thinking of selling my lt40

[sawlogs]

hey guys, looking for some advice here!... im thinking of selling my woodmizer lt40 hydraulic and buying a circle mill, the reason for even thinking about this is some changes in the market in my area have changed! I was doing fairly well sawing custom lumber for people but now im getting more into the commercial side of things. im starting to saw more ties for the railroad and pallet lumber for the pallet mills around here, im finding that my mill is just not fast enough to produce the amount I desire, about the best I can do in a 8 hr day on ties is 40 7x9s and if im sawing pallet 6x6s then its around 50.....still decent $$$ for a days work but some of the circle mill owners are doubling or even triple my daily amount!.. I worry about the market and if it will hold stedy, I much prefer the quality of lumber that my woodmizer produces over a circle mill and I kno my customers prefer it as well but I got to make a move here im not doing a lot of custom sawing anymore....your input please!. thanks guys! ???

[steamsawyer]

Hey Sawlogs,

Can you work out a way to keep the band mill and pickup an old circle mill that you could set up I your spare time. You may be able to find a circular mill that wont set you back too much.... Then you will have the best of both worlds. 8)

Alan

[WH_Conley]

A couple of things. Can you get enough logs to saw 120 plus ties a day. The circle mill will do 200, but, there is more to it than that. To do that many you will have to have help. Are you going to saw the grade off the side, are you going to have an edger? Do you really want to hire extra help with the insurance and tax liability?

I have sawed a lot of ties and cants on my LT40HD. Yes, it is slow, the money stays at home too, not passes through. I think when you put a pencil to it you will find your margins are a lot better where you are right now. It seems there is a place for a small operation or a large one. Not much room in the middle. There will be somebody along that runs a setup like you are proposing that can give you better advice. I have considered adding a small circle mill such as steamsawyer suggests. That way you could rip and slash on the low grade and still handle the higher profit custom market.

[stavebuyer]

An LT70 with support equipment will saw 80-100+ ties a day. Ties, lumber, logs, and stumpage are all in short supply and competition for logs going into winter this year is going to be keen. We are only about 30 miles up the road on 27. Your welcome to come have a look at our LT70 sawing ties. I'll pm you my contact info. Best of luck whichever way you go.

[customsawyer]

Keep in mind the more you saw the more equipment you will need to handle the extra material.

[scully]

I would not give up the lt 40 unless I was upgradeing to an LT 50 or LT 70 . If you are running a twin gas motor now that may be slowing you a bit . I agree also that you will need allot of support equipment . Not haveing the band mill around I think will bite you at some point . Just my 2 bits .

[WH_Conley]

Go visit Stavebuyer and pick his brain a bit. Write any questions you have down. I am sure he can give you pointers on things you haven't thought of. Being that close he will have a lot better understanding of your local markets than the rest of us.

[drobertson]

I was thinking the same as a few others, in if it were possible for you to keep the 40 and try a circle mill out. If something were to happen to the market you could be stuck with it and no band mill.  david

[dgdrls]

SL,

sawing ties on a circle without big diesel power or electric and Hydro/pneumatic assist may not be any faster.
A modern circle will be expensive.  I would bring coffee and fresh raspberry strudel to Stavebuyer's shop
and have a nice long talk.

FWIW  I posted this the other day in another thread about RR ties.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkzm5N5UQW8


Happy Labor Day
DGDrls

[Fla._Deadheader]

 It takes a minimum of 4 people to produce well on a Circle mill. It did on mine.

I would spend any free time mechanizing my operation. You can buy square link farm chain for little money and run boards-cants-ties out away from the mill without taking very many steps. As Jake (customsawyer) said, more product to move around. Moving product is always the bottleneck.

Make the WM into a remote feed instead of chasing the sawhead all day. Then, you can control anything except breakdowns from 1 small area. All the chain feeds can be operated singly or automatically, from that area, even while sawing.

Set up a way to power several chain systems or roller tables, and send the product into stacked piles that just need a set of forks to lift and organize.

As an example, go on WM's site and look for the video on small log production. You just need to build a little stronger set up.

It is what I am starting to use as design ideas for my 1 man 1 woman logging- sawing operation on our tree farm.

Figure the profit from the tie or pallet cant and how many extra it takes to pay a salary + per each extra man. As stated earlier, figure higher cost for BIG engine, fuel, etc. whether for Diesel or electric. If 1 man doesn't show, then what ?? Seems to be getting the norm around hard work jobs these days.

