iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Homeade bandmill trailer bowing after welding - HELP!

Started by Timberline, August 31, 2013, 06:31:24 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Chuck White

What about cutting the welds loose except for the ones on the ends, then adjust and weld the middle to match the ends!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Cutting Edge

Quote from: drobertson on August 31, 2013, 11:12:21 PM
If it is welded, the stress is there, any heat at or on the current areas that have been welded will be mute... a string (MIG wire works VERY WELL) and soap stone marking the points that need to be treated.  Just give the steel time to cool and react.  trust it and move down the section methodically.   A very thin red heat will do the trick....It is cause by the  combination of the parent metal and weld contracting on cooling.  A acetylene torch will counter this...the only way to prevent this is preheating which only reduces the isolated effects of the weld area...center punch (or blunt chisel) and peen the welds as they are, then heat the bottom of your main beam.   david   

IMHO, David nailed it!!  It takes a bit of finesse, patience, (most importantly) experience.  If you can, find someone that can do this for you, otherwise, the end result could be the frame being in worse shape than it is now...a wrinkled, twisted nightmare.  arg-smiley smiley_crying whiteflag_smiley It could take a combination of techniques and a second person is invaluable: extra set of eyes, hands, etc.
"Winning an argument isn't everything, as long as you are heard and understood" - W.S.


Cutting Edge Saw Service, LLC -
- Sharpening Services
- Portable/Custom Milling and Slabbing
- On-Site Sawmill Maintenance/Repair Services

Factory Direct Kasco WoodMaxx Blades
Ph- (304) 878-3343

rmack

Whatever happens, it will be good experience.  :)

Just remember, whenever you heat steel it will expand and then shrink smaller than it was to begin with.

Personally, I would move toward incorporating some adjustment into the design.
the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
1972 Patrick AR-5
Massey Ferguson GC2410TLB Diesel Triple
Belsaw Boat Anchor

LAZERDAN

I agree with the chain and bottle jack, easy and fast.  also agree with the heating and actually they go hand in hand.  But going back to Magic mans comment, Adjustable bedrails !  can you easily use the right size flat stock and sister it vertically using drilled holes or better yet slots.  Just thought this may be more up your alley, and really fairly inexpensive.         Lazerdan

SPIKER

The Chain and Bottle Jack can work BUT you will need a 20 ton jack to make even adjustments.   Using a small 2 or 4 ton jack will cause you to have to build a lot more pressure to do much moving and could over act rather fast.   the larger 20 ton version can move the metal with less pressure which should be easier to control on the hand pump.   The heating will work as well but I thought you said you didnt have one so I didn't mention that one.   By heating the metal up (size of a dime underneath) to a cherry red color & letting it cool to a dull orange then quench it with a wet rag lightly watching it for movement will pull it back too.   Back when cars were made of thicker steel we did this for some dents in Auto-body Repair.   

Cutting the welds often will NOT make the frame move back to where it was at.   We built a LOT of conveyor frames & herring bone frames for industrial equipment.   Biggest issues are making sure you spread the welds evenly over the frame and tack everything real well prior to actually welding.   We had done a good number of Beams for Homes too those can be fun, made one that was 24" by 78feet long on-site out of 3 beams...   I forget the specs now but by eyeball it looked really nice ;)  (that was '97 maybe.)   We built maybe half dozen goose neck trailers and or bumper pulls in the 20' range...   Usually a 1/4" is fine for them as most customers wont notice anything other than tracking straight. 

Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

york

You are getting all kinds of advice with your problem-i think i would get out my 5in. grinder with a one eighth in. wheel and take it apart-find a certified welder,talk to him and see what he has to say about this-you can not beat a man at his own trade.
Albert

NCDiesel

As others have mentioned, welding a rail on the bottom has a reasonable likelihood of working.  Be sure to weld the same exact material, at the same speed, at the same ambient temps, using the same welder (person and machine) and wire/stick since the idea is to exactly replicate the stress.   My only concern is the result would most likely only be close to "right", but not exactly right.   You need to decide ahead of time what tolerance would determine success.

