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Unlicensed Practice of Forestry- Georgia

Started by Claybraker, August 10, 2013, 02:28:56 PM

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Claybraker

I'm looking for some advice here. Mom's health isn't good, and her new attorney my SIL brought in has been trying to come up with a value for the estate. Or at least that's what she claims.

Part of Mom's estate includes a tract of land with timber on it. No problem. We've got a forester that recently supervised a thinning, he's also a licensed appraiser, no problem.

The guy is about six weeks out, so this attorney wants to use someone from St. Simons Island. Danny, if you are reading this, I've checked the list, and can't find a forester on St. Simons. She's also being very vague about exactly who she's going to have do the cruise. I've asked her point blank, but her response is " a firm that many of the large corporations and family landowners use."

Bottom line, she's lying. Any idea on how I should proceed.?

beenthere

Claybreaker.
Interesting trying to sort through the post.
Is "Mom" the "she" and the "her", or maybe the attorney? or maybe the daughter, as you mentioned SIL ??

And wondering what/why you are suspicious of your mother?  It is her estate (or not?) that someone is trying to put a value on.

Nothing to suggest other than sounds like Mom is saying "butt out" and I'm taking care of business. But I could be missing something from the post.

Or, are you guardian of Mom and know you are executor of the estate when Mom passes from poor health?
Trying to fit where you fit in this picture. ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

mesquite buckeye

Lots of brothers and sisters end up not speaking to each other forever when estates come up. Walk with caution, my friend. If you think something funny is going on, talk to Mom about your concerns. The more this kind of stuff gets settled before your mom is gone, the better for everybody. If Mom lets everybody know her intentions, the siblings can get mad at her instead of each other if they don't like it. Remember it is her stuff, after all, and she can leave it to whoever she wants to. :-X
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Claybraker

My bad. Mom has a brain tumor, and is no longer able to manage her affairs. Or speak, walk, feed herself, etc. The attorney was brought in when my father passed away in May, and she insisted Mom write a new will. We were seeing signs of Mom's diminshed capacity even then. The old one called for a 3 way split.

It's important that we have an accurate cruise of the timber, because that will be our cost basis if and when we sell the timber. It's a twenty year old pine plantation, so it's getting close. We have a previous business relationship with a forester, he's licensed in Georgia. I don't know why she (the attorney) insists on using some firm that is not licensed to practice forestry in this state.

mesquite buckeye

Then better get together with the other siblings. An open discussion, even a heated one, is always better than wondering what people are up to. The key question would be, "Why do you want to use this person?" Sometimes it is possible to get together to find someone agreeable to all parties. Failing that, everyone can each nominate a person that they believe to be fair and honorable, and those people, who have no stake in the outcome are allowed to pick the forester.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Ianab

Is it being done by a (registered) land valuer? Giving a valuation on the land (and trees) if they where put on the market today.  That's the actual value you need, not some potential harvest value in 10 years time. The number, age and quality of the trees will of course have a significant impact on the value, land with 20 year old trees is worth more then the same with 2 year old trees. But the actual market value of the trees if harvested right now might be close to zero?

I don't think a forester would actually be qualified to give you that market value of the whole package?

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Leigh Family Farm

Is it possible to have both the Forester and the Attorney's Appraiser complete a valuation report? Or have the Appraiser do a report for current land value and land value without timber? I agree with Ianab that land value and timber value in current dollars will be different. If the Forester showed that by holding the land for 5 more years the timber would be worth $XXX and the Appraiser can show that the land is currently valued at $YYYY, that information would be useful for you and your siblings to determine the best course of action.

As an example: Forester says the timber will be worth $25,000 in 5 years and the Appraiser says the land is worth $100,000 without timber or $115,000 with timber. Would you be willing to wait 5 years to get the $125,000? Or just sell now at $115,000 and be done with it?

Either way, open discussions are the best ones. I truly hope you and your siblings come away from this still as a family.
There are no problems; only solutions we haven't found yet.

Roxie

Is this to establish the value of the asset upon distribution to the estate?  This is sometimes done because the "inherited" value can be tax free, but when the property is sold any value above the established baseline is taxed. 

If the only reason is for tax purposes, it doesn't matter what an appraiser thinks the value will be ten years from now (like Ianab said).  I'd let the attorney get whomever they think will get the job done, and then see what you think of the assessment. 
Say when

Claybraker

My siblings and I are in agreement. It's the attorney that wants to bring in someone new. This is the attorney's first time handling timber land, and someone gave her the name of someone. The attorney won't tell me who it is, but she mentioned the town they are in, and as far as I can tell, there is no one licensed to practice forestry on St. Simons.

