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How many people do milling full time and make a living?

Started by amgont75, August 23, 2013, 12:05:50 AM

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amgont75

I know there are old threads with this topic but most I see are over a year old.  The economy has gotten "better" on paper.

Since I am new here and asking a lot of newbie questions there is one I would like a lot of feedback on.  If you are doing this full time are you making a living from it?  I am wanting to start this up full time and want to make a decent living. 

I know about how much it would cost to get all new equipment and a basic list of what  would need.  But I would like honest feedback on if in your area your making it.  I know I will get a lot of views on this and probably not a lot of public comments.  If you would rather send me an email if you don't want to publicly tell your story.

Thank you in advance for your feedback and I hope to get a lot of good reading material.

Andrew (one of the new guys)
Andrew From Arizona

Ron Wenrich

I've sawn in a commercial hardwood mill for many decades.  My experience probably isn't what you're looking for. 

What you need to find is a niche.  Some have made that niche in doing custom sawing where they go to where the logs are, and don't have a permanent type of operations.  Others have permanent locations and have the logs come to them. 

You need to figure out some basic things.  Are you interested in selling lumber or selling services?  You can do both.  One requires you to maintain an inventory, and that takes room.  You'll always face the problem of not having what the customer wants in stock.  You also tie up a lot of capital in inventory, whether its in logs or lumber.

I see you list your location as Arizona.  What are you going to offer that is different from others in the area?  If you're planning to offer dimension stock like that down at the local box store, you won't be able to compete.  If you plan to offer beams, for example, you need to build up a clientele.  Get your marketing in place before you jump in.

New equipment is great, but costly.  Sometimes its better to go with used until you can afford newer things.  You want to get the best bang for your buck.  You may want to describe what you consider basic equipment.  Others may have different input.

How much mill experience do you have?  There is a learning curve that is associated with any type of mill, whether its band, circular, chainsaw or swing.  That learning curve comes out of your pocket. 

If you don't have a business plan, better get started in developing one.  You will need to identify your market, its size, your competition, and how you're going to be different or better.  Good luck in your endeavor.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

bandmiller2

Andy,their is probably a small handful of guys here making a living milling full time.Most of us use the mill part time or in conjuction with another operation like tree work or post and beam builder.Its a very steep hill to climb just starting out and expecting to make a good living.What I'am saying is get a mill but keep your day job,work at it gain experience and you will know when and if you can make the switch. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Bibbyman

Your questions made me smile.  :)

I could tell you everything I know and it probably wouldn't be of use to you.

It comes down to if you're capable of being self-employed and can run your own business.  Most people can't. It takes many hats (skill sets) and a tremendous amount of work.  It becomes 24/7. You just don't clock out and go home.  That's generic to any small business be it a body shop, welding shop, beauty salon,  or septic tank pumper.

In our case, Mary has an extensive background in finance, accounting, taxes and insurance. I give myself the title of "head of maintenance and material handling". I also had a lot of exposure to logging and sawmills as my dad logged and three uncles ran mills.  So we didn't start from ground zerro.

Supply and demand is the a real killer.  You have to have both in control (virtually impossible) and be able to turn supply into the product demanded and make a profit.

Other than that, it's easy.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Dewey

Yep... It's tuff ,I saw full time with one helper.... It's a constant battle trying to keep all the equipment running  . Trying to stay on top of ALL aspects of running a business is tuff also... I would try to find a niche , It took me 6-7 years to find mine all in all I wouldn't have it any other way !!!   Good luck !!

terrifictimbersllc

In some of the older posts on this you'll find the question:  "what kind of living do you want to make?"
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Bibbyman

But you need many niches.  Because niches come and go.  One of our largest customers has been on the financial ropes for years now looks to be down for the count.  They have been running on borrowed money for years and been robbing Peter to pay Paul. For years. They have often been slow to pay and going from sawmill to sawmill until they have no one left that will bring them product.  We've not taken them much since the first of the year and they are about 4 months behind paying for what we had taken them. The loss of their business has caused us to dramatically reduce our flooring lumber production,  our other big market. We are filling the void by doing custom sawing and small local orders.  Still our sawing volume is cut in half at least. We'll be ok.  We've weathered these kinds of redirections before.  It's maybe the only advantage to being small is that you can be nimble and adaptive.  If you set up to optimize on one product and one market, you are putting your eggs in one basket.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Bibbyman

Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on August 23, 2013, 08:13:57 AM
In some of the older posts on this you'll find the question:  "what kind of living do you want to make?"

I was talking to Mary about this post as she  was making breakfast.   She shook a wooden spoon and said, "Tell, him to get a crock pot and fill them with beans because you'll have to eat a lot of them. And a pair of good Carrhartt jeans because you're going to wear them the next 10 years.".   
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

BBTom

yea, well I have been full time for the last 12 years and no, I have not made a decent living.  I have survived the last 5 years by the skin of my teeth.  Much of the problem has to do with my location and the economy.

