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Tag wheels???

Started by gpigeon, August 02, 2013, 04:34:30 PM

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gpigeon

Howdy & G'day!
I placed this query in the "DIY" section of Sawmilling....that was obviously the wrong section for it! No replies!!!

I am thinking of using a lifting frame fitted to a tractor 3PL and a set of "tag wheels" under the tail end of logs to move the logs through steep sometimes slippery country.
Maybe you guys that have built/used these tag wheels can answer...do you have any problems tracking the rear end of the log? What stops the log running off track if the wheels are not aligned exactly with the centreline of the log?

The other option if to build a logging arch. But, for some strange reason these arches are never used in Australia. we tend to use what we call a "Bobtail" or "Bullwheel". These are a heavy steel frame with 2 wheels which only lit the front of the log off the ground. I am not keen on this idea because the tail end still drags on the ground leaving grooves in the soil.
Thanks.
Bill.

Scoopmobile LD4 loader
Trackmarshall Dozer
Inter "Acco" 6 WD truck
"lucas" clone with self propelled carriage
Kubota M7040SU tractor

beenthere

Tracking straight will depend on how straight you attach the tongue of the tag wheels to the log. If it doesn't track straight, then figure a way to readjust the tongue so that it does. Will maybe require some experimentation to get it right.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ljohnsaw

Do a little experimenting with some kids toys.  If the tag wheels are say 5° off of center, then the tail end of the log will ride 5° off to that side until the wheels are riding "true".  It's not going to run circles around you  ;)  Maybe on a very long log it will be 5 or 10' off to one side but you should be able to adjust it as you go.  I see it all the time on some 4x4 trucks that need some alignment after hitting a hard trail.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

amberwood

Bill. A lot of arches used down here behind dozers in the early logging, but have disappeared from use with skidders and excavators. The diminishing log size and increased machine power has also made the need to reduce ground contact and friction less important.
DTR
MS460 Magnum
MS250
DAF CF85-430
ASV RC-85 track loader

gpigeon

Quote from: amberwood on August 02, 2013, 07:42:21 PM
A lot of arches used down here behind dozers in the early logging
DTR

DTR/Amberwood,
Were these arches the long drawbar type like our American friends used or just a short arch on big wheels (often steel wheels) dragged around by a dozer? I will enquire further but I do not think that true arches were used up here in Northern NSW. Rather they went for what they called a Bobtail or Bullwheel which had no arch at all. It is interesting how different ideas / practices developed in different areas and especially whether one was better than the other.
Note that the American style arches lift the entire log clear of the ground!
I'm tending to initially opt for a 3PL lifting frame and trial a front truck axle as tag wheels. The front axle has a bent down main beam so that means the log will not have to be lifted very high to get the axle under it. I think I could adjust the steering by use of a turnbuckle attached to the existing steering arm.
Thanks to others for your input to date.
Cheers.
Bill
Scoopmobile LD4 loader
Trackmarshall Dozer
Inter "Acco" 6 WD truck
"lucas" clone with self propelled carriage
Kubota M7040SU tractor

amberwood

stubby drawbar with oversize, loader type wheels, typically using the dozer winch over the arch to gain the lift.
If you need to move the log a reasonable distance on an improved surface, or one that cannot be damaged then your idea will work, just not sure it is worth the effort for short pulls lifting both ends of the log and setting up the steer axle. One more steer axle set up as a dolly and you have a dog trailer/jinker good for the road.


DTR
MS460 Magnum
MS250
DAF CF85-430
ASV RC-85 track loader

bill m

I had a job harvesting some 38 ft. logs that they did not want skidded out and had to be carried. This is what I fabricated.

  

 
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

Ed_K

 I'll bet that work good for getting around tree's  smiley_thumbsup .
Ed K

gpigeon

Quote from: bill m on August 04, 2013, 07:50:49 AM
I had a job harvesting some 38 ft. logs that they did not want skidded out and had to be carried. This is what I fabricated.

  

 

That looks as if it would work but really more cost than what I was thinking. 2x hyd cyls plus all that hose......
I have to move the logs about a mile ++ through rocky slippery country so I am not keen on dragging the tail end on the ground all the way.
Scoopmobile LD4 loader
Trackmarshall Dozer
Inter "Acco" 6 WD truck
"lucas" clone with self propelled carriage
Kubota M7040SU tractor

redneck

very nice looks like it would work great!
208 timberjack 353 detroit, case 580 super K backhoe, homemade bandmill, 357xp, 372xpg

thecfarm

Bill,interesting. I like that.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

PineNut

I need one some time ago. This would not work in tight places but i moved tree length logs with it. It was made from a wrecked tow dolly. Not very visible here but the tongue is under the log and chained to the log. There is a chain at the rear of the log. There are also blocks near the wheels that keep the log from rolling. If I wanted one for use in tight places, it would not be this wide.



gpigeon

Pine Nut,
Thanks for the reply.
Your arrangement is very similar to what I had in mind.

Quote from: PineNut on August 04, 2013, 09:49:36 PM
This would not work in tight places
Is that because the rear wheels will cut the corner? And of course because of the wide track of the wheels!

[/quote] Not very visible here but the tongue is under the log and chained to the log. [/quote]

A couple of questions....

1. How long was the tongue? Looks maybe 4 ft.
2. Did you have any problems maneuvering the wheels under the log? With only one person or do you need an offsider?
3. Did the rear wheels run straight or tend to track off line. I see you used a load binder to fasten the tongue to the log. Did that work ok?

I was thinking of reversing the tongue (pointing to the rear) and having the wheels closer to the middle of the log. comments?

Thanks again.
Bill W.
Scoopmobile LD4 loader
Trackmarshall Dozer
Inter "Acco" 6 WD truck
"lucas" clone with self propelled carriage
Kubota M7040SU tractor

bill m

It was made all from stuff I had laying around the shop. The cylinders are from a snow plow and can be had new for less then $70 each. The wheels can not be at the end of the log if it has any length to it. It will not go around corners. I tried mine first without the cylinders and could not get the logs around any corners without doing a lot of damage to other trees. That's why I added the cylinders. You can't tell from the pictures but the end of the logs do not drag on the ground.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

PineNut

Sorry for the delay but I haven't been checking in too often. Some of the answers are:
1.   The tongue is the original tongue on the tow dolly, I guess about five feet long.
2.   To load the log, I pick up one end with a boom pole on the tractor and set it down on the dolly.
3.   The rear wheels run straight. I use two chain binders, one on the tongue and the other at the rear. It was necessary to have stops on the dolly to keep the log from rolling, even with the rear chain binder.

The wide track of the wheels makes it a little difficult in tight places. If I were building it for much use, I would reduce the track. I see no reason the tongue couldn't be toward the rear. That may make it easier to load. I have hauled 50-foot logs on this rig.

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