Handling logs at portable jobs

[NCDiesel]

On a few occasions I turned down portable jobs because log handling was required.   In fact, it is much more prevalent than I would have thought.

The reason I am asking is because this just happened again to me.  I just turned down a job I would have to have a tractor, arch, cable and a winch to handle.   In every case the customer assumes this is provided as part of my board foot fee and are shocked to learn I don't provide logging services.   This has happened now about 5-7 times.  So now I am wondering - maybe I 'm wrong?  Maybe I should expect to provide these services??  Judging from their shock when they learn this is not included in the board/foot price, I doubt I would have many takers anyways.

So I wanted to ask:  How many of you, on a regular basis, provide to your portable customers these extra-ordinary handling services (handling above and beyond moving them around the staging area)?   We'll all do it for our father-in-law, best friend, etc.   But how many provide this service as a matter of course?

Thanks in advance,

[Jim_Rogers]

NC:
I don't provide the service.
What I do is show them a drawing of how to make a log stack for the sawmill to be able to drive up/back up to, and then load the logs.

Many years ago, back in the 80's I use to "yard logs" for different sawmills and back then I got $25 per thousand to haul them out and stack them up.

I wouldn't know how to convert that to today's prices.

When I had a log truck on the road, on certain jobs, every once in a great while. I'd take the truck to the site and stack the logs to make it easier to work the mill and help the customer. One really big job I did over 8000 bdft, I split the "fee" with the customer as it was helpful to me and helpful to him to have me do it.

He had a bunch of trees cut down by a tree service. And then he told them that I was coming over to mill them up. So they offered him some logs to add to his pile. He accepted and then they dumped them out of a dump truck right in the driveway  where I was going to have to park the mill. So much so that I couldn't even start the job without moving some of them. I left the truck on site until I had everything moved to where I could easily roll them up onto the mill's lower arms.

I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say about this as well.

Jim Rogers

[drobertson]

For the most part, sawmilling is sawmilling, logging is logging, and with  no disrespect towards any customer, I believe most of them already know this. There have been a few occasions where an extra effort is made for individuals in a tight spot, we all have been there. These times just have to be weighed out,   david

[sawmillhand]

I agree saw milling and logging are separate I make sure and explain to have the logs piled up and already bucked to length they want,because I have now way of skidding logs to the mill and if I have to break the mill down for every log I would have to charge a lot more.

[Tom L]

I've always thought a good idea would be to have a 35 ft lowboy trailer. tow my mill onto the trailer with my tractor and take it to a jobsite. then park the trailer in the street and tow the mill with the tractor thru the 5 ft sideyard around the patio to the woods behind their shed and use the tractor to move logs that are scattered throughout the woods to the mill so I can mill into lumber.

if you could get paid for both machines it would be a way to make some more money at one site and get the job done. it would also help at some jobs where you show up and can't access the logs to mill them.
I just doubt that anyone would pay the extra money

[kelLOGg]

I have the same mill as you and, except for one occasion, I don't do log handling either. The exception was an interesting job where the big oak logs had to be rolled so I took my winch on the job. In general, I make it clear that I have to drive alongside the logs so my cable winch can parbuckle the log onto the mill.

Bob

[NCDiesel]

Thanks for all the feedback.   I have been sort of shocked at how many people assume that as long as the logs are all within 100 yards of each other they are a "stack".   "The trees are cut down - what more do you need?" is one exasperated comment I actually heard from a caller as he realized he should have had the tree removal company put the logs in one pile.

Keep all the great feedback coming.....

PS:  Cutting up some SYP tomorrow for a retired sawyer friend that wanted to get rid of the last logs on the property.   I need some barn loft flooring anyways and he has a big pettibone fork lift for moving logs into a nice pile :D

[Finn1903]

If it is rolling a log from one side of the yard to the other on flat grount I tell them there is a log handling fee.  I am fairly young so a little work for a little cash is not going to kill me, but the level of work has to be in reason, by that I mean using my cant hook, pickeroon, or worst case my rope winch with a moderate exertion.  If its dragging logs up a hill, I'll pass.

[pnyberg]

I have a Log-Rite Fetching arch with the option that allows me to attach it to the ball hitch on the back of my pickup truck.  I figured out a way to carry this on the mill, and I take to every job unless I'm very certain that I won't need it.  I'd guess that I use it to move logs to the mill for about 1/3rd of my jobs.  Once in while there will be a log in a place that I can't get the arch to, and I've used the truck, a chain, a rope, and sometimes a snatch-block to just drag the log into the clear.