I am located close to one of the largest Amish communities in the country.  They have lots of sawmills, and lots of kids to work them with.  They keep the price of sawing depressed with their "free" labor.

I had a good portable sawing business going and was starting to make money 5 years ago, then the housing bubble burst.  Everyone was scared to spend any money.  Much of the backstock in woodworkers barns got used up during those years. Nobody was building homes, so no hardwood was needed for cabinets, floors, mantles, panelling or trim.  Seems like what business was left went to the bigger mills.  The only local broker of hardwood refused to take loads from anyone but the large mills.

I have survived on my good repeat customers, it has been touch and go for the last 3 years, thankfully my wife has a decent job.  Jobs are starting to come in this summer, and things are starting to look up again.  My main business still is custom sawing, the kiln is starting to be booked a couple loads ahead again, and I have a couple jobs sitting on the lot ahead of me again.  We will see if it continues. 

Bottom line, over the last 10 years, I could have made more money working for someone else, but I love what I do.


 
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

amgont75

Thanks all,

      This is what I need.  I wrote this thread before bed last night and was excited when I got up to read it.  You all have great points and I thank you for sharing them.  My background is not in the timber industry so I will have a learning curve.  I have had my own business and ran it for a few years so I know what it takes to do that.
Andrew From Arizona

EZland

amgont75,
Man I love this question.  I am retiring from the military this year and working up my business plan.  I have mostly made funiture, country and rustic type, but I am interested in being my own boss in a "wood" business. I bought a manual mill last year to salvage 75 trees from a tornado and it has not quite paid for its self.  But then again I am not full time and I have using it as a woodworking tool not fully as a lumber making.   I have completed a ton of cost savings projects to justify having it (solar kiln, sevral peices of quality funiture, couple hundred feet of fence rails and my son's Eagle Scout project for pennies. Also I still have about 1200 bf of lumber still air drying. 

  Yes, I am hearing all the tough answers from the others on FF, but that is good knowing what you are getting into, so I am thankful for all their honest answers.  So I will conitinue to research the market and see what I really want to do.  Use "a" mill a just another woodworking tool for funiture, do custom sawing or mobile sawing or all of the above.    I have about 8 months until I am off the military payroll and recieving retirement pay.  SO my rearch on the market continues.  Heck some of the guys on here are not to far from me couple of hours I may hit them up to be an off bearer for the day to learn more, even if it is just from just a good friendship. 

There are some small local mills around me, but either they won't talk to you or they are afraid you will steal their customers.  I am not interested in going big.... it is more of going solo and a once in a while day help. 

Then there is option B, go to work for someone else until I have it all figured out. 
EZ Boardwalk Jr. 30", Husky 455, Kioti 5010 w, FEL , And I just moved to Ohio.and still looking for logs.

God is great!  I will never be as good as the "Carpenter's Son"

amgont75

Thank for posting EZ. 

Anything you find in your research that you would like to share would help me out as well.  Hope your going to enjoy retirement from the military.  And I would also like to tank you for serving us.

Hope to see your posts again,

Andrew
Andrew From Arizona

dboyt

All new equipment?  If you plan to take out a loan or lease equipment, and make enough money from day 1 to make payments and a living for yourself, you'd better reconsider.  Your support equipment can easily cost you double the price of the sawmill itself, and the government, bankers, & insurance companies will want their piece of the action.  Maybe a new sawmill, but take your time and find good quality used support equipment.  How far into debt do you plan to go, and what are you willing to risk?
Norwood MX34 Pro portable sawmill, 8N Ford, Lewis Winch

amgont75

I don't want to go into a lot of debt and I would like to ease my way in.  I would like a dependable mill but they are hard to find around here.  So from a worse case scenario looking at it I have to price everything as new.  This is all for a business plan to see what I can get interest for. 
Andrew From Arizona

Dan_Shade

a very rudimentary way to see of you can make a go of it is to start with how much money you would like to take home at the end of the month. 

to this number add your operating costs (labor, maintenance, equipment costs, rent, utilities, etc...). 

then see how much material you need to move to meet that bottom line.

and finally, determine of your goal is feasible.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

drobertson

I'm quite sure If Bibby's wife Mary and My wife Christy were to talk there would be some ears somewhere burning ;D  thankfully I like ham and beans ;D  being in Arizona is so foreign to me I would not even dare to speculate on your market out there.  Low overhead has helped me, and hurt me, lumber in the sense of markets is a volume base market.  However, there are the niches that have been mentioned that can bring in a good income, it takes, as said, 24/7 Johnny on the spot service,  I load and unload almost every Sunday at any given time, (after church), just have to, and the folks appreciate it, is it a mother load?,  no, just service and a break from whatever else I'm doing, hopefully not dishes ;D   It seems like the market has been a feast and famine situation for some time now,  you must enjoy it and have a back up plan through the famine,   david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Cedarman

