Many Question about starting sawmill business

Keith_A · January 28, 2002, 03:55:23 PM

Hello everyone. I have been lurking at this sight and woodweb for several weeks now and am finally ready to ask some questions. So far the best info I have been able to find on the small sawmill business has come from you and woodweb.
First some basic background. I am in the military and am planning on gettting out in the middle of next year. My wife and I are ready to settle down and call some place home permanently. I could get out of the Navy and get a job in corporate America but that is not much more appealing than staying in the Navy. To make a long story short, I am an avid woodworker, like the outdoors, and think that I could wake up in the morning and feel good about running a sawmill. I am thinking along the lines, that if I can find a job I love I will never have to work another day (someone famous said that I think).
My question list is literally endless but here are some I would love to hear some opinions on:

1) Does it matter hugely where I start this business? I think most people who do this have lived where they are for some time. I have moved around alot in my life and there is no place that my wife and I have to move home to, but we both loved Tennessee when we went to school there. We are thinking Tennessee, Kentucky or Alabama. She has family in Kentucky, I have family in Alabama.
2) If I am willing to work hard and do a good job, can I make a living? I am hoping to maybe do more than just sawing. Eventually I would like to saw, kiln dry, plane, mould?, maybe try retailing on a small scale to hobbyists, and a little tree farming. I have read alot about milling rates(seems 20-30 cents a bf is the norm) and by simply running the numbers it seems possible to make 50k+ a year IF you can keep your saw busy.

These are just 2 of hundreds of questions I have. Please I would love to hear any ideas.

P.S. So far I have read The Woodlot Management Handbook, the Good Woodcutter's Guide, plus a large painful part of The Forest Landowner's Guide to Fed taxes. All 3 were useful but, not really what I was hoping for. Any reading suggestions would be great.

Jeff · January 28, 2002, 04:05:46 PM

Welcome Keith! I am sure, in fact I know, you will get good info here. I'll let the portable mill owners do most of the answering as I run commercial, but I would recommend looking through the older posts in the forum, and there are some excellent articles in our knowledge base. Button is at the top of every page.

We're looking forward to your questions and your company, and be ready for some questions from us! (Like where ya stationed now?)

Again Keith, welcome to the Forestry forum!

woodmills1 · January 28, 2002, 04:53:33 PM

welcome Keith, we here will talk about this saw stuff. if you get customers you can make a living. you will also work hard for your can o peas. but they will taste very good at the end of the day, or still taste good cold in the middle. IMHO your location will matter. number of sawyers close and tree species/desireability will make a difference. along with your own personal drive/getgo. you will also have to figure out what to do with low grade and waste. honestly, i have much more fun at this than my day job. so welcome again and keep askin. :P

Keith_A · January 28, 2002, 08:09:53 PM

I am stationed in NAS Corpus Christi. We don't have many trees down here. Thanks for the warm welcome.

Frank_Pender · January 29, 2002, 06:47:14 AM

Welcome, Keith. You have chose a a rewarding yet hard working occupation after the military. It sounds as though you have basically decised what general geographic area you want to reside in as well as what type of sawing you want to do. Some of your next decisions, I would think, would center around the following: tree availability where you will live, speciies specific for what you want to market, the market base in that area you will reside, the number of other mills in the area you will be competing with, initial costs involved in getting started, etc. :

I would not consider anything less than $75,000 for start-up. :-[ That includes a mill, and some equipment to handle the logs. If you decide to be mobile with your mill you will need a vehicle to tow the critter around that is dependable enough to get you back home. If you are stationary, you will need space to store logs and lumber as well as the waste materials produced. But what ever you do make sure you have a market for what it is you want to produce. The best of luck to you in your venture. ;)

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · January 29, 2002, 06:55:35 AM

Welcome Keith,
Although I have been involved in wood-related work, I am new to milling, like you. During the last 30 days or so I have explored every type of 1or2 man mill there is (not every brand, but every type). Many of the questions you may have on your mind, you may find that I have posed also, and did it recently.

Keep in mind that geography will play a part, as you already seem to be doing. Point in fact,...
There is a participant who lives on an island off the coast of Alaska who can't buy a wall stud for less that $4. Standard dimension lumber could be a market for him. In bold contrast, if I tried to compete with Home Depot or Lowes or my local building supply, (who is even cheaper), I could never do it on standard dimensional lumber. Wall studs here are 55% cheaper than his cost in his area. This simple difference could break someone who didn't do their supply line and end product marketing research - the kind of work you have been doing.

