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circular sawmill power units???

Started by mikes47jeep, September 09, 2013, 10:18:00 PM

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mikes47jeep

hi all

i started shopping around for a power unit for my 1927 Ireland Mill

48" circular blade

a local junkyard got all of asplundh tree service's old chippers

i have the opportunity to get a complete power unit off one with rockford PTO clutch

my question it what one do you think would be best as far as running the mill efficiently?

there are 4 different engines on these chippers
4 cyl perkins Diesel
4 cyl kubota Diesel
4 cyl ford gas
6 cyl ford gas (i beleve to be a ford 300)

I am kind of leaning towards the ford 6 cyl gas, just because i am semi familiar with this engine

any advice would be appreciated

regards

Mike 
Ireland No.2 Left Hand Sawmill 48" blade

ddcuning

Mike,
I would always lean towards a diesel. Very durable and good torque. Most of the circle mills around this area are running Detroit Diesel 53 or 71 series engines. Most folks like the Detroit engines because of them being two cycle. Provides smooth power for sawmills and good torque. I was headed that way with my Frick until the deal fell through and I converted a 6 cylinder Cummins to do the job.

Dave C
We're debt free!!! - Dave C, Nov 2015

pineywoods

If you have natural gas available, I would say go with the 6 cyl ford and pipe natural gas into it. They will run practically forever, plenty of power, gobs of low end torque. Be sure to get the governor off the chipper.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

sawguy21

The diesel is the winner here because of the torque although the gas engines would likely do well. You say the chippers have been scrapped, why? Can you do compression checks and run them up before forking over the cash? Industrial engines are pricey to rebuild.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

bandmiller2

Mike the 300 ford six is a good rugged engine and has the moxie especially if its set up with a good governor.If your a part time sawyer it may be your best option but if your planning to do a lot of milling it will eat you out of house and home.Diesel is always a better more economical engine to run fuel wise but if parts are required their expensive.If diesel I'd pick the best runner first or if the same the most HP,for intermittent use consider the 300 six.Possibly buy the whole chipper and belt up the chipper head for slabs. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

SPD748

Both of the diesels you listed are very good engines. Do you know the ratings on them? I would suspect a 48" blade would require a minimum of 75 hp to keep the rpms steady in the cut. I vote +1 to buy the whole chipper to handle slabs later.

-lee
Frick 0 Handset - A continuing project dedicated to my Dad.

410 Deere, 240 Massey... I really need a rough terrain forklift :)

Sawing Since 1-19-2013 @ 3:30 pm
Serving Since 2002
"Some police officers give tickets, some gave all."

sealark37

If you plan to run more that a couple of hours per week, you need the diesel for fuel efficiency.  Parts for the Perkins come from several sources, while parts for the Kubota come from Kubota ($).  Both are excellent power units, so the devil is in the details, (price, hours of service, condition, etc.).  I would only consider the gas units if I had natural gas available, as noted above.    Good Luck, and Regards, Clark

Dave_

I ran a Perkins on my Belsaw with a 48" blade and it ran like a sewing machine.  A very sweet engine, indeed.  Perkins are found prolifically in marine applications where they have to answer the call.  They are primarily supported by Cat and, like other diesels, the parts are spendy.  As stated earlier, torque is a very important factor along with fuel economy.  My Perkins would saw all day on less than 5 gal. of fuel.

schmism

skip the perkins.  support for them in the US is difficult at best unless you have a good friend at a CAT dealer.

i cant imagine the kubota 4cyl is more than 60 hp.   3L is roughly 60hp  4L is roughly 75hp  2L is roughly 45hp
039 Stihl 010AV  NH TC33D FEL, with toys

HPPDRoss

I power my mill with a 318ci 4cyl perkins out of a combine. It has plenty of power and is very good on fuel consumption. It also starts right up every time.

MRowsh

Diesel is the King, specially 4 and 6 in line Diesels.
In your availability case, I believe 50/50 between Perkins and Kubota.

What is the price difference?

Also, check to see if one or the other got turbo, pick the one with turbo.

Look at fuel and oil filter cost and availability in your area.

Which one holds more motor oil? Pick the one that takes more motor oil.

What type of fuel injection pump on each?  Perkins fuel injection pump on the 4 cyl is a little better.

You can not go wrong with any of the two Diesels!!
LogMaster LM2 with Kubota V1305 Diesel conversion.
There is a price for everything in life!!!  No free lunches!
Retired US Army.

mikes47jeep

Quote from: pineywoods on September 09, 2013, 10:49:24 PM
If you have natural gas available, I would say go with the 6 cyl ford and pipe natural gas into it. They will run practically forever, plenty of power, gobs of low end torque. Be sure to get the governor off the chipper.


good point, I am in the middle of the marcellus shale natural gas fields, the infrastructure for compressed natural gas and whatnot isn't here yet but I'm sure it will be when they finish drilling and start producing.