When i started in the cedar business it was because a company said, "you saw it, we will buy it".  Commodity prices.  We had to make a lot of mailbox posts and 5/8" lumber.  They even bought the low grade.  Worked great until about 06 when that company got bought out and I went from 90% to them in Indiana and Alabama to 0% in about 4 months.  We had to change on a dime.  The internet saved us because customers from around the US and the world could easily find us at www.cedarusa.com. I picked that name because I wanted people to think we covered the whole US.  We went from buying 8' logs to buying lots of tree length to make the odd lengths that were being asked for.  Last container we exported had from 8' to 18' in increments of 1' lengths.  They met my price.  3 containers this year.  Not big by industry standards, but big for us.  We have had to be nimble and inventive. 
We basically pioneered the custom ERC business in the US by selling about any width, thickness and length that you might want. We listened to our customers, figured out how to do it, priced to make money and found there is a huge demand for custom cedar wood from rough sawn to S4S and shipping is not an order stopper.
My point is do your best to find what customers want that they are not getting and meet those needs.  Stay away from commodity work except to sell there the by product that you make for specialty markets.
Develop a pleasant personality and a can do attitude.  Study, study, study.  Read this forum, Sawmill and Woodlot mag.  Read the trade journals.  Read equiment sale mags.
Make a detailed business plan.  Make 4 or 5 for different scenerios.
All the other posts had very pertinent points.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

amgont75

Thank you Cedarman.   Your business would be a great model to follow.  I looked at your website and its great.  I would be happy to talk to you more and learn your business success.  I don't want to get into the cedar since there is none near me.  But follow by example.

Thanks,

Andrew
Andrew From Arizona

T Welsh

I second what Bibby said!!
Quote from: Bibbyman on August 23, 2013, 08:29:57 AM
Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on August 23, 2013, 08:13:57 AM
In some of the older posts on this you'll find the question:  "what kind of living do you want to make?"

I was talking to Mary about this post as she  was making breakfast.   She shook a wooden spoon and said, "Tell, him to get a crock pot and fill them with beans because you'll have to eat a lot of them. And a pair of good Carrhartt jeans because you're going to wear them the next 10 years.".   
Good luck! Tim

ladylake

 
You're going to need logs and a decent place to sell lumber, custom sawing pays a lot of my bills but it took a few years to get enough customers.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

red oaks lumber

heres a angle most dont think about. your body will wear out! ive' ran my buisness hard for 15 yrs, now im on disability without any pay. my shoulder is full of arthirtis, my neck has bone on bone. i get injections but, it only reduces the pain to maybe a 6 on the pain scale.
i guess what i'm telling anybody reading this.machines wear out and so do we! being in the wood buisness is a very powerful drug that will pull you in but,think things thru for the long haul so it dosent get you!
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

WoodenHead

Right now milling is my full time employment.  Although I enjoy it, it can be very difficult to make it profitable.  The work is hard and the pay is usually very bad (sometimes it amounts to $5/hr or worse).  There are times when you do well though and there are a few on this forum who do okay.  If you have the customer base, custom milling is the better route (IMO).  If you're selling lumber or finished products, your list of necessary equipment/infrastructure goes up.

If you can ease into it, that's great.  Keep your job and work at it slowly.  If you need a paycheque from your lumber business, I think you'll find it next to impossible to ease into it.  There is a certain amount of investment you need to get into the business (particularly selling lumber/products).

dgdrls

still running in the negative.  But its not my full time job,
Plan is to saw full time after I decide to "retire"  Unless
something changes my plans.

DGD

amgont75

Hi all,

     Thanks for all this wonderful feedback.  If I offered custom cutting there would be a little traveling involved.  Which I don't mind doing.  Most of the trees around here would be urban since there isn't make forests in Phoenix lol. 

     Have any of you ever networked with tree services to get their logs and try to save them money from dumping them?  Just wondering how it went and what was involved?  Out here there are ALOT of lawn care/tree service companies.

     Right now my wife works and I am trying to get this up and running to bring in a paycheck and if everything happens perfectly I could support us and she can come help.  I know those are mostly dreams from what most of you are saying.  But as some of you say it depends on the person and their drive and background.  Also in some cases a little luck.

Keep sharing your thoughts.  I thank you all for sharing.
Andrew From Arizona

Cedarman

You might research how many people have attachments to their yard trees and hate to see them go.  You could provide a service of sawing those trees, drying the lumber and teaming with a cabinet maker or other wood worker to make something from those logs that the homeowner could cherish forever.  These kinds of things get you much more money because you are selling sizzle and the steak.  The homeowner will be happy and when people visit that homeowner they will want to show it off.  This is how word of mouth helps out.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

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