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Castrol R oil

Started by sablatnic, October 03, 2013, 02:45:55 PM

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sablatnic

A friend came with a hedge trimmer and a grass trimmer, which he couldn't start. I dismantled the carburettors for a look, and found this. He had been using Castrol R oil, which obviously didn't agree too well with present days fuel.
What has happened? Have the gasoline reduced the oil to water, acid or to something else?










AdkStihl

J.Miller Photography

sablatnic

It must be ethanol when mixed with gas then. I have run a lot of engines on ethanol mixed with castor oil, with no ill effects.

sablatnic

Sorry, wasn't ethanol but methanol. Could be the reason for the different outcome.

AdkStihl

Quote from: sablatnic on October 03, 2013, 03:14:29 PM
Sorry, wasn't ethanol but methanol. Could be the reason for the different outcome.

Ethanol absorbs water. That's why the rust on the retaining screw and the oxidation of the metering lever.

J.Miller Photography

AdkStihl

Quote from: sablatnic on October 03, 2013, 03:14:29 PM
Could be the reason for the different outcome.
Shouldnt be..... any alcohol will attract moisture.
One of the potential drawbacks of using high concentrations of methanol (and other alcohols, such as ethanol) in fuel is the corrosivity to some metals of methanol, particularly to aluminium. Methanol, although a weak acid, attacks the oxide coating that normally protects the aluminum from corrosion:
6 CH3OH + Al2O3 → 2 Al(OCH3)3 + 3 H2O
The resulting methoxide salts are soluble in methanol, resulting in a clean aluminium surface, which is readily oxidized by dissolved oxygen. Also, the methanol can act as an oxidizer:
6 CH3OH + 2 Al → 2 Al(OCH3)3 + 3 H2
This reciprocal process effectively fuels corrosion until either the metal is eaten away or the concentration of CH3OH is negligible. Concerns with methanol's corrosivity have been addressed by using methanol-compatible materials, and fuel additives that serve as corrosion inhibitors.
J.Miller Photography

sablatnic

Makes sense, and perfectly matches the result.
Thanks!


AdkStihl

Never heard of Castrol R ?
J.Miller Photography

sablatnic

It is a castor based oil sold by Castrol, and was used for racing in days gone by. It has the most fantastic smell!
It might be possible to feed it into the muffler, to get the smell without the bad effects to the engine.

Al_Smith

Those carbs look like they had a dip in the Atlantic ocean or great salt lake .What ever caused the problem it didn't happen over night .

HolmenTree

Like Al said it has been sitting in that mix for s long time. Looks like the Caster bean oil which is biodegradable left some heavy gum deposits.
In the  early 1980's I raced saws with alcohol / Castrol R mix, very good mix to go with alcohol fuel very strong film under high heat conditions.You just can't let it sit for long In your carb.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Al_Smith

I kid you not I've taken apart carbs from old saws that sat 25 years on a barn floor that didn't look that bad .Wow!

Even if water had gotten in it shouldn't look that bad because the oil in the fuel should have left a film on the innards .Then  again it is caster bean oil and I have no idea if it might have caused some kind of a chemical reaction which is quite possible .

Good heavens I'm going to have to pull the carb on the 580 Westbend kart engine to see if it looks that bad .I certainly hope not .

sablatnic

There was no water in the gas to see, and both machines were used a few weeks ago. I have seen bad things before, but this is close to the top!
It isn't gum deposits, it is corrosion, best to see in the close ups of the arms. The chrome has peeled off the arms, and the body is deeply pitted.

Al_Smith

At the risk of sounding like a smart alec it looks like some acid condition .

JohnG28

That looks really bad. How much crap was in the strainer? It does look like acid got at it, must have been some really bad fuel.  ::) You say you've seen worse?!?
Stihl MS361, 460 & 200T, Jonsered 490, Jonsereds 90, Husky 350 & 142, Homelite XL and Super XL

Al_Smith

I just noticed,Denmark .I was under the impression Denmark has that special formulation of gasoline ,Aspen or something like that .I was also under the impression it did not contain ethanol .

Delving deeper it would almost appear the fuel was contaminated with something  to cause a condition shown in those pictures .

sablatnic

You are right about Aspen, and I only use that on my saws, but this guy wanted to be nice to his machinery, so he used high octane with the best oil, he could get, Castrol R!
Not much to see in the strainers, but that side looked just as bad. And yes, I have seen worse, but only when using fuel with water. Or pure water.
Oh, and the brush cutter, which had been fuelled with battery acid!!

I too have saws of 30 - 40 - 50 years of age, which don't look like that.  It has to be his fuel, which turned into a monster!

HolmenTree

Quote from: sablatnic on October 03, 2013, 10:43:05 PM
It isn't gum deposits, it is corrosion, best to see in the close ups of the arms. The chrome has peeled off the arms, and the body is deeply pitted.
Gum deposits can turn into corrosion. That biodegradable caster bean oil Castrol R will break down over time as any other veggie oil will causing acid formation etc.
I have no experience with aspen gas but that possibly may have also caused a  chemical reaction too with the caster oil.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Al_Smith

Regular castor oil with menthanol,nitromethane was the fuel standard  for years on racing two cycles until they came up with synthetic  oils .I still til this day remember the smell of castor from the go karts .I don't however remember them having problems like in those pictures .

tolman_paul

I can't see that being an issue with castor oil.  I've run castor oil in rc engines and kart engines for decades and have rebuilt a few kart engine carbs that had been sitting for years.

When castor dries it does leave a nasty tenacous gum that is like a layer of laquer that coats everything and gums up the works but good!  But I've never seen such corrosion and there was definately some sort of acid formed to do that much damage.

The thing with alcohol in fuel is even if you don't see water in the fuel, the alcohol has such afinity for water it will latch onto moisture in the air and the water will be disolved in the alcohol so you don't see any seperatrion of water in the fuel.

Al_Smith

I remember in the early  60's those karts got slicked down with oil film.The poor guys at the end of the pack looked like oil field workers at the end of a feature race .

That blue haze seemed to hover about 5-6 feet above the track surface .You couldn't hardly see the karts on the far turns .

sablatnic

About Aspen fuel. It is bought ready mixed, and has a guaranteed life of two years, but will last much longer.

This guy bought normal high octane at the local gas station, and mixed it with the Castrol oil.

I used to burn castor oil and methanol in my saws, no problems, and no problems either when I flew model planes on methanol castor mix. I would guess that the lousy gas ethanol mix did something to the oil. And it smelled so good!

Al_Smith

Well if the guy has any fuel left it would be easy enough to tell .Dump some in a container and throw some steel bolts in the mix ,aluminum siding nails ,old beer cans .If they turn funky that would tell the tale .

sablatnic

I cannot make that test. I told him to get rid of the stuff, and he just did that. Used it to start a fire, some branches and stuff.

Little Al

Quote from: AdkStihl on October 03, 2013, 03:18:12 PM
Quote from: sablatnic on October 03, 2013, 03:14:29 PM
Sorry, wasn't ethanol but methanol. Could be the reason for the different outcome.

Ethanol absorbs water. That's why the rust on the retaining screw and the oxidation of the metering lever.
Castrol R [or any castor bean oil] is hydroscopic it can in certain circumstances absorb up to six times it`s weight of water so I`d guess combined with fuel containing ethanol [& not drained is a sure recipe for the OP`s photo`s]

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