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Advantages/Disadvantages of various WM sharpeners

Started by WoodenHead, October 04, 2013, 10:17:11 PM

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WoodenHead

I've searched and read through a number of posts about blade sharpening.  Some of you feel that it is a pain and would prefer to send blades out (WM re-sharp or local business) while others see it as an opportunity to save money.  Anyway, Woodmizer seems to have made a number of sharpeners over the years.  There are several new models to choose from and older machines seem to be different again.  I was wondering if anyone can tell me what the differences are and what advantages/disadvantages are of the various kinds. 

Some have posted in the past that sharpening is slow, while others seem to be able to sharpen a good number of blades per hour.  Is it the model and/or age of the machine that gives such a variety of responses? 

I'm still looking for a local shop to sharpen.  The re-sharp program in Canada is not like it is in the US.  Even shipping is about $2-3 per blade each way.  The closest local guy charges $17-$18/blade (set and sharpen).  Between the blades I've purchased and the ones I got with my used mill, I have about 100 blades that now need to be sharpened.  So, it is time I dealt with the situation.

Magicman

Quote from: WoodenHead on October 04, 2013, 10:17:11 PMI have about 100 blades that now need to be sharpened.  So, it is time I dealt with the situation.
:o  I certainly agree with that statement.  10 dull blades and they are immediately off to WM Resharp.   ;D  Your sharpening decision will probably be based on your blade usage.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Brucer

No Resharp in Canada so I used a guy in Salmon Arm. He was great. Then he retired.

The guy who bought him out was terrible. He botched my first set of blades, so he offered to resharpen them and cover the cost of shipping both ways. Fair enough, but they still wouldn't cut straight. Took them to the local pole mill for an opinion and the sawyer found the teeth were off 10 thou from one side to the other :o. So that was the end of that guy as far as I was concerned.

Then another guy started up a sharpening business in Salmon Arm and he was pretty good. But he started to get overloaded so he bought some new sharpening and setting equipment and his quality began to go downhill. He would resharpen a blade that didn't cut well at no cost, but I still paid for shipping the blade.

At the end of last season I added up all my costs, including timbers that were damaged when a freshly sharpened blade would dive into the wood. I figured out that if I bought 60 blades at a time the 15% discount on the blades plus the reduced shipping charges would put my cost per new blade at exactly the same level as my sharpening charges. So I decided I would just buy new blades and toss them when they were dull :(.

Not long after I bought my first bulk order of blades I had a chance to borrow the sharpening and setting equipment from an outfit that had shut down their Wood-Mizer. It was well used so I rebuilt it all and set about sharpening my own blades. It took a few tries to get it right but all in all it wasn't that hard.

I was using Wood-Mizer's older style drag sharpener. I started off by removing very small amounts of metal on each pass, and making multiple passes -- about 5 for a blade that hadn't been sharpened before and 3 for a previously sharpened blade.

Eventually I got around to using the old single tooth setter. That was slow going at first but once I got the hang of it things went pretty quickly.

I would still prefer to have the blades sharpened by someone else. But I seem to have got through my first season OK and I have not had a single blade dive or go astray on me :).

At some point I'm going to have to either buy the borrowed equipment, or give it back and buy something new. The CBN grinder is very attractive because it eliminates having to dress the grinding wheel. However, I think the oil-based coolant is going to be a problem with my indoor shop.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Bibbyman

I had experience years ago with the stone wheel "drag" sharpener - bought new in 94 because Woodmizer didn't have a ReSharp service.  It worked fine and many still in use.  Advantage is that used ones can stills be found at reasonable price.  Disadvantage is that they take some skill level to shape the stone and keep it dressed.  The stone wheel wears with every use so you have to keep on top of the stone maintenance.  Another advantage is that a number of cams were available to change from one profile gullet to another - even blades by other manufacturs.

We sold that sharper when we started using ReSharp.  Then shipping cost got so high we decided to buy the Woodmizer CBN sharpener that was an updated version of the old stone model. Now not made but maybe used ones available.

Advantage, the CBN cutting wheel never needs profiling and it cuts the whole gullet in one chop cut so it is very consistent and matches the Woodmizer blade profile perfect.  Does a beautiful job.

Disadvantage is that the CBN wheels are expensive and they only fit the Woodmizer blade profile.  As Woodmizer blades come in many gullet profiles, you would need a different CBN wheel for each.

Another disadvantage is that it uses oil to cool and clean the wheel.  The oil is far more expensive than water!  But you don't discard it.  It is lost through some flying off the wheel in the form of vapor and some is left on the blade.

Despite the higher costs of the CBN system,   I would never go back to the stone grinder.  The wheels last forever (so far) and the oil does go a long way - it's just messy.

