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My land survey and a possible error

Started by grweldon, August 30, 2013, 02:18:32 PM

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grweldon

I was going to start to construct a 500' fence along part of the 1100' northern boundary of my property.  I could only find one of the boundary pins set by the original survey so I thought it prudent to hire the surveyor who did the original survey to verify the existing markers before construction.

To make a long story short, the reason I couldn't find the remaining markers is because I was looking in the wrong place.  It would seem that my northern boundary description is about 210' south of where I thought it was.  Except for being a major bummer, this wouldn't be a problem except...

Before purchasing the land I viewed an aerial photo (in my possession) of the property with approximate boundarys drawn on the map.  This is the property I thought I purchase.  I know, doesn't mean squat.

The other issue is that the tax boundaries on Google maps shows the locations of boundaries that are the same as the aerial photos show AND they don't show another boundary where the original survey markers were put raising another question...  Am I paying taxes on land I don't own?

I don't think anybody can answer my questions, but I don't even know where to start to try and find the real situation.  There are about 5 acres in question.  I paid $1470 per acre and the original survey cost $3300.  A new survey may cost more and I don't know exactly what that would do for me other than confirm my suspicions that the original survey was incorrect.  To my understanding, it would not correct the description on my deed.

Anybody have any ideas where I might start to try and sort this all out?

Oh, and I don't possess the title, I'm still paying for the land.  Would the loan association be interested in this an possibly helping?
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

LeeB

You say original survey. Is the description on it the same as what was used when the purchase was recorded? Did you get title insurance? check what your legal description says. I would recommend getting a survey of your own. Be aware you may not find it to your liking though. I did mine several years after we bought. I found I had land where I thought I didn't some that I thought I did was not mine. I ended up with a few acres less than I though, but at least now I know what is what and where my lines actually are. You can get the legal description from the county courthouse and should be able to see the survey you mention there also.
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grweldon

I don't have the title in my possessions, the finance company has it.  I have title insurance for the areas specified on the survey done before I purchased, this is what I refer to as the "original survey".  I do not believe that I have paid for anything that isn't mine, just that I think what is mine is more than what the survey map shows.

I called the tax assessors office a few minutes ago.  The lady gave me doublespeak and suggested I come and look at the maps, which was where I thought I should starte anyway.  She said I can view all of the tax parcel boundaries at least two deep all around my property.  If the maps show another parcel between the northern border defined by the pins and where I think the northern border actually is (210' to the north of the pins), then I will have to accept that the pins are correct.  If it doesn't show another parcel, then what?  I think the land is mine but the survey says different?

Anyway, that's just a hypothetical situation for the time being.  I'll visit the assessors office soon!
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

LeeB

I don't know if surveys in AL give GPS co-ordinates for the pins, but if they do you could do a quick check on your own that way.
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thecfarm

My Father and me,I was young,so I just handled one end of the rope,use to measure land out on the farm,And there was alot of it. Not all square pieces either.There has been some that had thier land surveyed. Dad did a real good job.One place I gained about 20 feet and this was a piece of land a mile long. The footage was taken off the deeds. We started at the road and would go into the woods. Stonewalls help out alot too.
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SwampDonkey

We have properties here online with an aerial overlay. However, it states that these online maps are not legal surveys. And I know I also read that they were simply digitized off old maps. New surveys that get done since the system was set up are registered in the system, so if I sell the same parcel I don't have to pay a title fee and no one can dispute it down the road, as it is considered a quieted title. We found an error on one of these maps used to digitize from and it was a rectangle of land taken from a corner of the farm. And this area was a remote spot with no roads to it, except along a reserved right of way that exists only on paper, nothing built. There was never any such rectangle taken out and never described as such. It got fixed, but the neighbors got a hold of this map and cut our wood off it.  Again not a legal survey map, but someone used it as such to cut our wood. ::) That rectangle is now magically gone from the system.
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Jim_Rogers

Land survey company usually have insurance, called "errors and omissions" insurance. This is in case they make a major mistake, and it's suppose to cover their butt if they do.