Frame shop would be my next stop.   They can get it exactly right.   Homemade pullers, rams, chains, etc have never worked great for me in precise bending.  I probably am too impatient to set it up right though.

As way of a testimony:  I once GMAW welded the edge of a thin cover plate along a piece and it bowed up like a banana.   Welded an identical plate on the bottom and it straightened right out.   I swear I could see it straighten as it cooled. This was a MUCH smaller version of your problem though.

Good luck!
NCDiesel
Cooks MP-32, 2016 Ram 1500, 6K Kaufman Equip. Trailer, 1995 Bobcat 753 skidsteer 1958 Ford 861 Diesel,
Youth Conservation Corps, Clayton Ranger District, 1977.
I worked sawmills as a teenager and one fall morning I came to work and smelled walnut cutting.  I have loved sawmills ever sinc

LeeB

The most impressive straightening job I ever saw was many years ago on a huge bridge beam. The crane handling it got overloaded and dropped it. Nobody hurt but he beam had a noticeable kink to it. The company called in an expert to straighten it out. A few days later a guy comes driving up to the location in a beat up old truck with a torch rig on the back. Said he was there to straighten the beam. We asked when the machine would be there. He pointed at his truck and said it is here. Unrolled his torch, put on a rosebud, looked the beam up and down then started to heat on the beam. He got a small spot bright hot, cut his torch off, went and got a drink of water from his water can, took the lid off and threw the rest of the water at the hot spot. Like magic the beam was straight. Out came his rather large bill and back in his old beat up truck he went.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Brucer

So the collective advice is to ...
1) take it apart and redo it (or have someone else redo it).
2) have a body shop straighten the frame.
3) use jacks and restraining devices to force it back into shape.
4) apply concentrated heat to the bottom edge (opposite to the edge you welded).

I've done number 4, I know it works, and it seems to be the easiest of the do-it-yourself options. Also the least likely to go badly wrong. You should be able to buy or rent an inexpensive torch, and buy a small oxygen cylinder and MAPP gas cylinder.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

wildbill

shim and cap the rails. use full length shims to support the new caps.

this is probably the best way to get the bed perfect.  heating it up and cooling it perfectly level are slim (especially if you've never done it before) and you will end up shimming your rails anyways. 

simplest way would be to make a "x" with tight string and see what needs to go where.  this will also show you any other imperfections in the deck that you wouldn't have noticed until a lot later.

i would use 14ga 304 stainless as caps.  screw them in place on the sides rather than welding them in place.  consider them a wearable item.  however if you shim 90% of more under each cap they should last next to forever. 

also it wouldnt be a bad idea to throw some never seize between the rails, shims and caps.  dis-similar metals will react with each other, rust will form between layers and push your caps up.
Raider Bill's favorite son

Al_Smith

Just a suggestion for what it's worth .Grind the welds loose and discard the angle iron. Use it for something else in the future .It's the least expensive piece of steel on that whole rig .

Replace it with new steel drilled and tapped about every 12 inches using shims where needed with grade 8 cap screws in slotted holes for alignment .Don't forget the Never Seeze .

I suppose you could use a laser for alignment or the age old method of tightly stretched music wire like I do .

If you use a spiral point tap you can power tap the holes using a variable speed reversable drill motor .Don't run it wide open now,slowly with lots of thread cutting oil .

schmism

jack the center up leave the end jacks so they are stable but hardly supporting weight.

put a log on it and see what it does before you spend hrs heating up the bottom of the box beam to shrink it back.
039 Stihl 010AV  NH TC33D FEL, with toys

beenthere

Quoteage old method of tightly stretched music wire

The "new age" method is to use fishing line to pull tight. Less weight to droop.

