Are kilns Always necessary?

[Rod Yowell]

Hello Guys,
       My friend and I are pulling the trigger on a Millwood mill this Friday. I have given up on trying to sell my 10 acres of cleared trees that I have from my lake site. We have decided to keep them, mill them and plan on using the lumber for our buildings we have planned on this property. My question is this.
   

With the amount of logs and our time frame coming into winter, I don't want to stop and build a kiln until spring. Can we just stack the milled lumber on 1"x 2" material in large stacks and cover with tarps or plastic for the winter? Or do we need to dry the wood in a kiln as we go?

Thanks for all your help.

[WDH]

You can air dry it while you wait for a kiln.  You want to build a foundation for each stack.  The foundation needs to be level and the first layer of boards needs to be at least 10 - 12" off the ground.  The stack foundation will be as long as your boards are.  The cross-supports on the foundation need to line up with the stickers that you will use as spacers between the layers of lumber.  So, for a 10' long stack, you need a cross-support at 0', 2', 4', 6', 8' and 10'.  The stack width is best at 4' wide so that you get good air flow.  I have found 5' wide to be the max you should go with.  Prone to stain species like yellow poplar and pine need a 4' wide stack.  Cover the stack with a roof leaving an air space between the last layer of boards and the roof.  Old roofing tin works well.  If you use a tarp, do not wrap over the lumber because the boards will not get air and will stain, spoil, mildew, rot, etc.  So a tarp can only be a cover over the lumber, and the lumber has to have open air on all sides.  Here is a pic of a foundation and stack.



 

[beenthere]

Very neat looking example of the way to pile and sticker wood, and explanation of "how to".

Others may offer some more examples of their drying piles to hold your lumber waiting for the dry kiln to be built. The stickered lumber pile will help when the kiln doesn't meet a start-up deadline.

[mesquite buckeye]

Very nice stack. I use twice as many stickers since I have lumber from a lot of small trees from thinnings and they like to move like crazy.

Watch out for powderpost beetles in your sapwood. They like to show up a year after you cut your lumber. If you spray with timbore or other borate product, they will be less. If you are using the lumber for construction, air drying is all you need (still need to treat). If a 2X8 shrinks 1/8 inch after you install it, who cares? Different deal if the wood is for flooring, millwork or furniture. ;D 8) 8)

[Rod Yowell]

Thanks for the information fellows. I will follow your advice.

[red oaks lumber]

when choosing a location to "air dry" remember the single biggest factor.

air flow   air flow    air flow. those 3 things will help your lumber dry down with as few of issues as can expect.

[Kingcha]

The next load going into the solar kiln

 


 

almost as neat as WDH's  I'm working on that.  lol

I am very fortunate to have a power line going through the property giving me great air flow.

I only got 2+ more months and the tarp building has to come down for the winter.

matt

[Ianab]

For construction uses there is probably no need for the wood to go into a kiln at all, Air dried in stacks like the guys have shown is fine. It's even possible to build with green wood straight off the saw and let it dry in place. There are a few precautions and techniques to be used, but for a barn or shed, you can just start building.

Interior uses like flooring, trim and furniture are probably better being kiln dried, or at least finishing the air drying in a controlled environment. Similar to where the wood is going to end up.

Ian

[Randy88]

We've never kiln dried anything, its all air dried, at one time we had over 30k board feet of lumber in lumber piles, we stack it sitting on cement blocks if we don't have cement available to set it on, cover it with old used tin and some more cement blocks on top of the tin to hold it down.   We keep it piled about five years before using it for furniture, less for building materials.   

Two years ago we went to the pallet system I saw on here, where you can lift a portion of the pile off, so we can sort them by length, grade and kind of wood, and I try to keep the piles small enough so my skid steer can pick them up and move them around, its saved me more in handling than I can ever begin to say.   I stack the piles on top of each other and I've condensed the piles to two sheds, nothing sits out anymore, which is great.   

We take the lumber into the house after its planed but before we do anything with it, we let it acclimate to the climate of the house, where the furniture will end up anyhow, if it warps, or cups we just go get another board and plane that until we have what we need for doing our project at that time.   

[Jemclimber]

That is one very neat, nice looking stack WDH.  I can't tell how high it is, but I like to stack my piles pretty high. The only thing I try to make sure to do is add a layer of extra thick stickers every so many layers so that my forks can grab a section and lower it to make it easy to unstack when they're ready to be used.  For my tractor that's about a four foot wide stack and about 3 feet high.

[WDH]

That was the sycamore from the Sycamore Project #1.  It dried perfectly with only a few flatsawn boards with a bit of warp and twist.  Most all of it was quartersawn.  It is a shame to cut nice boards and ruin them with a poorly made stack. 

[bedway]

Back in 1994 i built my 32x32 work shop out of lumber that had been sawed the day before. Not any problems!

[mesquite buckeye]

I think that is the trick. If you will construct a building with the green lumber, right away is the best time. They all hold each other in place as they dry in the framing. ;D

[thecfarm]

With what I do with my lumber,I don't need a kiln. I could use one,but don't need one. I built the wife a Veggie Shack. I had to cut some trim boards and get them sticked and drying before I started to build. A kiln would of helped than. Took me a summer to need the trim boards.

[mesquite buckeye]

I've never needed a kiln for my Missouri wood. If we were going to use it inside, we just stickered the air dry wood for a month in the house. Same deal when I haul to AZ. Give it a month or so to do its thing.