If you find they were in error then use that fact to get your second survey cost reduced.

Sometimes this types of maps are drawn by the Realtor and they are not accurate at all. I don't know if you can go after them about that or not.

Figuring out which land your paying taxes on is very important.

Jim Rogers
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pigman

In my county you would be going to the wrong office. You should be going to the county clerk's office to see the actual survey and plat. The  tax assessors office in my county has most of the boundaries wrong. They just look at areal photos and guess at the boundaries.
Things turn out best for people who make the best of how things turn out.

Holmes

Most deeds have the description of the land listed on them and they are public information.  We have "registry of deeds" around here, by county. You should be able to get a copy of your deed and start measuring , plotting, your purchased area.
Think like a farmer.

North River Energy

As Holmes suggests, start by familiarizing yourself with your deed by way of the county registry.  Then work back in time to follow the previous deeds/chain of custody by grantor/grantee.  Look for consistencies from one deed to the next, and make notes of any outlying information.  You should probably follow the trail for the adjoining property(ies) as applicable.

You may be able to do a lot of this by way of the internet, if your registry has a searchable database.

This is an investment of your time, but it can be a valuable learning experience.  If you have more money than time, you can consult with/hire an abstractor to do much of the research at what should be a reasonable fee.

Most certainly do some legwork on your own prior to hiring another survey, as the surveyor will need to do similar research, and you will be in a better position to accept/reject their decision having done so.

Surveyors interpret data, and then delineate boundaries based on their interpretation. They are human, which makes them fallible. No doubt, more than one landowner has discovered their surveyor has made leaps in logic/linguistics in order to tell them what they wanted to hear, to their own eventual detriment.


Generally speaking, the tax maps are a poor indicator of who actually owns what.  I.E., the deed most likely supercedes the tax record.  A landowner may file a faulty deed/plan with the town, and the town may have no obligation to verify the validity of that deed, or square it with the adjoining properties prior to sending off the tax bill.  So long as the town gets their tax dollars, they don't need to care if the correct party is paying.

However you proceed, start with your own education to at least clarify your position.


mesquite buckeye

For AZ, it is the county recorder's office. I'm sure it is something similar, regardless of where you are.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

thecfarm

To lookup deeds here,where my house is,it's the County Courthouse.Than I own land in another town,I'm on 2 town lines,and 2 County lines,that is in a small city. On my tax map is a book number and page number. I need that to find what I want. But I suppose it could be looked up at the same place by your name. Copies are kinda pricey,but you will need that.It's VERY simple and VERY interesting to look up the deeds. I have sent a few people to lookup deeds and they all come back to tell me how simple and interesting it was. The clerks will point you in the right directions too. Or at least the ones around here do.I have been to 3 diffeant places and the hardest is just finding the place and finding parking.
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SwampDonkey

All properties here have an 8 digit number called a PID and then there is a PAN number which is where the ownership info is found. And that PAN could have 1 or several PID's because the owner has several properties. We haven't done things by counties in decades. But we have parishes within counties that the tax authority is under. I still think we have to go the the local Service NB desk within the county to see old documents since we have several parishes with no office to go to. I know in my county we have 2 offices, but probably 16 parishes.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

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dgdrls

O.K. lots of questions/thoughts here

Forget the tax boundaries they are approximate at best and prepared for a quick look and to assign Tax Numbers.

Do you have a copy of the survey map??   If not, get one
The actual survey map should tell the story right there, you did not mention if the pin you found was shown on the map.

I would first talk with the Land Surveyor that prepared the first survey and map
tell him your concern he/they should be able to defend/explain what they prepared.

Talk with your neighbors ask them for copies of maps or descriptions be honest tell them you have a concern and are uncertain.

As others have pointed out go the clerks office get your filed deed and then work the Grantor/Grantee index backwards.
Check those deeds back in time
You should also pull the adjoiners deeds and see if the common boundries are in harmony with yours.
The Surveyor who did the "first survey" should have done this at a minimum

With that, I am a bit confused on your situation are you concerned you are short on your land, long or shifted?