A little more background. We live about 300 miles away, the value of the land and timber is probably 3-400k, which is maybe 5% of the value of the estate, but it's been in Mom's family for almost 200 years, so there is some emotional attachment.

Establishing an accurate cost basis for the standing timber is important if we ever sell it. At this point, since neither I nor my siblings trust this attorney, and she wants to bring in someone new, instead of the consultant that handled the thinning 3 years ago, I'm very concerned.

Ianab

But they are only getting a valuation at this stage?

I'd just wait for it to come though, it will be on the company letterhead and you can check their credentials. If it's not from a licensed valuer, then it's not worth the paper it's printed on. It also doesn't affect the eventual sale of the trees by whoever ends up with the land. It would have a bearing if one sibling decided to retain the property as part of the estate distribution. Otherwise, if the land was sold and the proceeds distributed, then some prior valuation has little relevance any more, you know the TRUE market value once a sale goes through.  If the land is retained by the family in a trust or estate then the book value only really matters to the trust accountant.

I would also think there is no reason YOU can't commission your own valuation of the property using your own appraiser. Probably cost a few hundred dollars, but if you are going to contest the value the lawyer comes up with, you need that. If the 2 appraisals are close enough then there is no point arguing over a 10% difference. If one is 50% different, then it might be time to lawyer up?

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

beenthere

Sounds like, given your Mom's state of health, that a Power of Attorney or being appointed guardian by a court or judge is in order.
Thanks for clearing up that "she" is the attorney.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Claybraker

Yep, Mom has already been declared unable to manage her own affairs. And I agree, it's time for me to lawyer up. Just looking for more ammo to use against this attorney, when the time comes.

SwampDonkey

That appraissal of the timber value is just a snapshot in time. Not even an insurance company would cover a projected value of a crop in the future. Or even insure a cruise against what is actually harvested. That appraissal, unless there is some kind of tax program involved to use the appraissal as a basis, is really only of any value when the asset is sold around the time frame of the appraissal. On it's own, it would be of little use for setting a value in the future.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

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beenthere

QuoteMom has already been declared unable to manage her own affairs.

And the power of attorney is ?? 

The "She" attorney?  If so, she is in pretty full control, seems to me.
Or is it another sibling?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

WDH

Claybraker,

I do not know if there is a Forester on St Simons Island.  I am sorry that you are having this trouble.  Hopefully, you will be able to get this turned around. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Gary_C

Quote from: SwampDonkey on August 10, 2013, 07:25:14 PM
That appraissal of the timber value is just a snapshot in time. Not even an insurance company would cover a projected value of a crop in the future. Or even insure a cruise against what is actually harvested. That appraissal, unless there is some kind of tax program involved to use the appraissal as a basis, is really only of any value when the asset is sold around the time frame of the appraissal. On it's own, it would be of little use for setting a value in the future.

I agree with that completely. Any apprasial done prior to your mother passing is of little value. The executor of her estate is required to establish value at the time of her passing and that is the only apprasial of value. Any apprasial done now is worth nothing. It is just throwing money away.

And if she is planning a sale prior to her death, the cost basis is not determined by an apprasial.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

ST Ranch

LT40G28 with mods,  Komatsu D37E crawler,
873 Bobcat with CWS log grapple,

bill m

The lawyer is working for you and your family. I would think you would have the final say as to who does this appraisal.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

Texas Ranger

There is one heck of a good forester in east central Georgia that can do the job.  Name is Daany something, runs around with a bunch of sawyers.  Just a thought, a threat, or something.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Claybraker

Just thought I'd give an update. Mom's new attorney has decided to be reasonable and do things my way. My siblings and I have discussed replacing her, and that's still an option, but for now we'll let her continue to rack up the billable hours. We are going to shorten her leash a bit.

Claybraker

Quote from: Texas Ranger on August 11, 2013, 10:02:43 PM
There is one heck of a good forester in east central Georgia that can do the job.  Name is Daany something, runs around with a bunch of sawyers.  Just a thought, a threat, or something.

Yep, Don, I wouldn't mind having Danny cruise it, but he's not gonna do it pro bono, and the closest place to put him up for the night is the Cloister, so it could get real expensive.

Since we're on the subject of food, I thought I'd add a video clip of one of my cousin's business venture in Nahunta, Ga.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rWfUwfXtHTc&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DrWfUwfXtHTc


timberlinetree

The people who have ripped me off the most have been lawyers!!!
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