For me, inaccurate answers to these interlinked questions are less of a risk. Why? I mix this brutal work, which I think is the best fun there is, with my piano tuning and restoration business. (I have been doing that for 25 years, now.) For you, they (answers) are of much more gravity.

If you want to see a green horn's questions, use the search feature to explore on this forum,
on WoodWeb.com (look at "Sawing and Drying")
and on yahoo.com/group/milling/messages
If you search for "Phil L." here and on wood web, and for "fencerowphil" on yahoo, you may see a great deal of your questions pass by. Also, I list many unusual web sites for machines in some of those. The responses from the sawyers all over the world are invaluable, stupid, and irreverent all at the same time. Don't miss the "Knowledge Bases" both here and on WoodWeb. WoodWeb's solar kiln info is unbelievable.
Thanks guys for all the help and GOOD LUCK TO YOU, KEITH!
Phil L.

Papa Dave · January 29, 2002, 09:44:45 AM

Welcome Keith, glad to have you aboard. Not sure if you have any experience running a mill, but if not, it would be a good idea to find someone who will let you tag along and help. This would give you a good idea about how hard the work is and also an idea of what type of machine you want to buy.

I have a manual custom built mill with no frills. It is fun for me to go out and cut a few logs on weekends, but it is also very tiring. If I were going to do this for business, I would buy a mill with lots of hydraulics and setworks, etc.

I am from Memphis and would be glad to have you help me sometime. But I really think you need to have experience on a more automated mill. Good luck

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · January 29, 2002, 02:54:37 PM

Great words of wisdom from Papa Dave.

You do have to ask what level of physical and financial involvement you want. Yesterday I bucked three 36" thick white oaks in some low land, which yielded two 8' logs, three 12', and one 16'. Doing this with a 41" bar on a Stihl 090 was incredibly demanding.

I could choose to just be a sawyer and not mix logging with that work. (Must be that I don't feel fully alive until I have felt half dead.) 8) You will have to make that call, as well, but going at it full time, that's another story. My waist line says that this 47-yr.-old body needs this occasional exercise in the mix. You may choose otherwise, especially going at it full time. Full blown hydraulics do give one the choice of when they want to give themselves a coronary. (At least you can have 911 preprogrammed into the cell phone.) :D

You CAN choose the level of exertion and the level of intitial capital outlay. You don't have to go with 75K up front to get in the door.

Phil L.

Ron Wenrich · January 29, 2002, 04:39:12 PM

Frank's advice is pretty good. I've been involved with several start-ups, but more along the commercial lines. In every instance, the keys to success where sufficient, affordable raw material, and a profitable marketplace.

A good idea is to get in contact with the your state's Department of Natural Resources and bounce some questions off of them. They may be able to give you some direction.

As for capital, you will need money to buy equipment, logs, and land. I've seen start-ups start with used equipment. The first mill I ran was a 50 yr old hand mill. You may want to go to several manufacturers. Quite often they have good trade-ins that they are willing to give a good deal. Usually they are refurbished.

You will also have to decide if you want mobility, yield, and production. It is hard to optimize all 3. There are lots of trade offs. Your markets, log resource, and capital will help determine which one to aim for.

I would strongly recommend working at some sort of a mill. The learning curve will be rather steep. It is best to learn on someone else's dollar, if you can.

Keith_A · January 29, 2002, 05:35:33 PM

Hello again. Thanks for all the replies. Let me give you a little more info. My wife has a pretty good job that she can do pretty much anywhere in the US (home office, can't be too far from a airport) and our current plan is for her to work a year or 2 while we start this business(we can get by ok on her salary). I was thinking that at least initially, I would mostly do mobile log milling for other peoples logs. I think this would be slow at first, but it would give me an opportunity really get to know the area I am in and give me the opportunity to see if add value products is a reasonable way to go. If things go well, I can start looking for a piece of property with some forest land on it.
  I haven't seen any mills in person yet(since there are no trees here, there are no mills anywhere nearby) but everything I have read so far makes me think Woodmizer makes a pretty good product, and if I really intend to do this for a living I should not skimp on the saw. I also will have to purchase a dependable pick-up. If we buy some property and are gonna cut our own trees or buy logs from loggers I will probably need a 35ish or more hp(purely based on what I have read) farm tractor and some device for moving logs. What device this would be I am not sure. I have heard people talking about skidsteers(Bobcat but bigger-type I think) but am not really sure how something with a front bucket picks up a log. I was thinking maybe a 5,000lb forklift might work also but I can already imagine its significant limitations. I think unless my operation got bigger than I currently imagine a forwarder is out of the question financially.
   I also realize that I need to find someone who does this for a living and see if he will apprentice me for a week or so. I know a week isn't much time but this would just be to make sure I am not crazy(I don't want to take too much time off right now) I could do it a little longer once I am off active duty.
   I have really done some digging but so far I haven't been able to find much truly applicable market research info on this type of operation. I have not talked to any foresters in the areas I am thinking of moving. I think the most useful info I have found so far is that the yellow pages in the Nashville area lists quite a few mills but Birmingham doesn't have any(or so my Dad says, but he is lobbying hard for me to move to Birmingham hehe).
   Ok enough rambling for today, I can't wait to hear more.