Also, it may be wise to engage another surveyor who has worked in that particular area in the past
he may have information such as old maps or survey files that others are not privy to or simply did not research.

Of Note, Alabama is a PLSS state
http://nationalatlas.gov/articles/boundaries/a_plss.html

remember, once man started to divide land it became a big jigsaw puzzle and all the pieces don't always fit.

let us know what happens.

best
DGDrls




 

pappy19

There are a number of pretty good suggestions and I will give you some of mine from 30 years of reviewing deeds, surveys and plats.
1) Do get your land surveyed based upon your warranty or quit claim deed.
2) Go to your county assessor and ask to see the tax map showing your property. Ask what the acerage that is listed on your assessment. See if that acerage matches the acerage you paid for and is consistant with your deed.
3) If there is an error either in the legal description or location, or both, then you may have a claim with the real estate agent, broker, title insurance and/or the original seller. If you accepted a quit claim deed, then you do not have a leg to stand on since that type of deed has no guarantee of anything. If you have a warranty deed, then the seller is warranting title via the legal description on the deed, which usually includes a total acerage.
4) If there is an issue with a boundary fence or legal description, then your surveyor will need to get a copy of the adjoining deed to see where there is a problem. Once identified, you will need to obtain a "Boundary Agreement" and then a notification of correction deed from your neighbor and also submit one for recording yourself. A copy of the registered surveyor's new plat of the new boundary or legal description should be attached to the recorded document.

Hope this helps; keep us posted as to your outcome.
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Brucer

Here in BC the legal boundaries are determined by official markers "on the ground". Iron pins, monuments, wooden posts, cairns, bearing trees, etc. The legal maps only show where the markers were placed.

My property has 9 12 sides and had never been surveyed. It was described by "meets and bounds". In other words, all the land around it had been "surveyed" so the legal description is made up entirely of references to the other properties.

Some of those properties had been laid out by surveyors and iron pins placed. One entire side of the property was defined by two three mining claims. The claims had been officially marked and recorded, but no one had done a formal survey on them. There were at least three maps showing where the mining claims were located, but none of the maps agreed.

I finally had the place surveyed. I lost a small part of it -- all the maps were wrong in that area but in 1949 a surveyor had discovered one of corner posts of one of the mining claims and marked it on his map.

I had found an iron pin when I bought the place and it corresponded roughly with one of the mining claims maps. But it was the wrong kind of iron pin and much too short. The only thing that gave it credibility was the remains of a tree beside it with a clear marking on the face -- BT 1/2. That meant "bearing tree" and 1/2 foot. Sure enough there was the pin, 6" away. This was where the corner was shown on one map, but hundreds of feet away from where it was shown on the other maps.

The surveyors were troubled by the pin, so they set out to find another corner of the mining claim, assuming the mysterious pin as correct. Two hundred metres away (700') mostly up hill over steep bedrock and thick forest, they came to a large area of bedrock with a hiking trail beside it. No evidence of a cairn (but hikers could have disturbed it over the hundred plus years since it was theoretically placed).

So the surveyors made a sharp turn and went looking for the next corner, another 200 metres away, more or less level but still through thick forest. They reached the edge of a gully filled with thick brush and really started to wonder if this was all worth it. Then one of them noticed a pile of rocks on the other side of the gully. They struggled across to it and found a cairn -- with a 4" square hole down the centre and some rotted wood in the bottom. Right where the mining claim corner should have been :).

Had they not found that cairn, I would probably have lost a significant chunk of my property. Had I not found the remains of that bearing tree, they probably would never have looked. And the only reason there were any remains of a tree to be found was that a forest fire had burned through here 100 years ago and pretty much kiln-dried the stump with it's marking.
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dgdrls

Pappy 19,  good input

I would add  number 4 must be used with great care and as a last resort. The surveyor should be looking at the adjoining deeds right out of the gate, he would/should only do this if he has exhausted all avenues in locating the "true" boundary and its simply undefinable due to conflicting deeds and field evidence or lack there of.