[Kelly Palmer]

thinking about cutting cookies out of a ten foot wide red oak.... and then going with PEG, OR SOME STUFF CALLED Pentacryl.....any advice?

[PC-Urban-Sawyer]

I think you'll find the PEG to be too expensive to use for this process. I think you'll be more likely to get useable/marketable product by "slabbing" the log longitudinally, ie along the grain. It's quite possible (probable???) that you will discover the heart of a log that large to be rotten and unusable.

Good luck with your project.

Herb

[Kelly Palmer]

PEG is pretty high, but I have been working on the limbs, and several cookies cut already.... I see the wanting to split, any advice?

[beenthere]

When the wood dries, it shrinks and that causes the splits. Takes very little drying out on the ends of the logs to start the splitting as the wood just in a ways from the ends has not dried and is not shrinking.

As soon as cut, the end grain should be coated with something like Anchorseal (the best per testimony from other FF members).

Some pics of your project will help a lot to answer your questions. ;)

I'm not sure what is " 10' wide " or how you plan to saw through 10' of wood.

[red oaks lumber]

my guess it was a typo  :(

[Kelly Palmer]

No on the type o....It was the biggest oak in Ola....and have been told it is a black oak.....but it sure is red.  I only have a three foot bar, and don't think it will be hallo enough to reach the center.  Am not sure whether to by an Alaskan with a twelve foot bar?? or to try to get someone with a Lucas?...or lease one? I am thinking about trying to cu to the center with my saw, and see if I hit hallo middle.  Any thoughts?

[mesquite buckeye]

I'm thinking even a Lucas won't get that done. Why would you want to cut cookies? They are pretty much guaranteed to crack to pieces. I have heard from a guy who cuts cookies at an angle, maybe shifted 20 or 30 degrees from square and the grain offset allows it to dry without cracking. Don't know, you will only get one shot with this one. Good luck. When do we get to see the picture of it? ;D 8) 8)

Is this tree still standing or is it down? If you start probing around on it, you might ruin it. If it is going to have hollow or other rot, that will become apparent at the stump. They used to make extra long crosscut saws for the big western trees. Hate to have to buy a bar/saw for just one job. If it really is 10' in diameter, you can take it down with a 5-6ft saw with no problem cutting from both sides. There is a technique where you might even be able to do it with a 4'. It involves making a cleanout of the center area by reaching in through the face cut.

[beenthere]

It was the biggest oak in Ola

Where is Ola ??

And is there a chance to get some pics of this big oak?

[Kelly Palmer]

Tamaha....a little town close to Stigler Okla,  about 40 miles west of Ft Smith Ark.   I talked to a man in Ca. that is cutting giant cookies out of some old redwoods, and selling them to museums, or whoever wants them.  They are making timeline marks on them, and they go back 2,600 years.  I'm wanting to do the same on this one, but I don't figure it will be over 500 years old.  Now if my cheese is slipping off of my cracker....do you mind telling me. U can friend me on fb, and see pics...I don't know how to get them on here. 

[GAmillworker]

 Welcome Kelley Palmer

I found you on face book here is a pic of the big oak tree. 


 

 

[mesquite buckeye]

That is a big ugly. Looks like a bigger problem to tip it over than to cut it. Looks more like 8ft than 10 unless the guy is really tall. Regardless, a big cut. The way that thing sits, I don't think you even need a face cut. just cut halfway on the low side, halfway on the high side. Have a chain pre-hooked to the top and other end loosely to power, 2X or better the height of Mr. Stubby. Pull it over when you cut most of the holding wood. I think a 5 ft bar gets it done no problem.

No sign of rot in the branches I can see. ;D

[Kelly Palmer]

I think that man is pretty tall...and yeah, 8' once you get up a ways, but right at ten down low, and then spreads out again at limbs.  Who has a Lucas that can come up and cut it up?

[mesquite buckeye]

If it is really 10ft, you need a bar at least that long and it has to be absolutely perfectly set too. I just don't know if Lucas makes one that big. I'll go look.

Lucas slabbing mill will cut up to 6' 4".

If you want to do this you will need another option.

[GAmillworker]

Kelley,

This is Daniel I started another thread over in sawing and milling.  You may want to ask your question there and get a better response.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,69509.0.html

[Kelly Palmer]

How about an Alaskan setup, with a 10' bar?

[mesquite buckeye]

I'd say at least 10, if the bumps are as wide as you say. Probably a couple days work at least.

[White Ash]

Dry is dry, does not matter how it gets there, as long as there some control

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

There are certain things you can do in drying in the kiln that are not good or are good, even though the MC is the same as some other lumber.  The operator's techniques are critical.

A kiln will be faster.
A kiln will go over 133 F, thereby sanitizing the lumber (no insects alive, no viable eggs, no fungi).
A kiln can equalize, getting uniform MC, shell to core, end to end, and piece to piece.
A kiln can relieve drying stress.
A kiln can "set the pitch" by going to 160 F or hotter (give or take)
A kiln can control drying conditions to achieve the highest quality possible--checking, warp, color, etc.

A kiln can over-dry the wood leading to more warp, especially cupping, brittleness and possibly poor gluing.
A kiln can dry the wood at too high a temperature making the wood too brittle and darker in color.
A kiln can dry wet lumber too fast leading to checks.
A kiln can dry too slowly leading to staining.

Bottom line is that the final MC is not a good indicator of quality in any and all drying systems.