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thinking of selling my lt40

Started by sawlogs, September 01, 2013, 10:56:50 PM

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sawlogs

hey guys, looking for some advice here!... im thinking of selling my woodmizer lt40 hydraulic and buying a circle mill, the reason for even thinking about this is some changes in the market in my area have changed! I was doing fairly well sawing custom lumber for people but now im getting more into the commercial side of things. im starting to saw more ties for the railroad and pallet lumber for the pallet mills around here, im finding that my mill is just not fast enough to produce the amount I desire, about the best I can do in a 8 hr day on ties is 40 7x9s and if im sawing pallet 6x6s then its around 50.....still decent $$$ for a days work but some of the circle mill owners are doubling or even triple my daily amount!.. I worry about the market and if it will hold stedy, I much prefer the quality of lumber that my woodmizer produces over a circle mill and I kno my customers prefer it as well but I got to make a move here im not doing a lot of custom sawing anymore....your input please!. thanks guys! ???

steamsawyer

Hey Sawlogs,

Can you work out a way to keep the band mill and pickup an old circle mill that you could set up I your spare time. You may be able to find a circular mill that wont set you back too much.... Then you will have the best of both worlds. 8)

Alan
J. A. Vance circular sawmill, 52" blade, powered by a 70 HP 9 1/2 x 10 James Leffel portable steam engine.

Inside this tired old mans body is just a little boy that wants to go out and play.

Great minds think alike.....  Does your butt itch too?

Alan Rudd
Steam Punk Extraordinaire.

WH_Conley

A couple of things. Can you get enough logs to saw 120 plus ties a day. The circle mill will do 200, but, there is more to it than that. To do that many you will have to have help. Are you going to saw the grade off the side, are you going to have an edger? Do you really want to hire extra help with the insurance and tax liability?

I have sawed a lot of ties and cants on my LT40HD. Yes, it is slow, the money stays at home too, not passes through. I think when you put a pencil to it you will find your margins are a lot better where you are right now. It seems there is a place for a small operation or a large one. Not much room in the middle. There will be somebody along that runs a setup like you are proposing that can give you better advice. I have considered adding a small circle mill such as steamsawyer suggests. That way you could rip and slash on the low grade and still handle the higher profit custom market.
Bill

stavebuyer

An LT70 with support equipment will saw 80-100+ ties a day. Ties, lumber, logs, and stumpage are all in short supply and competition for logs going into winter this year is going to be keen. We are only about 30 miles up the road on 27. Your welcome to come have a look at our LT70 sawing ties. I'll pm you my contact info. Best of luck whichever way you go.

customsawyer

Keep in mind the more you saw the more equipment you will need to handle the extra material.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

scully

I would not give up the lt 40 unless I was upgradeing to an LT 50 or LT 70 . If you are running a twin gas motor now that may be slowing you a bit . I agree also that you will need allot of support equipment . Not haveing the band mill around I think will bite you at some point . Just my 2 bits .
I bleed orange  .

WH_Conley

Go visit Stavebuyer and pick his brain a bit. Write any questions you have down. I am sure he can give you pointers on things you haven't thought of. Being that close he will have a lot better understanding of your local markets than the rest of us.
Bill

drobertson

I was thinking the same as a few others, in if it were possible for you to keep the 40 and try a circle mill out. If something were to happen to the market you could be stuck with it and no band mill.  david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

dgdrls

SL,

sawing ties on a circle without big diesel power or electric and Hydro/pneumatic assist may not be any faster.
A modern circle will be expensive.  I would bring coffee and fresh raspberry strudel to Stavebuyer's shop
and have a nice long talk.

FWIW  I posted this the other day in another thread about RR ties.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkzm5N5UQW8


Happy Labor Day
DGDrls



Fla._Deadheader

 It takes a minimum of 4 people to produce well on a Circle mill. It did on mine.

I would spend any free time mechanizing my operation. You can buy square link farm chain for little money and run boards-cants-ties out away from the mill without taking very many steps. As Jake (customsawyer) said, more product to move around. Moving product is always the bottleneck.

Make the WM into a remote feed instead of chasing the sawhead all day. Then, you can control anything except breakdowns from 1 small area. All the chain feeds can be operated singly or automatically, from that area, even while sawing.