Lots of "rules of evidence" for the surveyor to follow
Including warranty deed v quit claim, deed intent,
Jr. Sr Rights based on parent parcel and order of other parcels being sold.
field evidence/monuments.
witness evidence.
PLSS system survey


DGDrls







grweldon

Quote from: pappy19 on September 01, 2013, 05:55:40 PM
There are a number of pretty good suggestions and I will give you some of mine from 30 years of reviewing deeds, surveys and plats.
1) Do get your land surveyed based upon your warranty or quit claim deed.
2) Go to your county assessor and ask to see the tax map showing your property. Ask what the acerage that is listed on your assessment. See if that acerage matches the acerage you paid for and is consistant with your deed.
3) If there is an error either in the legal description or location, or both, then you may have a claim with the real estate agent, broker, title insurance and/or the original seller. If you accepted a quit claim deed, then you do not have a leg to stand on since that type of deed has no guarantee of anything. If you have a warranty deed, then the seller is warranting title via the legal description on the deed, which usually includes a total acerage.
4) If there is an issue with a boundary fence or legal description, then your surveyor will need to get a copy of the adjoining deed to see where there is a problem. Once identified, you will need to obtain a "Boundary Agreement" and then a notification of correction deed from your neighbor and also submit one for recording yourself. A copy of the registered surveyor's new plat of the new boundary or legal description should be attached to the recorded document.

Hope this helps; keep us posted as to your outcome.

Here's what I've found...

I got the description from the deed and it matches the tax assessors title.  They have mapping software that plots the legal description.  The facts are that 3 points on the survey were wrong, dating back to the survey that was done when I bought the property.  When I contracted with the surveyor most recently, they just uncovered the incorrect pins that they set from the survey when I bought the place.

Bottom line, I just paid $500 for nothing.  I am contemplating meeting face-to-face with the surveyor (company owner, not the guys who did the work) and explain my case.  Best I'm hoping for is to get my money back or correcting the property markers.  I really don't need the pins corrected, I know where they should be from the tax map... it IS accurate.

Don't really know how to proceed.  Was going to contact the surveyor next week and try to arrange a meeting...
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

Magicman

The meeting should go well, and they should reimburse you.  If not, then be prepared to contact an attorney who will file an E&O (Errors and Omissions) suit.  All such professionals carry E&O insurance.
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mesquite buckeye

Or do it again correctly for fees already paid. >:(
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dgdrls

Quote from: grweldon on September 06, 2013, 07:54:05 AM
Quote from: pappy19 on September 01, 2013, 05:55:40 PM
There are a number of pretty good suggestions and I will give you some of mine from 30 years of reviewing deeds, surveys and plats.
1) Do get your land surveyed based upon your warranty or quit claim deed.
2) Go to your county assessor and ask to see the tax map showing your property. Ask what the acerage that is listed on your assessment. See if that acerage matches the acerage you paid for and is consistant with your deed.
3) If there is an error either in the legal description or location, or both, then you may have a claim with the real estate agent, broker, title insurance and/or the original seller. If you accepted a quit claim deed, then you do not have a leg to stand on since that type of deed has no guarantee of anything. If you have a warranty deed, then the seller is warranting title via the legal description on the deed, which usually includes a total acerage.
4) If there is an issue with a boundary fence or legal description, then your surveyor will need to get a copy of the adjoining deed to see where there is a problem. Once identified, you will need to obtain a "Boundary Agreement" and then a notification of correction deed from your neighbor and also submit one for recording yourself. A copy of the registered surveyor's new plat of the new boundary or legal description should be attached to the recorded document.

Hope this helps; keep us posted as to your outcome.

Here's what I've found...

I got the description from the deed and it matches the tax assessors title.  They have mapping software that plots the legal description.  The facts are that 3 points on the survey were wrong, dating back to the survey that was done when I bought the property.  When I contracted with the surveyor most recently, they just uncovered the incorrect pins that they set from the survey when I bought the place.