Don't know about you, but, I'm getting too old to work as hard as I used to.  ;D

[sawlogs]

hey guys, all extremely great points and ideas! my operation is paying the bills with a little extra here and there but im not getting any younger and would like to start banking some $$.. I will take another look at my set-up and see if anything I can change, the idea of not chasing the saw head up and down the track is a good idea! just not sure on how to convert mine to a stationary location without chopping all my wires to crap! any ideas on this would be a BIG help! I would like to put in some green chains and be able to remote access them too! also the dust is a giant issue as I sure all of you kno! whats the best way to move my dust away from the mill?? remote belt??.. I don't mind changing things on the WM but I don't want to hack it all to pieces! keep the ideas coming guys! thanks ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

I will be in Florida at the mill location, on Saturday. and take some photos to post here for you.

In the mean time, look at the WM set up I posted about. It gives you many new ways to move stuff, by actually watching the videos.

With the feed speed, we ran the wires through vacuum cleaner hose or pool cleaning hose. That way, no weather damage or physical damage to the wires. It lays on the ground and slides along with the head. .

You have a drum switch to do the forward -reverse, and speed control. Just extend the wires to the remote location.We also did the up-down and movable blade guide from that same stationary location. We don't worry about the disengage or idle speed. Just keep sawing and then, idle down and disengage, as you turn logs or load logs.

You will be amazed at how much time is taken over an 8-9 hour day with doing un-necessary moving around.

Do you have setworks on the mill ? We didn't, so, 1 of us would stay at the controls while the other did our moving around. We had 1 10' long roller table and planned our steps carefully.

[drobertson]

sawlogs, the only draw back with our 40's is they cannot drag back a tie, I know for a fact the 70's can, and with an in line set up with a live deck a tie can be cut with a 2 min cycle time.  Side lumber is dependent on the size of the log.  the set up I was helping on had one roller system in a straight line, the first stop was the edger, finished boards and ties went down the line, flitches had to be edged then stacked,  in the time I sawed, I was doing 30 logs in under 2 hours,  it was quite impressive, their blower was hooked to the mill with a tee that was piped to the edger,  very clean and efficient.  It was a 3 ph 25hp.  I have found that staying with the portable option has it's draw backs, but still doable.  It just takes some jockeying around to find the flow.  david

[sawlogs]

im hopeing I can get it set up to do what I want it to do without having to sell it!.. I had a good set up for custom lumber but ties and pallet cants are a different story. I have plenty of rollers and roller beds but none live! and good help is hard to find around here, seems everybody these days don't appreciate a good day of hard work, I love it, makes me feel good at the end of the day.. so I guess if I find some decent help things would be some better. :D

[Magicman]

the idea of not chasing the saw head up and down the track is a good idea!

 
I would not trade this for a brass monkey.   ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

I would not trade this for a brass monkey.

You got lots of help most days, MM.  ;D ;D

Sawlogs is a 1 man sawmill operation.

[pineywoods]

sawlogs, the sawdust problem is easy to solve. Cheap, cost about $350. The blower is from a harbor freight shop dust collector. I haven't shoveled sawdust in a long time. The tubing is ordinary hardware store metal stove pipe.  click here
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,60773.msg894288.html#msg894288

There's a sawdust pile about 12 ft high out behind my sawshed.
My mill also has a home-made remote control console, but I'll save that for another post.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Pineywoods, if you want to show what you have here, it won't bother me any. It might be better than what I can come up with, from 1400 miles away.  ;D

[sawlogs]

great ideas and some good fab work!....I don't kno, maybe ill keep the ol girl for now.. I timed myself this evening sawing ties by myself, I could do 8 per hour so not too bad but ill most likely only avarage 5 per hour as the day goes on and I start getting tired, but with a little improvement on my operation I think I could get my average to 6 or 7 per hour!.. thanks guys........keep the ideas coming! 8)

[Brucer]

Take an honest measurement of your work day. How many hours do you spend doing anything at all related to producing your product. That includes sawing, material handling, dealing with customers, dealing with waste, buying logs, piling lumber, etc., etc.?

What proportion of that time is spent sawing?

The improved production from your new mill will only affect the sawing portion of the day (and possibly loading and unloading the mill). It will also increase the time spend doing everything else, which means fewer sawing hours per day.

Here's an example:
Production rate of mill = 250 BF per hour.
Sawing time = 3 hours.
Everything else = 4 hours.
Total Production time = 3 + 4 = 7 hours (don't forget to allow for non-production time).
Total production 3 x 250 = 750 BF per 7 hour day
  OR ... 750/7 = 107 BF per production hour.