Quote from: schmism on September 10, 2013, 12:54:50 PM
skip the perkins.  support for them in the US is difficult at best unless you have a good friend at a CAT dealer.

i cant imagine the kubota 4cyl is more than 60 hp.   3L is roughly 60hp  4L is roughly 75hp  2L is roughly 45hp


another good point, CAT dosen't have many dealers in my area, and parts are $$$$$,  i believe the 4 cyl engines in those chippers are about 60 hp just because that is usually the average for a 9" chipper

the 12" chippers have the Ford 6 cyl gas engines, that average over 100 hp

Quote from: sawguy21 on September 09, 2013, 10:50:57 PM
The diesel is the winner here because of the torque although the gas engines would likely do well. You say the chippers have been scrapped, why? Can you do compression checks and run them up before forking over the cash? Industrial engines are pricey to rebuild.


it looks like all that are there have bad rust in spots, cracks in the trailer chassis, bent chutes, bent axels, ect.   some have butchered feed rollers. 

most of the engines look good, clean, no oil in coolant, or coolant in oil. very few if any leaks

i will get the unit running before i buy


most units were marked by the fleet mechanics reasons for scrap


keep the suggestions coming

thanks

Mike
Ireland No.2 Left Hand Sawmill 48" blade

pineywoods

Mike, the ford will run just fine with a line run to your house gas supply. There's several pluses.
cheap fuel
it burns very clean
engine oil doesn't get contaminated with combustion products
inexpensive conversion and you can leave the gasoline carb in place.

The only downside is..if the old ford is so old it ran on leaded gas, it may not have stellite valve seats. With no lead to lube the valves, they don't last long.
An industrial engine most likely has stellite seats.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

dgdrls

IF the only choice is petro based go diesel,  I'm a fan of the Deutz Air-cooled units.

If you have choice go electric, ;)

DGDrls


mikes47jeep

Quote from: pineywoods on September 10, 2013, 06:49:28 PM


The only downside is..if the old ford is so old it ran on leaded gas, it may not have stellite valve seats. With no lead to lube the valves, they don't last long.
An industrial engine most likely has stellite seats.

I've been messing with antique machinery for quite a while and i have never had an issue with valve seats, as long as the valves are set right and are properly seated never had one burn or anything because of the lack of lead ??? dont know if I've just been lucky or what?

all these chippers are from the 80's or newer so i would imagine they wouldn't mind unleaded
Ireland No.2 Left Hand Sawmill 48" blade

mikes47jeep

Quote from: dgdrls on September 10, 2013, 08:10:56 PM
IF the only choice is petro based go diesel,  I'm a fan of the Deutz Air-cooled units.

If you have choice go electric, ;)

DGDrls



HP is more of a factor than fuel type, i would love a diesel, but if a 4cyl dosent have the snot to run the mill well, i dont want it

and electric is out.... no 3 phase here

Mike
Ireland No.2 Left Hand Sawmill 48" blade

Dave_

Quote from: schmism on September 10, 2013, 12:54:50 PM
skip the perkins.  support for them in the US is difficult at best unless you have a good friend at a CAT dealer

Pekins Northwest is just north of me and have every part I could possibly need (if I have deep enough pockets :D).  I don't know about support back east but here in the west it is not a problem.  Also, I think UPS probably will ship back there ;) 

From my experience, "skipping the perkins" is painting with a pretty wide brush.  Just my two cents :)

ladylake

 Check out a combine boneyard , should be able to find a 6 cylinder diesel  with over 100 hp.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

mikes47jeep

Quote from: ladylake on September 12, 2013, 11:42:13 AM
Check out a combine boneyard , should be able to find a 6 cylinder diesel  with over 100 hp.  Steve

didn't think of that, a combine engine would be great, but i dont know of any combine boneyards here off hand
Ireland No.2 Left Hand Sawmill 48" blade

dgdrls

good resource here

http://www.barringtondieselclub.co.za/471DetroitDiesel.html

I think a 4-71 Detroit would drive a 48" blade quite well. A 4-71 T even better!

Lots of Detroit's out there tons of support and not as costly as some others.

IMHO I do not believe the other engines you listed will support your requirements very well,

DGDrls


SPD748

A 4-71 would drive a 48" blade nicely! You'd need to set the engine up for around 1800 rpm to develop enough power. Ahh... the sweet sound of a detroit... barking while the sawdust flies!

-lee
Frick 0 Handset - A continuing project dedicated to my Dad.

410 Deere, 240 Massey... I really need a rough terrain forklift :)

Sawing Since 1-19-2013 @ 3:30 pm
Serving Since 2002
"Some police officers give tickets, some gave all."

den

Homelite SuperXL, 360, Super2, Stihl MS251CB-E, Sotz M-20 20lb. Monster Maul, Wallenstein BXM-42

mikes47jeep

I'm looking at $900 to $1200 for one of those chipper engines, it's a big risk to me for a junkyard engine with an unknown history


however i was offered a Farmall M tractor, that was dynoed at 58 HP on the pto

what do you think?

Mike
Ireland No.2 Left Hand Sawmill 48" blade

dgdrls

I believe you will be short at 58 HP.

Found this computation for H.P. requirements 
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fputr/fputr10.pdf

DGDrls





SPD748

DETROIT DIESEL!!!

You're going to need 75 hp or more to drive that saw.

-lee
Frick 0 Handset - A continuing project dedicated to my Dad.

410 Deere, 240 Massey... I really need a rough terrain forklift :)

Sawing Since 1-19-2013 @ 3:30 pm
Serving Since 2002
"Some police officers give tickets, some gave all."

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