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Assessing condition of old Oaks

Started by grweldon, September 17, 2013, 02:58:14 PM

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grweldon

Considering the question RPowers posed in his recent thread about his Oaks, I am now wondering about the condition of several huge Oak trees I have on my property.  I haven't yet determined what type of Oak any of them are, but I know of two that are at least 36" DBH.  Both have large branches for the first sets, anywhere between 18" and 24" in diameter with butt logs that would be about 12' long.

In order to determine variety I suppose I need an acorn cluster, a few leaves and a shot of the bark, correct?

What should I be looking for when examining for signs of declining health?  I had really just thought that I would leave these trees standing, but now I am wondering if this is a wise choice.  I'll bet I could get hundreds, if not thousands of board feet of quartersawn lumber out of these large trees.

I want to do the right thing, whatever that may be.  I hate to fell such a large trees but if they are declining now and will deterioriate to the point of no useful lumber at all, maybe the right thing is to remove them.  Advice and opinions would be welcomed...  I can provide pictures if needed/requested.  Thanks y'all...
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

mesquite buckeye

Signs of decline- Reduced rate of growth, especially at the crown level. Death of highest twigs. Leaf drop unusually early or leaf out unusually late. Off color of leaves during the growing season. Low leaf density, especially at the crown level. Loss of larger branches. Low reproduction. Growing season wilting.

Signs of degrade- Evidence of seepage or hollow core at or near the stump level. Cavities from old, lost branches. Cat faces (old lightning injuries). Evidence of insect infestation of trunk. Conks anywhere on the tree (shelf fungus- most are heart rotters). Large, dead branches or stubs.

Lots of tradeoff from what is going on. For me, any sign of major degrade, such as wetwood, hollows and so on make that tree a priority for removal. Same with any tree in severe decline for whatever reason.

Good questions to ask are: Is this tree growing faster than it is rotting? Is there another nearby tree or trees of good health and quality to take up this void in the canopy if this tree is removed.

Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

WDH

Take some pics of some leaves and the bark. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Clark

I would say most people jump the gun on removing trees because they are "too old". The crown is the best place to watch.  If the crown looks unhealthy then the tree is probably unhealthy.  One caveat with oak: around here certain galls will have outbreak years and the bur oak can look very poor, especially in late summer.  Leaves will be brown and curling, some dropping early; looks like the tree is about to die.  Next year the crown will look just fine.  So with oak I would give it two and preferably three years of poor crown before I started the chainsaw.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

WmFritz

Quote from: Clark on September 17, 2013, 09:11:42 PM
  One caveat with oak: around here certain galls will have outbreak years and the bur oak can look very poor, especially in late summer.  Leaves will be brown and curling, some dropping early; looks like the tree is about to die.  Next year the crown will look just fine.  So with oak I would give it two and preferably three years of poor crown before I started the chainsaw.

Clark

That pretty well describes a few of my bigger reds last year. I was really worried I was losing them. This summer they look as healthy as ever.   smiley_hellow_im_here
~Bill

2012 Homebuilt Bandmill
1959 Detroit built Ferguson TO35

grweldon

I finally got around to taking some pictures of the oak in question.  I'm in the process of clearing out the brush from around it so I can attach a single rope swing to one of the large branches for the kids.  Oh, who and I trying to kid, it's really for me but I tell the kids it is for them!  Anyway...

Here are a few shots.  This tree is about 42" DBH.  According to the guidelines posted above, I see a few signs of decline... rotted branches, a bit of dark coloring under one of the rotted off branches (4th pic).  Being so large, if I cut it I'd have to quater it with a chainsaw before milling.  That's a lot of work and this tree has so much character.

Tell me what y'all think...


Much brush to clear to be able to get a good view...