OPTION 1: Upgrade to a mill with 2 times the capacity
Production rate of mill = 500 BF per hour.
Sawing time = 3 hours.
Everything else = 2 x 4 = 8 hours.
Total production time = 3 + 8 = 11 hours.
Total production = 3 x 500 = 1500 BF per 11 hour day, or ...
  OR ... 1500/11 = 137 BF per production hour.

So buying a mill with twice the capacity only increases production by a factor of
   137/107 = 1.27 (in other words, a 27% increase :().

OPTION 2: Keep the original mill and reduce "everything else" so for every 4 hours of sawing you spend 3 hours doing "everything else".
Production rate of mill = 250 BF per hour.
Sawing time = 4 hours.
Everything else = 3 hours.
Total Production time = 4 + 3 = 7 hours.
Total production 4 x 250 = 1000 BF per 7 hour day
  OR ... 1000/7 = 143 BF per production hour.

So keeping the original mill and improving material handling increases production by a factor of
   143/107 = 1.33 (in other words, a 33% increase  ).

There are dozens of simple ways to improve material handling. Orient your all your logs the same way (decide which way works best for you). Build a simple wood "dead deck" so you don't have to lift the logs so far with the mill's loader. Keep the logs shifted toward the front of the mill so you don't have to walk/ride as far. Minimize the number of times you have to fetch your material handling machinery. Saw your various products in batches so you are producing a lot of just one size in a session. These are just a few examples. At six logs per hour, minutes saved per log can add up.

When your material handling time is down to a small fraction of your producing day, that's the time to upgrade to a higher capacity mill.

[stavebuyer]

If your cutting 40 ties a day as a one man band; I would look for ways to make it easier to maintain that level without killing yourself. Without help, I doubt upgrading your sawing capacity will benefit you much.
If you haven't already got them I'd invest in concrete, sawdust blower or conveyor, hydraulic power pack, log deck, and green chain before I traded mills. You'll need them anyway to get much benefit out of a faster mill.

[Bibbyman]

I didn't see if you were running a standard hydraulic or Super.   

Here is a video where I'm making 8x8s on our LT40 Super.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okJ9-uCBB7s&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Knot_Head]

All good info.

Why on earth dont they make a sawmill bed that is 100% rollers like this in the video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av3EecYsTqU

[beenthere]

That could be done, but why not just power the toe board rollers to roll off the cant or tie? Raise them and roll them.

[Larry]

I drag back slabs and lumber on my TK.  If I were to drag back a cant it would cause too much congestion behind the mill the way I'm setup.  For a long time I thought about either something to push the cant or powered rollers to drop the cant off the other end of the mill.

I eventually figured out I can kick the cant off the log stop side of the mill using the two plane clamp.  I can drop 6-6X6's right on the forklift forks and then it's time to cart off slabs.  A little extra work and I think I could accumulate even more cants.  I wonder if this would work with a Mizer?  Why I've seen some of the orange boys kick whole logs off that backside...maybe some TK guys too. ;D

[sawlogs]

hey guys, all great ideas and much appreciated! but I have found a circle all hydraulic with cab and live in and out feeds with edger and new power! so looks like im going to go ahead and sell my beloved WM.. I realize im going to have to hire help but I mite as well go big or go home :D.. something I failed to metion is I run a logging operation too, so with a crew in the woods and a crew on the mill I hopeing for some good returns..so the mill at this point is up for sale if anybody is interested! :'(...94 lt40 hydraulic (not a super) 25hp kohler many new parts and a manual sharpener and setter included with around 60 blades....sorry to all my WM brothers :-\.. I feel like a trader!..PM me for price if interested..thanks guys..your great 8)







0

[beenthere]

Maybe could put in the "for sale" forum ??

[sawlogs]

wow! that didn't take long, got a guy from ohio coming tomorrow to buy it!... :'( :'( :'(

[Shotgun]

Is the buyer a forum member?

[Bibbyman]

Please keep us posted on the transition.   It'll be interesting to see if you are happier and richer for making the change.

I've listened to others that have did the math and figured more production will bring in more money.   Seems logical but if it cost more for labor,  insurance,  repair,  and so on,  you could just dig in deeper in debt.

Our business plan is simple,  they to make money and try to keep most of it.

[Bibbyman]

I drag back slabs and lumber on my TK.  If I were to drag back a cant it would cause too much congestion behind the mill the way I'm setup.  For a long time I thought about either something to push the cant or powered rollers to drop the cant off the other end of the mill.