Most of my customers are suburban home owners with zero ability to move logs.

-Peter

[scully]

the last job I did was in an old neighborhood The guy made the logs sound beautiful and easy to get at.... I got there to see a mess of chunked wood piled on top of some very poor logs that were anything but loadable . Thank the dear lord my cummins Ram was up for a little skidding etc . Over all I  should have probably declined the job . The lumber was horrable !

[Magicman]

I am portable and provide no log handling equipment.  I do not mind helping to (cant hook) roll logs to the mill or to use the sawmills log clamp to parbuckle (cross haul) logs.  I have used the truck winch or even the truck to adjust logs, but I am not in the skidding business.  It has never been a problem or cost me a sawing job.

Unlike pnyberg above, I live and work in a rural environment where everyone has tractors.

[Delawhere Jack]

It's a rare job that I don't have to move some logs, I bill the same hourly rate. Unlike Lynn, most of my clients don't have tractors, but I dream of the day that most of them do!  ;D

[Tom the Sawyer]

NCDiesel,

That many 'misunderstandings' about getting ready for milling day is certainly unusual.  It has happened to me but very rarely.  I always do a site visit prior to milling day.  I don't charge for the visit and I get a chance to see the logs and to make sure there is a suitable place to set up my mill.  I walk them through the process and get them thinking about where the slabs will go, handling the sawdust, how many helpers they will need, where they will build their stack and where the logs need to be in relation to the mill for the most efficient (and least expensive) operation.  It is also illustrated on my website.

Most of the time they are ready when I show up with the mill.  I have moved logs with my F350 a few times, usually to save a lot of labor rolling a log to the mill.  I allow a few minutes each for loading logs and if it takes much longer (moving them longer distances) it is billed by the hour.  I have never taken my log handling equipment to a job site to move their logs but I usually carry an extra cant hook with me and have loaned it out to help them get ready for milling day.   

At the site visit I have found logs scattered in different locations with them assuming that I can move from log to log to mill them.  I don't charge for the initial set up of the mill at a jobsite or the time it takes to pack up to go home.  I would charge for the time it takes to pack up the mill, hook up the truck, move the mill, unhook, set up and level the mill at the next log, etc.  I have only done so once and it made sense for his site.  Usually they have access to a tractor, or a helpful neighbor, and can get the logs into a common area.

I do have a Site Prep Fee which is an hourly charge for moving logs, bucking logs to length, limbing, etc.  I don't count it unless I have more than 15 minutes spent doing that type of work and, so far this year, it has only been a factor in 11% of my jobs.

NCD, that you have 'turned down' 5-7 jobs over this raises a couple of questions.  How did you get these prospective clients?  Is there something in your advertising, or word of mouth that would make them think you would take care of everything?  Were there any times when you explained what your service was limited to and where they were able to get their logs into an appropriate location for you to mill them?  Were these situations where you showed up with the mill and then turned down the job because they weren't ready to go - if so, how would they have known what was expected?  Hint: do a site visit.

Good luck with getting them educated.  It has to be very frustrating, both for you and for the client who thought he was going to get his milling done.

[Dave Shepard]

Like Tom says, it's education time. Anyone in a service business has to educate their clients. Some services are common enough that there is not a lot of confusion as to what is expected. Sawmilling is a different story. There are a lot of custom sawyers out their, but not compared to lawn services or accountants. A brochure with your pricing and services might help to get the word out as to what a custom sawyer does.

I don't do portable milling primarily for two reasons. First, I have a 24' bed extension, and I don't like to take that apart. My focus is sawing long timbers. Second, I don't want to go to a job without my support equipment, such as the backhoe and edger. If things don't go smoothly on a job, I just don't think I can offer an economical enough option for the customer. I'd rather have the logs trucked in and saw efficiently, than to have to make several extra trips to move auxiliary equipment. Now if you are customsawyer with the tractor and edger on the gooseneck with the Wood-Mizer in tow, you might make it work. I think I'd be in jail on the first trip around here with that rig. :D

[Chuck White]

With new customers, I will always go look at the logs before I move in with the mill.

If the logs are stacked properly, I'll let the customer know right then when I'll be in with my mill.  If they are not stacked I'll tell the customer that I'll come and look at them again when I get a call that they are stacked!