Might be cheaper and easier to find than music wire. ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Fla._Deadheader


DEFINITELY put Stainless caps on those bunks. It will keep the acidic woods from having black stripes as the wet wood lays on the steel bunks for just a few minutes. We did those to ours, and had them snap over the tops of the bunks and attached with self tapping Stainless sheet metal screws.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Al_Smith

I suppose you could use fishing line if that's all you have .However I've made my living for over 40 years in and around installing and maintaining high speed production metal working machinery and music wire is what they still use for alignment .They have lasers too which I've used to some extent .

On that though you have to have a pretty robust method of clamping and anchoring music wire .

Al_Smith

Just a comment on stainless steel ,a point of view .I think way more credit is given to stainless than it deserves .While it won't rust up it can gall up because the base metal becomes rusted up due to the effects of acidity, weather etc . You can twist them right off when that happens .So if a person were to use stainless for Petes' sake still use Never Seeze .

wildbill

Quote from: Al_Smith on September 03, 2013, 12:00:35 PM
I suppose you could use fishing line if that's all you have .However I've made my living for over 40 years in and around installing and maintaining high speed production metal working machinery and music wire is what they still use for alignment .They have lasers too which I've used to some extent .

On that though you have to have a pretty robust method of clamping and anchoring music wire .
i use lasers to align and level machines where i work frequently.  however i always start with a straight edge or string.  the old school method usually gets me within .015" from where i want to be with little effort.
Raider Bill's favorite son

1938farmall

X2 on Wildbill's solution.  it's a nobrainer vs. all others.  al
aka oldnorskie

Timberline

I took about a week off from thinking about this so my mind is clear.  I think I will try to heat the bottom with a torch.  Next week I'll see what a professional would charge and maybe just go that route.  I've got to much invested in this thing to have anything less than perfect.  Those stainless caps, you are talking about on the bunks like on a Woodmizer or Timberking, right?  How do you bend the edges?  Do you just get a sheet of stainless?


wildbill

easiest way to get the caps is to buy a sheet and have the supply house cut them for you.  you will get nice clean perfect straight square cuts.  with luck the same place has a brake and can bend over the two sides.  if not find a fab shop with a brake.  it will cost a little bit but in the end you will end up with a perfectly leveled bed that if damaged can be easily fixed. 
Raider Bill's favorite son

barbender

Having adjustable bed caps isn't going to do any good if the rails are still bowed. I think if you don't have a lot of welding experience, a body shop might be your best bet. Personally, I'm stubborn and I would stretch a string across the rails, and start laying small beads with the welder on the bottom of the rails opposite the welds on the top. Lay a bead, let it cool and measure. Do a few and keep measuring as you go. Be patient and take your time. Or get a torch and use that instead of laying weld beads, you already have the welder though.
Too many irons in the fire

Al_Smith

If he keeps welding on that thing it will bend like a sled runner .Either  jack the frame back straight or shim the bunks level .

Then bolt on the rails .If he welds them again it'll just warp again .

Now I've seen first hand at the ship yard in Newport News Va them pop the wrinkles out of ships with rose bud torchs and cold water .However were are  talking about a huge yard that has been building steel ships since they made steel ships .It's not like beating out a crinkled fender on an old Ford pick up truck .Nor is taking the warp out of a sawmill frame .

Al_Smith

Here's what I did but my frame work is a little different .It's an 8 inch riveted truck frame 27 feet long that was used to haul NFL footballs from coast to coast originally owned by Wilson sporting goods of Ada Ohio -trivia 

  .

This is early on in the fabrication .The rails are 2 by 2 angle bolted to welded slotted clips about 18" apart .They are perfectly straight and perfectly level --piano wire --- ;)

barbender

Too many irons in the fire

Al_Smith

 :D It has nothing to do with bandsaw tracks but I came across this picture which is amusing .

Some time ago on another web forum a person I have rather good naturely traded insults with said I could not weld .So in response I gas welded two tin cans together . I've not heard a peep since . ;D

 

Thank You Sponsors!