I eventually figured out I can kick the cant off the log stop side of the mill using the two plane clamp.  I can drop 6-6X6's right on the forklift forks and then it's time to cart off slabs.  A little extra work and I think I could accumulate even more cants.  I wonder if this would work with a Mizer?  Why I've seen some of the orange boys kick whole logs off that backside...maybe some TK guys too. ;D

It would be great to drag it all off one end and have power conveyors sort and take it away.  That's the way LT70 and WM  industrial mills can be set up.  We have building restrictions that dictate our layout and process.   I tried to talk Mary into letting me drag the slabs back and off bear into the rack with the edgings.  She vetoed the idea.  Too many extra steps and a reach across the edger table was just to difficult.   

I too would like to be able to push something off as well as drag back.   I have experimented with pushing cedar 6x6s off using the blade.   It worked but I figured it was only a matter of time before I really screwed something up. The Wood-Mizer industrial mills have optional power toe boards that can be used to take a cant or stack of lumber in either direction.

[customsawyer]

Wishing you all the best. Make sure you leave room for working the bugs out. ;)

[sawlogs]

guys don't get me wrong!, I kno its going to be trial and error with the new mill and believe me when I tell you im sweating bullets here..of course im worried about the transition and worried ill kick myself later really hard!.. but I feel like I gotta try.. you are a great bunch of guys and have been extremely helpful..i figure it will take at least 2 weeks to set the circle mill up and working the bugs out could take 2 months, yes the cost of running a circle is higher but so is production and that's what im hopeing for!..so its a do or die situation, the next couple months will tell the tell....thanks guys

[dgdrls]

hey guys, all great ideas and much appreciated! but I have found a circle all hydraulic with cab and live in and out feeds with edger and new power! so looks like im going to go ahead and sell my beloved WM.. I realize im going to have to hire help but I mite as well go big or go home :D.. something I failed to metion is I run a logging operation too, so with a crew in the woods and a crew on the mill I hopeing for some good returns..so the mill at this point is up for sale if anybody is interested! :'(...94 lt40 hydraulic (not a super) 25hp kohler many new parts and a manual sharpener and setter included with around 60 blades....sorry to all my WM brothers :-\.. I feel like a trader!..PM me for price if interested..thanks guys..your great 8)

Your gonna love a circle mill.   
What is the rig you found?  power unit??

"sorry to all my WM brothers :-\.. I feel like a trader!"
well there are at least two of us now :D

Very best to you



DGDrls

[sawlogs]

power unit is a fresh 671 detroit 8).... should be able to chew a few tooth pics! :D and its a 52" Corley with live in and out feed live log deck.

[Bibbyman]

Why was the circle mill up for sale?   Maybe he was installing a WM4000? :P

[drobertson]

It has been said many times, "go big or go home"  I hope it works out man,     david

[sawlogs]

 :D :D :D funny bibby!... he said he couldn't get logs so he is selling out!

[Bibbyman]

:D :D :D funny bibby!... he said he couldn't get logs so he is selling out!

You mentioned you run a logging crew.  That should help you manage your log flow into the mill. 

I'd starve if I had to depend on my log source to bring me a high percent of good tie logs.  I really don't think they pay any attention to bucking up logs.  Just volume of stuff to load on truck. 

[Ron Wenrich]

I can't recall of too many places that went from a circle mill to a band mill, especially the smaller units.  I went through laying out a mill that would be capable of doing the production of a circle mill, but using a thin kerf band mill.  I couldn't get the numbers to work as well as a circle mill.  I had to have a higher labor input, and more capital investment to get close to the production.  There was a lot more material handling.  I also had a problem with saw costs.  The circle mill is much lower, even considering the costs of a new blade every now and then.

I also know of an outfit that had 2 Mizers running to a Baker resaw and were sawing high end cherry.  They couldn't get the numbers to work.  Their labor was 2 1/2 times what mine was, and they were getting near the same production. 

I do think there may be some merit in using a small band mill as a resaw.  But, that would be for some high end logs and would require more equipment.  The current band resaws out there would work out better.

If I was looking at equipment in today's market, I would be looking for an automated circle mill that used hydraulics.  I would also be looking at something with an automated setworks.  It pays for itself in a short amount of time.  I would also be looking at ways of handling waste that doesn't involve too much manpower.  There is a lot of decent used equipment on the market.  Make sure you have a good mill layout with room for expansion well before you start putting equipment in.  Get lots of opinions. 