Tom · January 29, 2002, 05:49:37 PM

Birmingham, Alabama ? That would be a good place to start something like this. I have family around Notasulga and stopped there on my way home from Mo. last year. I just happened to be towing my mill with my Kodiak service truck and had all my tools etc. with me. My family, farmers, were really excited and I couldn't leave before milling a bunch of cedar for them. They were like kids in a candy store, running out in the woods a bringing back cedar trees as I was cutting the last ones they had brought. I have no doubt after this experience and after watching the neighbors and friends stop by, that I could easily start a custom sawing business in that area. Especially with the larger metropolitan areas close by where there would be an abundance of trees from building sites.

You gotta have trees if your gonna saw lumber. :D

Sounds like your dad might be a recruit as well.

Dothan has a manufacturer of sawmills, Accutrac. It may be a consideration if you live in Alabama so that you are close to the factory. That may be an advantage. Woodmizer makes a good machine though and I'm not trying to sell anything.

That you have an income that you can live on is great. That makes this a real venture. You will be allowed to try a lot of experiments that others on a limited budget could not.

Kevin · January 29, 2002, 05:53:36 PM

Keith,
I`m starting from the ground up.
I`ve been milling with an Alaskan mill for a few years and this past Fall I purchased a Wood-Mizer LT-15 portable band mill.
I`m still working but I plan on milling a bit as a custom sawyer on an occasional basis then when I retire in a few years I`ll know if it`s going to be worth while as a part time business.
I may even step up to a larger mill if the demand is there.
The resale on a good used mill is good so I view it as a decent investment and I can mill a whack of lumber for myself why I`m learning to saw.

timberbeast · January 30, 2002, 12:40:02 AM

Hello, Keith, and welcome aboard! There is a lot to be considered here! You may want to mobile mill logs for others, which can be a profitable business if you can find the customers. In the mean time, you'll have calls from folks who want you to log AND mill. You'll have calls from people who want you to just log, you'll have calls from people who want you to mill two 8" diameter logs from their yard which are probably full of nails.
Through all this, you'll have to remember to be pleasant to all of them, and try to find out where your "niche" is, until you get yourself established. Lots of local guys doing the same type of work as you will talk with you, but they won't give up too much in the way of information, because you're a competitor. You'll have to have reserve $ for equipment breakdowns, which are inevitable. Some people may have 30 logs, beauties to cut, but they have them laying in the woods, with no way to get them to a suitable area to saw. You may not be able to pass on a job like that, at start-up, so you'll have to skid them, and eat the cost in time if you underestimate it.
For myself, my job is felling, limbing, skidding, loading, sawing, stacking, transporting, advertising, selling, and lots and lots of driving. I saw my own timber, but have to resort to selling logs when it's necessary for cash flow. I sell posts and pulp as well, and have logged other properties and hauled, at my expense, to my mill and barely made a profit.
Sounds like you're set up fairly well for starting up, but it can go away fast. The hardest part for me is selling, hopefully you have a less shy personality than me, that can be a problem. I usually throw in extra boards, if I feel "guilty" about a little wane or checking on a couple.
None of this is meant to dissuade you, go get 'em and make your mark!!
But be ready to work harder than you ever have before, and keep lots of full gallon jugs of water close at hand, when I'm logging, I go through 4 or five gallons a day.
Other things to have: Lots of extra gas and oil and grease. Also a good toolbox with every tool you can think of. If you buy a bandmill, buy a lot more blades than you think you'll need. If you buy a circle mill with insert teeth, buy more than you think you'll need. Maintain the heck out of all of your equipment.
For log handling, Allis-Chalmers made a small crawler with a clam (grapple), and a used one in decent condition could probably be found for around 8 grand or so. You can skid with it too. Farm tractors aren't meant for skidding, but I use one. If you do, drive it a lot and learn its own little tricks, so you can tell if you're pulling too much, etc. ALWAYS pull below the center of gravity, or you might end up on your back with a tractor laying on top of you. Never forget safety for speed, ever!
Sheesh, I sound like some old curmudgeon trying to talk you out of this, BUT I'M NOT.
I wish you the best, and I hope you do great!