I've not used the latest grinders from Woodmizer.  They look much better design than the one we have.   

Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Peter Drouin

Get a WM CBN and not look back , they're the best. 8)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Larry

Quote from: Bibbyman on October 05, 2013, 05:15:54 AM
Disadvantage is that the CBN wheels are expensive and they only fit the Woodmizer blade profile.

I've been talking with ReSharp and they now offer wheels for some of the other manufacture profiles.  I didn't ask which ones.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

WoodenHead

Quote from: Brucer on October 05, 2013, 03:09:52 AM
At the end of last season I added up all my costs, including timbers that were damaged when a freshly sharpened blade would dive into the wood. I figured out that if I bought 60 blades at a time the 15% discount on the blades plus the reduced shipping charges would put my cost per new blade at exactly the same level as my sharpening charges. So I decided I would just buy new blades and toss them when they were dull :(.

That's where I'm at Brucer.  By the time I figure everything in, I might as well buy new blades (60 at a time).  But knowing that these blades still have life is driving me crazy. 

Quote from: Peter Drouin on October 05, 2013, 05:44:57 AM
Get a WM CBN and not look back , they're the best. 8)

The question is which one?   :D  Woodmizer seems to offer three new ones BMS500, 250 and 200, plus the CBN shop series.

I have seen people post that sharpening blades (like milling) is a skill that takes time to develop.  Others say there is nothing to it.  Seems to me that the machine does most of the work.  Do people have more difficulty with setting rather than sharpening?

bandmiller2

Woody in your situation it would pay to sharpen your own. There are other sharpeners than WM.I get 10 or 12 sharpenings per band and that really takes a bite out of costs.I use a Cooks cats claw with blue ceramic wheels and seldom redress,they last a long time.As said before it depends on how much cutting you do.You could also sell your once used bands here. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

dgdrls

Good morning Gentlemen,

I am of the thought, if you're going to sharpen your own, you should be able to set them also.
With that said, I would also look to Cooks for a sharpener and dual setter set-up for a comparison.

DGDrls

Bibbyman

A good argument can be made to buying new blades and pitching them.  I think the original concept was that the blades were disposable.   

On that line of thinking,   Woodmizer makes the Silvertip brand that is less expensive.  I've thought they were disposable but many resharpen them.

If you could find another sawyer that sharpens his own blades, maybe you could sale the once used blades at half price?  Then I know you'd be time and money ahead to buy new.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Happycamper

I'm with Brucer on this one. I took took my blades to the fellow in Salmon Arm and he did a poor job on them. So I went back and he said the blades were just fine so I brought them home and hand set them (thanks pineywoods) and sharped them with a good quality round file (not us or Canada) made and a Carborundum stone by hand. No machine involved. It only take a few minutes to go around the band as I resharpen as soon as there is a given amount of resistance of the head going through the log. Every 3rd or 4th sharpening I remove more material to bring it back to shape. This system has worked very well for the past 5 months. It took a little doing, skill and patience, but necessity being the mother of invention I had no choice other than buying new blades continually. Keep in mind I am no production sawyer but do saw a fair bit and it is all fir. My mill is the little one lt10 and we have learned to get along together very well after my break in period.
  Brucer if you do not buy that equipment I might be interested if it is for sale.
  Woodenhead, What length blades do you have? If I could use them I'd be interested in buying them from you if they would fit my saw.
                                    Jim
Wether you think you can or you can't you're right

pineywoods

Hopefully, there may be another option sometime in the future. I have in the works a home made sharpener based on a cheap chain saw chain sharpener. Think it can be built for somewhere around $100. Should make a good companion for the cheap dual tooth setter. Now cooks and woodmizer have no reason to loose sleep about competition, this thing is mostly manual and will be nowhere near as good as the cheapest commercial sharpener. If it works halfway decent, I will post pics and drawings.
I don't really need another sharpener, I have one of the old woodmizer drag type machines. There is definitely a learning curve, but once you master that, it does a good job. I like to sharpen my blades before they get real dull, one or 2 light passes and they cut like new. Two troublesome problems with it. Learning to keep the stone dressed properly was a real headache. Get the stone shaped properly and then use it to grind a slot in a piece of thin sheet metal to make a template. Keep the stone shaped to that template. The other problem is sloppy bearings in the grinder motor, allows end play in the motor shaft. That lets the stone move sideways when grinding the face of the tooth. Face angle varies all over the place. On my to-do list is replace the little 12 volt grinder motor with a heavier ac motor.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Nomad