When I saw what you were trying to do, I was wondering about your log resource.  I've seen lots of mills go down because of insufficient logs and no good program in buying logs.  But, after seeing you have a logging crew, I don't see any problem.  I started a small mill with a local logger.  As the mill production grew, they increased the amount of logs they brought in.  That was 30 years ago, and they're still going strong.

[Bibbyman]

Ron,  visiting with my Wood-Mizer buddies,   I hear they are doing well in the industrial market side.  To the extent they've not put much effort into product development of portable mills.  The LT40 series has been out there some, what?, 15 years. They have came out with new portable models but all are some mix of existing designs - LT50 for example is pretty much a 40 head on a 70 bed.

My point is, the new and ever bigger Wood-Mizer industrial mills,  if not replacing circle mills, are going into places that would have been circle mills before they came along.

One of their large mills is salling at four times what they figured.   When I last talked to my inside buddy (early this year) they had a 13 unit backlog on order for this one model alone.

So who's buying the industrial bandmills?  It's not the weekend guy or the mom and pop operations.

[sawlogs]

I agree Ron!.. bandmills are good for custom cutting but for commercial sawing and trying to keep up with demand and putting a decent profit check in the bank at the end of the week is tough, in my opinion you just keep your nose above water with the bandmill, don't get me wrong I love my WM but profit margins are slim to good at best! the speed is just not there! yep im sure if I want to sink a whole bunch of money in a commercial model WM then a bandmill might be in the black....anyway thanks guys and this is just my opinion

[Ron Wenrich]

Seems like all the mills I've been around have used a band mill as a resaw.  The largest mills in the area all use a circle mill as a primary breakdown.  There are a few that use wide bands as a primary breakdown, but these mills tend to be double cut mills for the added production.

I just run these numbers the other month.  I couldn't make it work.  My labor costs increased, as did my saw expense.  I looked at used equipment to keep capital costs down, and the smallest unit was the LT 40.  To get production numbers up, I had band resaws. 

[Bibbyman]

Ron, sawlogs,  I'm convinced that industrial strength, thin kerf bandmill can be profitable.  And that they are not all doomed to failure.   The evidence is in the numbers of units sold in this rocky economy.   It may depend on products produced,  labor available,  energy cost and any number of other factors.

Just like having a circle mill as primary breakdown is by no means a sure road to riches untold.   The basic main mill is important but only one slice in a big pie.  Loose control of one slice and you're in trouble no matter what kind of saw blade is setting idle in the shed.

[Peter Drouin]

So Ron you think a WM 40 will not put out the wood in one day to make money.
Or how much of a profit margin you need with the 40. will .15 a bf be ok . more?

[Ron Wenrich]

I don't think I can get the necessary production for the operations I've been involved in.  I've watched the videos, seen some first hand, and the production capabilities aren't as good as a circle mill.  My typical day was about 2000 cuts per day.  That's about 4 lines per minute and includes loading, turning the log and unloading.  When in the cut, you have to get about 6-8 lines/minute.  That all varies with length.

For the commercial markets, its much easier to address the constraints with a circle mill than a thin kerf band mill.  Market constraints include how much you can get for the bulk of your material.  You're not setting the price for chips, grade, ties or pallet.  That's set by a much larger marketplace.  The constraints are what you need to pay for logs to supply the mill and what you can get for your lumber.  You have to work between that.  And you need to move product in order to make the business work.

[Bibbyman]

Ron, are you basing your numbers on sawing ties and blocking and otherwise short logs?   While there probably are circle mills in Missouri that are setup to saw longer than 10',  I'm not aware of them.  Distant relations in southern Missouri runs a circle saw.  The mill could saw 14' but they can hardly get a 12' log through the door.    They saw 8-10'.   Ties and blocking.  Other mill are set up for 9' rr ties only. 

We have one retail customer that buys lumber from several mills down south and none are setup to saw over 10'.   When he needs beams, deck lumber, etc., he comes to us.  And we get a premium,  naturally.    As Cederman says, "It's not the number of board feet you can saw in a day,  it's how much money you make."

I'd think optimizing on short logs would compress the whole mill layout and make it more efficient.   But would limit the products you could saw and maybe that product, like rr ties are a fixed price commodity.   

Even our mill setup is restricted.   Out mill will saw 21 feet as it came from the factory.   But our front door opening is 19'-6".   We can bring a long in sideways but it's time consuming.   We have a restriction coming off the end of the milll of 14'.  That's as long as we can take off the mill and shove into the edger and have room on the other side.   Longer than 14',  we edge on the mill.