Bud Man · January 30, 2002, 01:38:36 AM

Kieth-- Pull up www.sawmillexchange.com . It'll have all portable sawmill manufactures listed==Download==Contact each==Request catalogues===Request owners (names and #'s ) in your area ====Contact , visit , drill each for their +'s and -'s=== Continue with forums ==IT'LL HAPPEN !!!!!!

TxLogger · January 30, 2002, 03:14:00 AM

Kevin,

I have a small sawing operation in East Texas, probably about 6 hours northeast of CC. Your more than welcome to come watch. I know a couple other millers you could go hang out with as well. If you do some searching there are probably some operations a couple hours closer as well.

Tom

Kevin · January 30, 2002, 04:28:15 AM

Thanks for the offer Tom. :D

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · January 30, 2002, 11:27:03 AM

Keith A.
Knowing more about the particulars of your situation does paint a different picture. I admit it; I'm cheap - maybe too conservative on the investment side. For the direction you are headed, sawmillexchange.com is definitely for you. Also see:
tms-sales.com
and woodworkingsite.com

A treasure trove - all ages, sizes and conditions.
Phil L.

L. Wakefield · February 02, 2002, 02:58:16 PM

QuoteThe responses from the sawyers all over the world are invaluable, stupid, and irreverent all at the same time.

'Invaluable, stupid, and irreverent R-US'

Wait, let me go get my sign! :D :D :D lw

L. Wakefield · February 02, 2002, 03:10:18 PM

QuoteFor log handling, Allis-Chalmers made a small crawler with a clam (grapple), and a used one in decent condition could probably be found for around 8 grand or so. You can skid with it too.

Ooh, beast, I like crawlers (you know that about me) and I hadn't heard of this one previously. Can you run some numbers and year of manufacture by me? I gotta check this out. My previous experience with a JD 420 crawler only half made a believer out of me- I don't like worn out tracks- but.. : lw

timberbeast · February 03, 2002, 12:09:04 AM

LW, it was my uncle's, so I don't know the model#, but I've been meaning to give him a call, will let you know when I do. He had the clutches go out on him on one track, used it for a year that way (back and fill, back and fill, can't turn left) and found out it would cost about a grand for the parts. He's 86, so he figured he's get by for the rest of his time with just his old Ford Speedomatic tractor. Sold it to a local dealer for 4 grand, the guy fixed it and sold it for 7500. My uncle was going to fix it himself (he can fix most anything), but my aunt was sick at the time, she passed last Feb., now he wishes he still had it! Used to plow the skid roads with it, now he's having trouble getting logs out. Hope I have that kind of problem at that age!! I'll let you know when I find out the model.

LeeB · February 04, 2002, 07:16:57 PM

Kieth, There a few guys in your area milling mesquite. Can't recall any names right now. Check woodweb.com, go to thier log buying forum and search for mesquite. You should be able to get some names that way. Give you a chance to see a mill in action. LeeB

Tom · February 04, 2002, 07:45:45 PM

Sometimes those other sites incidentally get some forestry/logging information on them but I've not found it to be too plentiful and have not found anyone but Forestry Forum (us) and Timber Buyer, www.timberbuyer.net , to have dedicated catagories on these subjects. About.com supplies some good info on occasion but they've been a little slow lately, I understand.

Sounds like there is some good information exchange going on now, nere, and it's hard to beat ''talking to a local Forester" to get information about buying and selling logs in a geographical area.

LeeB · February 05, 2002, 12:56:47 PM

Tom: I hope you didn't think I was trying to lead anyone away or detract from this forum. Was just trying to give Kieth a way to see some mils in his area. I for one very much enjoy this forum and have no intent on leaving. I don't post often, but then I don't talk much either. Not really a social person. LeeB

Bud Man · February 14, 2002, 05:47:56 PM

Hey Keith A ===Are you up to your eyeballs in brochures yet???

Keith_A · February 15, 2002, 11:19:30 AM

Not just brochures. I have found a few nice government publications that are kinda useful too. It seems there is no end to the people who make sawing, logging, and harvesting equipment but there is absolutely no concensus of what equipment is most important on a limited budget.