Bottom line, I just paid $500 for nothing.  I am contemplating meeting face-to-face with the surveyor (company owner, not the guys who did the work) and explain my case.  Best I'm hoping for is to get my money back or correcting the property markers.  I really don't need the pins corrected, I know where they should be from the tax map... it IS accurate.

Don't really know how to proceed.  Was going to contact the surveyor next week and try to arrange a meeting...

So the survey map and description are correct and the pins in the field were set incorrectly?

I would certainly meet with the surveyor,  he is still responsible for any corners his crew sets

Have the pins moved to their correct position.  If your placing fence on the line make certain the property markers
are inter-visible for simplicity sake.

DGDrls

Larro Darro

Fifty to sixty years ago my grandfather put up cross fences were he thought the land lines were. Each piece was forty acres and each of the kids got one. Fast forward to four years ago, one of my cousins had their land surveyed. All the land lines are off by ninety feet. It puts my old house real close to the land line, but it is something I can live with.

But the fence between the 40 I live on and the 40 of a different cousin is 90 feet to my bad. The west end of her 40 is 90 feet to her bad. Her BIL owns the next 40 and he loses 90 feet to me on the next 40. Since it all comes out the same in the end, no one has sprung for a survey. But if anyone sells, it will have to be done. The cost of clearing out old fence rows and putting up new fence would be big, not to mention a huge PITA.
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dgdrls

Quote from: Larro Darro on September 07, 2013, 07:16:07 PM
Fifty to sixty years ago my grandfather put up cross fences were he thought the land lines were. Each piece was forty acres and each of the kids got one. Fast forward to four years ago, one of my cousins had their land surveyed. All the land lines are off by ninety feet. It puts my old house real close to the land line, but it is something I can live with.

But the fence between the 40 I live on and the 40 of a different cousin is 90 feet to my bad. The west end of her 40 is 90 feet to her bad. Her BIL owns the next 40 and he loses 90 feet to me on the next 40. Since it all comes out the same in the end, no one has sprung for a survey. But if anyone sells, it will have to be done. The cost of clearing out old fence rows and putting up new fence would be big, not to mention a huge PITA.

Well, maybe not,  were the parcels divided out by the fences??  if the original fences are still up and everyone agrees with the fences no need to cause indigestion.  File corrective deeds based on the fences.  I have run across this in some city blocks to a smaller degree,  1-2 feet.  fences, ocupation lines, hedges all shifted in the same direction.  If you try to fix 1 you must fix all and then your upsetting boundries that are uncontested and in harmony with each-other. 

DGDrls

beenthere

Quote from: Larro Darro on September 07, 2013, 07:16:07 PM
Fifty to sixty years ago my grandfather put up cross fences were he thought the land lines were. Each piece was forty acres and each of the kids got one. Fast forward to four years ago, one of my cousins had their land surveyed. All the land lines are off by ninety feet. It puts my old house real close to the land line, but it is something I can live with.

But the fence between the 40 I live on and the 40 of a different cousin is 90 feet to my bad. The west end of her 40 is 90 feet to her bad. Her BIL owns the next 40 and he loses 90 feet to me on the next 40. Since it all comes out the same in the end, no one has sprung for a survey. But if anyone sells, it will have to be done. The cost of clearing out old fence rows and putting up new fence would be big, not to mention a huge PITA.

If all could agree that the fences are where they want them to stay, then some quit-claim deeds might correct the problem for the future.
south central Wisconsin
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Larro Darro

I'm not even sure my cousins know the land lines are off. They all live in Rome Ga and don't get down here that often. Plus I still hold out the hope of buying at least one of the 40's. Until someone sells out of the family, I'm not going to worry about it. Changing it to match the fences would mean my home 40 would lose 2.7 acres, but the 40 at the pond would gain 2.7 acres.
Make good money. Five dollars a day.
Made anymore, I might move away.

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