If we pushed the edger another 7' away from the mill so we could edge 21' flitches and add another 7' on the edger outfeed side,  we'd need 14' more building. When we saw shorter stuff, the distance to the edger would be 7' further away. Everything is a compromise between optimization and flexibility. 

I would think the band mill with the log setting on a stationary bed with the sawhead doing the moving has an advantage that the total mill length is only a few feet longer than the maximum log length.  A circle mill would have to have a length of twice the log length and the diameter of the blade,  plus a little.   Right?

[sawlogs]

that's the idea!, I can move all the product that I can saw plus more and its that "plus more" im looking for, my yard stays empty, as quick as I can saw it, its out the door! always having to turn customers away because I cant keep enough product sawed and that's like driving down the road and letting $ fly out the window, I would much rather have a surplus of lumber ready to go than to turn that customer away and they go down the road to another mill (circle mill) anyway if my mill was fast enough to keep up with demand then we wouldn't even be having this conversation... my 2 cents again! :D

[Peter Drouin]

I am  100% with you Ron on production . The circle mill will do 1000 bf an hr+
My 40 will do 2800 bf on a good job by myself 4500 with help and that's not much wood :D :D
I have a customer that wants a lot of hemlock cut. And I'm not sure if I can keep up :D
Will see how it goes . He wants 14,000 bf a week. Plus I have a lot of other small orders too

[sawlogs]

Peter, if your numbers are correct then you are do a lot better than me if you can get 4500bf a day with help,. the best I can do with help is around 3000bf on LT40 hydraulic.. that's high numbers if your expected to do 14000bf a week plus leave room for your other customers... good luck friend!

[Peter Drouin]

I know a lot of work. no way to cut 14,000 bf a week and scale logs and put them away , and saw them, band up the lumber and chip up the slabs. :D :D :D
And take care of the customers that come in.
I just have to think about it :D :D :D :D

[Bandmill Bandit]

Learned a lot this summer!
All lengths were a pretty even split of 10 and 12 foot and average diameter was 14". not counting the 25 to 30 % of the logs that were under 7" on the big end.

Best day   = 6840 BF only did this once and got close 2 times 5000BF +/- (all 6x8 and 12 x 12)
Worst day =   280 BF

Average  =   2180 BF cutting 10 to 12 hour days

This was with an excelent helper that kept me at the saw head except at blade change time.

cut list was 3x10, 3x12, 4x6, 6x6, 6x8, 8x8, 12x12. Everything else was cut to 1 or 2 inch thick and went to the edger.

Gainful employment? Barely!
Profitable?? The jury is still out on that! I would say on the plus side of break even but not in double digit %s.

My mill is a modified LT40 Hydraulic. the only thing not modified yet is the lift motor. everything else is same as a super with a 28 kohler gas engine.

[sawlogs]

yep Bandit, breakin even is always a common issue, profit margin little to none. you get lucky once in a while and make a decent profit if you saw alone but with help your profit flies out the window! ;D

[Ron Wenrich]

Bibby:  I had a standing order for 23' switch ties.  We would saw a load every other week or so.  It was not optimum, since the side cuts had to be cut into lengths shorter than 16'.  When we hit tulip poplar, it was not uncommon to saw for days in 16' logs.  By the same token, I could saw for a week on tie logs or 8' poplar.  10' logs were pretty common on the butts, since that's what sold best for veneer.  I just got the rejects.

We didn't worry too much about the guy who wanted something special that walked through the door.  Usually, handling the customer was more expensive than what we got extra.  If they needed a specialty item, it got put into the cutting mix and separated when we sawed that species.  The highest price item I cut was a specialty cut for a market in New York City.  It was delivered at $4.50/bf and was air dried.  I got the market because I could figure out how to cut it. 

Our aim was to get logs in and lumber out in a short turn around time.  That way we didn't lose money in degrade, either in lumber or logs.  We never end sealed logs and logs didn't sit for more than a few weeks.  The only time we stockpiled far in advance was in the fall to offset winter and hunting season.