     All this is a bit off topic. 
     I know one commercial sawmill (WoodMizer saw) that refuses to resharpen blades.  He tried re-sharp, didn't like it, tried a couple of local services, didn't like them, and now considers his used blades disposable.  I don't know the brand or style bands he's using, but he's been doing this for years.
     Personally, I enjoy sharpening bands.  But I've always enjoyed sharpening my knives too.
     Setting is at least as important as sharpening.  It's a learning curve to get it right.  I don't care how sharp your blades are; if they're set poorly they'll cut poorly.
     I'm using WoodMizer bands exclusively.  I played around with a number of different manufacturers and settled on WoodMizer.  Not right or wrong; just my personal decision.
     I've got a Cook's Cat Claw sharpener with several different cams.  I've got a Cook's dual tooth setter.  And I've got a WM shop series CBN sharpener.
     If you want to play around with different profiles, or change profiles on your bands, or sharpen different bands without changing the profile the drag type Cooks sharpener is much more versatile. 
     If you want to stick to one manufacturer and don't mind buying different wheels for different profiles (if you choose to use more than one profile) the the drop 'n chop style sharpener is much easier to use.
Buying a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter
WoodMizer LT50HDD51-WR
Lucas DSM23-19

Brucer

Quote from: Happycamper on October 05, 2013, 09:13:01 AM
...  Brucer if you do not buy that equipment I might be interested if it is for sale. ...

He is trying to sell his mill, and he's offering the sharpener and setter as an optional part of the package. Basically, if someone wants to buy the mill but only if a sharpener comes with it, then the sharpener will get sold.

If the person buying the mill doesn't want a sharpener, then I've offered to buy it.

So, unless you want to buy a well used, electric Super Hydraulic, I'm afraid you're out of luck  :D.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Slingshot


    This must be Wood-mizer's first blade sharpener. Found on U-tube;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnkTHaJNhwQ




_______________________


Larry

ElectricAl with more toys. :D

That's the first time I've ever heard of or seen an equalizer.  Maybe we can get him to comment on it.  I wonder if it would help by using it before going to a dual tooth setter.

I have one of those pliers type setters.  Used it on one band before I hung it up.  Its been hanging for 20 years now. :D
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Peter Drouin

Woodenhead any CBN sharpener that has an oil bath. The oil  bath it the secret to get a sharp blade , you won't burn the top of the tooth :)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

WoodenHead

Quote from: Peter Drouin on October 05, 2013, 09:16:48 PM
Woodenhead any CBN sharpener that has an oil bath. The oil  bath it the secret to get a sharp blade , you won't burn the top of the tooth :)

Thanks Peter. 

I've seen a couple used sharpeners for sale (2005-2008).  Would they be CBN?  If it has an oil bath, is it a CBN sharpener?

Peter Drouin

I think the Wood Mizer is. Just ask if it has a stone wheel, if it has don't get it.
I have used both, and the CBN it's like black white.you can save money and get the rock one . But like the old saying you get what you pay for . I have over 800 sharping on my CBN and show no wear.will see how long it last :D and I think WM will redo the wheel for me. Put the stuff back on the wheel .
Whatever you do good luck. And the guys with the rock ones if it works for you and your happy. Then good luck to you too  :D :D ;)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

customsawyer

I run both the WM pro series CBN sharpener and the Cooks Sharpener. There are things that I like and dislike about both. There is a learning curve on both machines. To this day if I had to have just one sharpener I don't know which one I would pick.
Here is a short video of the two sharpeners side by side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qJOL0xb6VsY
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

ElectricAl

Larry,

We have to have a lot of "Toys" to entertain our subscribers. Plus it helps with FF topics.

In the video I called it a 1988, but it turned out to be a 1984.
I talked with a WM rep who's first job was assembling the Sharpeners in 1984.

We have been using a Drag Sharpener for 20 years. Currently using our second one.
The reason we are still Dragging is I change hook angle. As high as 15 and down to 4.

A huge advantage for us in using the Drag Sharpener is to knock the burs off of Nail Blades.
We saw a lot of nails every year.  By knocking off the bur off with the stone the blade can finish a cut , or be sacrificed to get through another nail(s).
WM advises not to grind nail blades. The burs will damage the CBN wheel.

In the future a new CBN will be added to our collection of stuff.  The CBN will just have 2 wheels. A 7* and a 10* .  Other profiles will be done on the Drag Sharpener.


Now a little tid bit of information  ~   WM is working on plans to Manufacture the CBN wheels in Indy. 
This should allow the price of the CBN wheel to drop some. Plus the more wheels they sell will help control cost of manufacturing.
Linda and I custom saw NHLA Grade Lumber, do retail sales, and provide Kiln Services full time.

Peter Drouin

All that cutting Electricai and you don't use a metal detector.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

ElectricAl

Peter, 
We have a metal detector.  Problem is the wood is so dense metal is only found in the first 6" from the surface.
Then if it is 5" down we have to butcher the log with a chain saw and hope not to hit the metal with the chain.