Set up a way to power several chain systems or roller tables, and send the product into stacked piles that just need a set of forks to lift and organize.

As an example, go on WM's site and look for the video on small log production. You just need to build a little stronger set up.

It is what I am starting to use as design ideas for my 1 man 1 woman logging- sawing operation on our tree farm.

Figure the profit from the tie or pallet cant and how many extra it takes to pay a salary + per each extra man. As stated earlier, figure higher cost for BIG engine, fuel, etc. whether for Diesel or electric. If 1 man doesn't show, then what ?? Seems to be getting the norm around hard work jobs these days.

Don't know about you, but, I'm getting too old to work as hard as I used to.  ;D



All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

sawlogs

hey guys, all extremely great points and ideas! my operation is paying the bills with a little extra here and there but im not getting any younger and would like to start banking some $$.. I will take another look at my set-up and see if anything I can change, the idea of not chasing the saw head up and down the track is a good idea! just not sure on how to convert mine to a stationary location without chopping all my wires to crap! any ideas on this would be a BIG help! I would like to put in some green chains and be able to remote access them too! also the dust is a giant issue as I sure all of you kno! whats the best way to move my dust away from the mill?? remote belt??.. I don't mind changing things on the WM but I don't want to hack it all to pieces! keep the ideas coming guys! thanks ;D

Fla._Deadheader


I will be in Florida at the mill location, on Saturday. and take some photos to post here for you.

In the mean time, look at the WM set up I posted about. It gives you many new ways to move stuff, by actually watching the videos.

With the feed speed, we ran the wires through vacuum cleaner hose or pool cleaning hose. That way, no weather damage or physical damage to the wires. It lays on the ground and slides along with the head. .

You have a drum switch to do the forward -reverse, and speed control. Just extend the wires to the remote location.We also did the up-down and movable blade guide from that same stationary location. We don't worry about the disengage or idle speed. Just keep sawing and then, idle down and disengage, as you turn logs or load logs.

You will be amazed at how much time is taken over an 8-9 hour day with doing un-necessary moving around.

Do you have setworks on the mill ? We didn't, so, 1 of us would stay at the controls while the other did our moving around. We had 1 10' long roller table and planned our steps carefully.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

drobertson

sawlogs, the only draw back with our 40's is they cannot drag back a tie, I know for a fact the 70's can, and with an in line set up with a live deck a tie can be cut with a 2 min cycle time.  Side lumber is dependent on the size of the log.  the set up I was helping on had one roller system in a straight line, the first stop was the edger, finished boards and ties went down the line, flitches had to be edged then stacked,  in the time I sawed, I was doing 30 logs in under 2 hours,  it was quite impressive, their blower was hooked to the mill with a tee that was piped to the edger,  very clean and efficient.  It was a 3 ph 25hp.  I have found that staying with the portable option has it's draw backs, but still doable.  It just takes some jockeying around to find the flow.  david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

sawlogs

im hopeing I can get it set up to do what I want it to do without having to sell it!.. I had a good set up for custom lumber but ties and pallet cants are a different story. I have plenty of rollers and roller beds but none live! and good help is hard to find around here, seems everybody these days don't appreciate a good day of hard work, I love it, makes me feel good at the end of the day.. so I guess if I find some decent help things would be some better. :D

Magicman

Quote from: sawlogs on September 02, 2013, 11:43:26 AMthe idea of not chasing the saw head up and down the track is a good idea!


 
I would not trade this for a brass monkey.   ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Fla._Deadheader


QuoteI would not trade this for a brass monkey.

You got lots of help most days, MM.  ;D ;D

Sawlogs is a 1 man sawmill operation.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

pineywoods

sawlogs, the sawdust problem is easy to solve. Cheap, cost about $350. The blower is from a harbor freight shop dust collector. I haven't shoveled sawdust in a long time. The tubing is ordinary hardware store metal stove pipe.  click here
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,60773.msg894288.html#msg894288

There's a sawdust pile about 12 ft high out behind my sawshed.
My mill also has a home-made remote control console, but I'll save that for another post.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Fla._Deadheader


Pineywoods, if you want to show what you have here, it won't bother me any. It might be better than what I can come up with, from 1400 miles away.  ;D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

sawlogs

great ideas and some good fab work!....I don't kno, maybe ill keep the ol girl for now.. I timed myself this evening sawing ties by myself, I could do 8 per hour so not too bad but ill most likely only avarage 5 per hour as the day goes on and I start getting tired, but with a little improvement on my operation I think I could get my average to 6 or 7 per hour!.. thanks guys........keep the ideas coming! 8)

Brucer

Take an honest measurement of your work day. How many hours do you spend doing anything at all related to producing your product. That includes sawing, material handling, dealing with customers, dealing with waste, buying logs, piling lumber, etc., etc.?