[stavebuyer]

Since the thread has already been hijacked..
There's a couple large mills in KY that have replaced circle rigs with WM commercial mills and they are doing quite well sawing ties. In fact they have forced some smaller circle mills out of business that couldn't compete on the prices they are able to pay for logs.
The cost of tie logs and the price of side lumber is the determining factor in my opinion. If your sawing sweet gum, elm, or 12" oak logs that are 4-5 cuts and spit out a tie; I'd agree with Ron. If your sawing 13"+ oak, ash, maple etc. that have as much or more value in side lumber than in the sawn tie; the higher production cost of the band-mill is offset by the lumber return. We visited one of those mills last week. They run multiple LT300's. 140 ties a day average per mill with 3 men. Counting side lumber that's around 3200' a day per man in overall production and a 25% savings in log costs. The additional 25% in over-run is not in $.054 ties but in $.068+ side lumber. The math works.

Back to original programming... Sawlogs made the right call for him. A used circle rig can be set up and making money for a fraction of what it would cost to set up 2 LT300's. That math works much better than the LT40 he replaced.     

[sawlogs]

the math works for me! im feeling better about my decision everyday, although I may have somewhat shot myself in the foot on making $ for a couple weeks, over the past couple days I have had on average 12 to 20 calls per day of folks wanting lumber and also have had around 4000bdf of pine delivered by customers, so I need to get busy befor my WM gets gone....thanks guys 8)

[Bibbyman]

Maybe you need to back out of the sale of the Wood-Mizer and use it to pick up some extra cash?  You can run it evenings,  weekends, holidays.  There will be a lot of little jobs that it would be handy for.   ;)

[sawlogs]

yep good thinking bibby, I mite end up keeping it for now but its a BIG mite, I need to sell it to offset the cost of the circle!... but who knos it may be a really good $ month and it may work out that I can keep it!..

[Bibbyman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8nyrP8bclI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Now don't get me wrong, I can watch circle sawmills operate for hours.  8)

Check out his top saw at the end.

[sawlogs]

well, got a good look at the circle mill today! WOW!!!! im impressed to say the least! ... it sawed a 30 inch dia red oak log 10 ft long just under 2 minutes smiley_clapping...  now im getting worried about feeding that thing! :-\

[dgdrls]

well, got a good look at the circle mill today! WOW!!!! im impressed to say the least! ... it sawed a 30 inch dia red oak log 10 ft long just under 2 minutes smiley_clapping...  now im getting worried about feeding that thing! :-\

The 6-71 will go like a bandit, if you stick with it to try and get the exhaust up and out and see
if you can build some noise deflectors, they can be loud.  The other alternative is to to try an locate another
power plant,  Deutz makes  dandy air-cooled units and I understand they are less thirsty and certainly quieter.

best
DGDrls

[ladylake]

671 detroits are load, nothing I'd want to listen to , it's not the exhaust they just scream.  2 minutes seems fast for a 30" log, what size were they sawing.   Steve

[ladylake]

671 detroits are load, nothing I'd want to listen to , it's not the exhaust they just scream.  2 minutes seems fast for a 30" log, what size were they sawing.  I was watching up at the steam show in Rollag mn, most logs took 4 minutes, around 15" x 8'    Steve

[Bandmill Bandit]

Another thing I should add is that  when was sawing for the family owned saw mill this summer I did not have to do any of the stuff that I normally do when sawing on a mobile job.

The owners have a couple of loader operators plus Bob (Dad) and Ted (son) will jump on one of the loaders when they are not in the office.

I did not have to do any of the in feed loading, out feed product removal or waste removal. I didn't even have to run for parts or supplies most of the time.

My job was pretty easy! 1. Park my butt on the seat and cut. 2. Keep my mill maintained and bands sharp. 3. Park my butt in the seat and cut!

 
 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Good picture Bandit. But if I were you I would have probably parked my butt on the seat and cut.  :D

[Bibbyman]

I was thinking shade, where's the shade?

[ladylake]

 I see a umbrella over that seat.   Steve

[Bibbyman]

What are you sawing?   And why are they having you saw it when they have a mill?

[Jim_Rogers]

Two questions: How'd you get the picture? and how'd you stack the sawdust like that?

Jim Rogers

[Bandmill Bandit]

1. How did I get the picture?

I was set up on the west side of Bute Hill which is about the only hill for 30 or so miles and it is a big hill. Has a very nice flat top where both Ted and Bob have both built their homes and it is still about a 5 minute walk between them. The hill occupies about 60 acres at its base. On the east side of the hill, about 20 feet above the log yard is a cut out about 1,5 to 2 acre section of the hill that the county used the material from to repair a washout on a bridge about a 1/4 mile east of the yard a few years ago. They left a horse shoe shaped cut bank about 20 + feet high on average that gives a very great wind protected place to saw. Well protected from the north and west which is prevailing wind direction in the area.  That picture is a stitch of 2 or 3 that my son took from several spots on the top of the bank to the west and north one after noon when he stopped to drop a box of blades on his way home from an oil field computer service call that took him with in a mile of where I was sawing.

this pic is shot to the north north east.