I don't handle logs, other than rolling them off the pile and to the mill.

In a rare case, I will sometimes hook a chain onto the end of a log to move it laterally, so it can be rolled onto my mill's loader!

I do not take extra equipment to a saw-site with me!

[Ga Mtn Man]

I have a Log-Rite Fetching arch with the option that allows me to attach it to the ball hitch on the back of my pickup truck.  I figured out a way to carry this on the mill, and I take to every job unless I'm very certain that I won't need it.  I'd guess that I use it to move logs to the mill for about 1/3rd of my jobs.  Once in while there will be a log in a place that I can't get the arch to, and I've used the truck, a chain, a rope, and sometimes a snatch-block to just drag the log into the clear.

Most of my customers are suburban home owners with zero ability to move logs.

-Peter

Peter-  How do you charge when you have to use the arch?

[dgdrls]

the last job I did was in an old neighborhood The guy made the logs sound beautiful and easy to get at.... I got there to see a mess of chunked wood piled on top of some very poor logs that were anything but loadable . Thank the dear lord my cummins Ram was up for a little skidding etc . Over all I  should have probably declined the job . The lumber was horrable !

Scully,  Is that the recent project I referred you to the owner??

DGDrls

[dgdrls]

On a few occasions I turned down portable jobs because log handling was required.   In fact, it is much more prevalent than I would have thought.

The reason I am asking is because this just happened again to me.  I just turned down a job I would have to have a tractor, arch, cable and a winch to handle.   In every case the customer assumes this is provided as part of my board foot fee and are shocked to learn I don't provide logging services.   This has happened now about 5-7 times.  So now I am wondering - maybe I 'm wrong?  Maybe I should expect to provide these services??  Judging from their shock when they learn this is not included in the board/foot price, I doubt I would have many takers anyways.

So I wanted to ask:  How many of you, on a regular basis, provide to your portable customers these extra-ordinary handling services (handling above and beyond moving them around the staging area)?   We'll all do it for our father-in-law, best friend, etc.   But how many provide this service as a matter of course?

Thanks in advance,

I would not provide skidding, staging service
Sawmill service is not pick-up sticks AND sawmill service.
First question I would have if the logs are scattered about is who
left them there and why??

I like Chuck White's method.

DGDrls

[Peter Drouin]

I like my logs in a nice pile



  

 

Sometimes I will bring John with me If the customer wants to pay for him by the day and just to help me move slabs and logs



 
and sell them stickings. :D :D :D

[WDH]

Peter,

You always have the nicest log piles. 

[fishpharmer]

The following scattering of pine logs is what I found at a customer's site.  The fella was over 80 years old and said he would move the logs and help me off load.  I know he could have, that would have taken a week or more to finish.  I didn't charge extra to take my tractor, stack his logs, and bring a helper.  I may have broke even but ended up with a happy customer.  He was using the lumber to rebuild the old home he grew up in that was partially destroyed by a tornado.  It really wasn't about making money,  I was satisfied. 

To answer the question, I would move logs again with my equipment and will charge accordingly. 


After they were stacked.  Some a little (ok, lot) on the small size.

[drobertson]

Looks good fish, this is the kinda thing I was talking about, sometimes its just better to get it done. Nice looking set up you have there too!  And another nice day!  How sweat it is ;D    david

[Jim H]

Most of my customers are able to get the logs moved into position. Some have equipment, some rent equipment, I've even had some hire a machine & operator to work with me, all day, at a higher hourly rate than I was getting. I try to explain what is needed over the phone, but if there is any question I go take a look. I've had to tell people that their log can't be accessed economically and the best thing to do is let it rot where it lays. On a few occasions I've taken the tractor, sometimes with the winch. I still struggle with how to charge for  this , as I can only run one thing at a time. The last time I did this I had to winch the logs up 2 or three at a time. It was a week long job, and I added $10 to my hourly rate. On another job this spring I spent a day working with the customer and two of his employees rolling several 30"+ oaks across the side of a hill, through an opening not much bigger than the length of the logs, to a place they could be sawn. We used canthooks and a hi-lift jack. As long as the customer is happy, and paying me  ;) , I try to just go with the flow.     Jim

[customsawyer]

If the portable job is small I only take the mill or get them to bring the logs to me. If it is a larger job, 3,000 bf or bigger I take tractor and edger.

[customsawyer]

Found the pic.