So it boils down to a simple economic decision.  It is cheaper to just saw the log and cut the nail than spend the time scanning and digging and risking the chain on the Stihl.   Plus there is some value lost in the butchered lumber.

When we saw through a nail there normally is only the hole for the nail and a little gray stain. Still a sellable board.

Linda and I custom saw NHLA Grade Lumber, do retail sales, and provide Kiln Services full time.

Peter Drouin

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

stavebuyer

We go through a lot of blades. We run Wood-Mizer DoubleHard 1 1/2" .055s and send them to back to Re-sharp one time and then pitch them. We change blades about every two hours unless we dull one on something first. We saw a lot of slow growth Chestnut Oak and it can be hard. We use new blades on it and use the re-sharpened blades on the easier logs like red oak and poplar.

Our experience has been that the re-sharpened blades don't perform quite as well or last as long as new ones. When we compare the production gain against the cost of 4 employees standing around prying a broken blade out of the sawdust chute we feel we are at least as well off to be sawing.

bandmiller2

Staver brings up a good point,bands are chump change when you have a crew standing around idle. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Biggreenavalanche

any comments about, or experience with, the "automatic" sharpeners...TK advertises one...what is "automatic" ?

V/R

Rich

Peter Drouin

Quote from: stavebuyer on October 07, 2013, 07:21:26 AM
We go through a lot of blades. We run Wood-Mizer DoubleHard 1 1/2" .055s and send them to back to Re-sharp one time and then pitch them. We change blades about every two hours unless we dull one on something first. We saw a lot of slow growth Chestnut Oak and it can be hard. We use new blades on it and use the re-sharpened blades on the easier logs like red oak and poplar.

Our experience has been that the re-sharpened blades don't perform quite as well or last as long as new ones. When we compare the production gain against the cost of 4 employees standing around prying a broken blade out of the sawdust chute we feel we are at least as well off to be sawing.



you haven't seen hard till you get a oak thats frozen at -20 :D :D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

ElectricAl

Peter,

We saw 80% Hardwood and 20% Softwood most years. However every couple years we'll be 50/50

Our primary business is Custom Sawing, so we saw what is shipped in.

Oak, Maple, Ash, Hickory, Cherry, Walnut, Locust, Osage, Mulberry, Box elder, Pine, Cedar, recycled Beams, Power Poles.
Plus Nails, Rocks, Concrete, Porcelain Insulators, Railroad Spikes, Lag bolts, Tire Chains, Fence Wire, Musket Balls, Bullets, Racoon, Mice, Gofer, Ants, Wasps,

BTW I'd rather saw a -30 White Oak than a -10 Hard Maple any day.


ElectricAl
Linda and I custom saw NHLA Grade Lumber, do retail sales, and provide Kiln Services full time.

Peter Drouin

Quote from: ElectricAl on October 07, 2013, 09:19:46 PM
Peter,

We saw 80% Hardwood and 20% Softwood most years. However every couple years we'll be 50/50

Our primary business is Custom Sawing, so we saw what is shipped in.

Oak, Maple, Ash, Hickory, Cherry, Walnut, Locust, Osage, Mulberry, Box elder, Pine, Cedar, recycled Beams, Power Poles.
Plus Nails, Rocks, Concrete, Porcelain Insulators, Railroad Spikes, Lag bolts, Tire Chains, Fence Wire, Musket Balls, Bullets, Racoon, Mice, Gofer, Ants, Wasps,

BTW I'd rather saw a -30 White Oak than a -10 Hard Maple any day.


ElectricAl

well , you saw it all. I must be to pickey what I saw  :D :D  ;D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

bandmiller2

Biggreen when they say automatic they mean once the sharpener is adjusted it feeds the band around on its own.Some sharpeners are manual you must advance the band and pull the grinder into each tooth. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Bibbyman

Quote from: stavebuyer on October 07, 2013, 07:21:26 AM
We go through a lot of blades. We run Wood-Mizer DoubleHard 1 1/2" .055s and send them to back to Re-sharp one time and then pitch them. We change blades about every two hours unless we dull one on something first. We saw a lot of slow growth Chestnut Oak and it can be hard. We use new blades on it and use the re-sharpened blades on the easier logs like red oak and poplar.

Our experience has been that the re-sharpened blades don't perform quite as well or last as long as new ones. When we compare the production gain against the cost of 4 employees standing around prying a broken blade out of the sawdust chute we feel we are at least as well off to be sawing.

We have a friend that ran an LT300 and he followed the same plan - resharp once and then pitch. He sawed oak and had the logs debarked before before entering mill.  The thick blades had a reasonable chance of breaking on third run. The cost to make an unscheduled stop and and clear a broken blade outweighed the possible savings.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

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