2. Saw dust pile?

If you look back in the usefull mods you will see my pail hanger that i use to catch the saw dust. The pile is where we dumped it to make it easy for the loader to grab it and get rid of it. we did make a minor set up change a day or 2 later by moving the saw dust pile to to the east side of the sawmill to where the 6x8s are stacked in the picture and over a bit next to the infeed roll way with just enough room to walk through and for the loader to get in comfortably. Switched to dropping the saw dust on the ground and using a 24 inch plastic snow shovel to pile the saw dust. Found this to be a very effective way to deal with the saw dust.

3. What was I sawing?

90% Lodge Pole Pine with a bit of spruce and a the odd stick of other types of pine

4x4 4x6, 6x6 & about half of the 6x8 go to Sunpine forest products treatment plant about 10 miles away. 3x10, 3x12, 6x8, 8x8 & 12x12 go to Trans Canada Pipe, Pidernary,s Oil feild division, Precision Drilling and Nabors amongst others. 2nd cut and 2 inch go to local lumber yards for the beef industry. allowable wane is 10 to 15% but had to have bark cleaned off. Used a draw knife for that.  Any good 1 inch that would edge to a 6 inch minimum board went to the treating plant for residential fence boards

I was one of 3 custom operators on site beside their 2 circle mills and LT70.

1) LT40 Hydraulic
1) LT40 almost Super modified Hydraulic (mine)
1) Mobile dimensional that was broke down more than it was working. It was wore out and the owner was no operator or mechanic. very rammy and just plain hard on equipment.

They load out on average 7 super Bs a week pretty much one every morning and 2 or 3 on Mondays.

SHADE

Yes I have an umbrella but it was a bit small so I got a 7 foot deck umbrella with the knuckle so I could adjust it to the best position. made a mount tube for the bottom on the seat back that has a 5/16ths hole through it and then drilled 4 similar holes in the base of the umbrella shaft so that i can set it adn stick a pin through to hold it. I works real well.

this pic has some ghosting effect to it from the stitching app but it is a bit wider angle


   

         

[sawlogs]

hey guys, haven't been on here in a few days but things are under way on the circle mill, almost got all the pieces hauled inn and getting ready to do the painful set-up! :-\.... anyway my WM has gone on to a new home and a great owner, I also have the option to buy it back when he is finished with it, so sort of a win-win situation.. ill post pics of progress with the circle mill when we get started on setting it up 8)....thanks for all of your input and helpful advice! smiley_clapping

[dgdrls]

hey guys, haven't been on here in a few days but things are under way on the circle mill, almost got all the pieces hauled inn and getting ready to do the painful set-up! :-\.... anyway my WM has gone on to a new home and a great owner, I also have the option to buy it back when he is finished with it, so sort of a win-win situation.. ill post pics of progress with the circle mill when we get started on setting it up 8)....thanks for all of your input and helpful advice! smiley_clapping

any progress pictures yet??

Hope the project is going well.

DGDrls

[sawlogs]

holy crap batman!!!!.. finally,finally, got the circle mill set up and running, WOW! what a difference in speed! ill post some pics later but I am one pleased circle mill owner, at this point not regretting my decision at all!!!!..thanks guys for all the advice and support 8)...........ohh and on the engine choice, I changed my mind on the Detroit and went with a Waukesha natural gas engine! this thing is a beast!!

[dgdrls]

holy crap batman!!!!.. finally,finally, got the circle mill set up and running, WOW! what a difference in speed! ill post some pics later but I am one pleased circle mill owner, at this point not regretting my decision at all!!!!..thanks guys for all the advice and support 8)...........ohh and on the engine choice, I changed my mind on the Detroit and went with a Waukesha natural gas engine! this thing is a beast!!

Great news  ;)look forward to some photos.

DGDrls

[Bandmill Bandit]

That Waukesha will last you for years if you treat if good. Clean air and clean oil and steady rpm and they will out run you. I have seen Natural gas Waukesha engines driving irrigation pumps that had 20,000 plus hours at first complete rebuild. May have to refresh heads once in a while but they even got them down to a pretty fine art so they last pretty good too. They run pretty cheap too. You will not be sorry with your choice.