My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

mesquite buckeye

Pretty neat old wolf tree. Probably not the best lumber anyway, although you might get some cool slabs if it isn't hollow. ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

thecfarm

Probably a tree like that will still be there 50 years from now.
I made a swing,2 adults can swing on it. The kids love it. I made it out of metal and used boards for the seat.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

beenthere

Suspect rot inside, is what I think.
Cut or not cut ?  I would leave it and swing on it.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

grweldon

I know I mentioned cutting, but I would have a hard time cutting a tree like this just for sentimentality reasons.  I would guess this tree is about 150 years old, possibly more?  My land is terraced but not in this area.  I'm thinking this tree was just a fast-growing seedling when our ancestors were just starting to cross the continent by rail.

I guess I'd really like to know if there is anything I can or should do to prolong it's longevity...
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

grweldon

Quote from: mesquite buckeye on October 14, 2013, 09:15:28 AM
Pretty neat old wolf tree. Probably not the best lumber anyway, although you might get some cool slabs if it isn't hollow. ;D

Pardon my ignorance... what is an "old wolf" tree?

Just did a bit of digging on the net... here's what I came up with...

http://blog.audubonguides.com/2011/12/08/lone-wolf-trees

http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/a-place-for-wolf-trees
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

mesquite buckeye

I used to think of cleaning them all out to get more timber production. I did remove many smaller future wolf trees to allow for more timber production. I was concerned about the danger of felling the really big ones and the difficulty of milling them into something. This delay allowed me the time to learn more about them. There were probably 8-10 of them on my 80 acres.  They are definitely interesting, and I have watched them now for 22 seasons. We get lots of them along the forest margin against open land. Their rigid, massive form seems to be useful as something solid to reduce wholesale blowdowns in the forest, as the tall, thin trees are quite susceptible. There are dens in many of them. Finally, one by one they are getting old and dying, then falling to pieces and fertilizing the next generation of trees. As I look back in time, I remember lots of big dead snags scattered through the forest when I first saw this land 40 years ago. This process of the old big ones dying off is ongoing.

Finally (really this time), the last reason to leave the old wolf trees. They make great landmarks and can be seen from a distance, helping to keep people from getting lost in the forest. ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

WDH

It is a water oak.  Quercus nigra.  It definitely has heart rot.  I would let it stay there and grow so that you and the kids can enjoy it.  They will remember this old tree many years down the road.  That would be a good post, "Trees that I remember from childhood"
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

grweldon

Danny, I'm certainly not doubting your ID.  I'd like to know what the clues were to make the ID as I didn't see any clear leaf outlines in the pictures I posted.  Also, how do you tell that it definitely has heart rot?

There is a somewhat smaller oak about 100' from this one then another about 200' in the opposite direction from it.  I'd like to take pics of them and post them here for general comments also.

From my uneducated observations last year I figured that I had quite a few water oaks on the property, but most of what I found was less that 12" dia.  I think I also have black oak, pin oak and live oak on the property.  Possibly a willow oak or two.

I'll take some pictures of my "old wolf trees" and post in this thread.
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

mesquite buckeye

I think "Old Wolf Trees" would make a good new thread title. Then it wouldn't be limited to just oaks. Just thinkin' ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Weekend_Sawyer

If it's not in the way why not leave it.
It's a great old tree.
Imagine, Me a Tree Farmer.
Jon, Appalachian American Wannabe.

WDH

Now that you bring it up, the leaves that I was focused on in the last pic are probably from a near-by sapling.  Even so, the bark indicates that it is either water oak, willow oak, or laurel oak.  The bark has a more willow oaky look, so that is my final guess  ;D. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Texas Ranger

Kinda like an old bird dog, leave it be till absolutely needs to come down.  The memories will last a lot longer then the fire wood it would produce.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

grweldon

Quote from: WDH on October 15, 2013, 08:19:52 PM
Now that you bring it up, the leaves that I was focused on in the last pic are probably from a near-by sapling.  Even so, the bark indicates that it is either water oak, willow oak, or laurel oak.  The bark has a more willow oaky look, so that is my final guess  ;D.

Oh yeah, I forgot about Laurel Oak...  I think I have some of those as well.  I'm guessing it's not a Willow Oak.  I'll get some leaf shots so we can finalize the determination.  I'm going to tag this tree!
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

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