What proportion of that time is spent sawing?

The improved production from your new mill will only affect the sawing portion of the day (and possibly loading and unloading the mill). It will also increase the time spend doing everything else, which means fewer sawing hours per day.

Here's an example:
Production rate of mill = 250 BF per hour.
Sawing time = 3 hours.
Everything else = 4 hours.
Total Production time = 3 + 4 = 7 hours (don't forget to allow for non-production time).
Total production 3 x 250 = 750 BF per 7 hour day
  OR ... 750/7 = 107 BF per production hour.

OPTION 1: Upgrade to a mill with 2 times the capacity
Production rate of mill = 500 BF per hour.
Sawing time = 3 hours.
Everything else = 2 x 4 = 8 hours.
Total production time = 3 + 8 = 11 hours.
Total production = 3 x 500 = 1500 BF per 11 hour day, or ...
  OR ... 1500/11 = 137 BF per production hour.

So buying a mill with twice the capacity only increases production by a factor of
   137/107 = 1.27 (in other words, a 27% increase :().

OPTION 2: Keep the original mill and reduce "everything else" so for every 4 hours of sawing you spend 3 hours doing "everything else".
Production rate of mill = 250 BF per hour.
Sawing time = 4 hours.
Everything else = 3 hours.
Total Production time = 4 + 3 = 7 hours.
Total production 4 x 250 = 1000 BF per 7 hour day
  OR ... 1000/7 = 143 BF per production hour.

So keeping the original mill and improving material handling increases production by a factor of
   143/107 = 1.33 (in other words, a 33% increase  :)).

There are dozens of simple ways to improve material handling. Orient your all your logs the same way (decide which way works best for you). Build a simple wood "dead deck" so you don't have to lift the logs so far with the mill's loader. Keep the logs shifted toward the front of the mill so you don't have to walk/ride as far. Minimize the number of times you have to fetch your material handling machinery. Saw your various products in batches so you are producing a lot of just one size in a session. These are just a few examples. At six logs per hour, minutes saved per log can add up.

When your material handling time is down to a small fraction of your producing day, that's the time to upgrade to a higher capacity mill.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

stavebuyer

If your cutting 40 ties a day as a one man band; I would look for ways to make it easier to maintain that level without killing yourself. Without help, I doubt upgrading your sawing capacity will benefit you much.
If you haven't already got them I'd invest in concrete, sawdust blower or conveyor, hydraulic power pack, log deck, and green chain before I traded mills. You'll need them anyway to get much benefit out of a faster mill.

Bibbyman

I didn't see if you were running a standard hydraulic or Super.   

Here is a video where I'm making 8x8s on our LT40 Super.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okJ9-uCBB7s&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Knot_Head

All good info.

Why on earth dont they make a sawmill bed that is 100% rollers like this in the video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av3EecYsTqU
I like to see a man proud of the place in which he lives. I like to see a man live so that his place will be proud of him.
—Abraham Lincoln

beenthere

That could be done, but why not just power the toe board rollers to roll off the cant or tie? Raise them and roll them.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Larry

I drag back slabs and lumber on my TK.  If I were to drag back a cant it would cause too much congestion behind the mill the way I'm setup.  For a long time I thought about either something to push the cant or powered rollers to drop the cant off the other end of the mill.

I eventually figured out I can kick the cant off the log stop side of the mill using the two plane clamp.  I can drop 6-6X6's right on the forklift forks and then it's time to cart off slabs.  A little extra work and I think I could accumulate even more cants.  I wonder if this would work with a Mizer?  Why I've seen some of the orange boys kick whole logs off that backside...maybe some TK guys too. ;D

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

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