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LT40 Gas to Electric?

Started by wetdog, July 21, 2013, 01:28:23 PM

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wetdog

Has anyone ever changed their LT40 over from a gas engine with 12VDC controls over to electric motor and AC controls? If so, how did the modification go?

Bibbyman

Lots of folks have changed from engine to AC motor.  If you get a motor with same specs as installed on a Wood-Mizer for that model,  it's a fairly painless conversion.

I don't know anyone that has changed the controls from DV to AC.  Lots of problems, many may be insurmountable. 
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

wetdog

Quote from: Bibbyman on July 21, 2013, 01:39:50 PM
Lots of folks have changed from engine to AC motor.  If you get a motor with same specs as installed on a Wood-Mizer for that model,  it's a fairly painless conversion.

I don't know anyone that has changed the controls from DV to AC.  Lots of problems, many may be insurmountable.
Do they still use a battery with a charger for the DC voltage or some kind of converter?

Dave Shepard

AC mills typically have an alternator to charge the battery. I'm not sure about the LT70 AC that uses AC drive and up/down motors.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Bibbyman

Any I've seen use the same alternator as engine.   The AC mills are identical to engine models.  Just replace engine with motor. Replace fuel tank with box with starter switches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Jx3bekr1M&feature=youtube_gdata_player

About one minute into this video you can clearly see the alternator mounted beside the motor.   

DC controls,  good or bad, are already there and supported by diagrams and parts from Wood-Mizer. Rip them out and you're on your own.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Kansas

The LT 70 AC does not use a battery. Not an electrician, but I think trying to convert DC to AC would be a nightmare. Also bear in mind this. Woodmizer's electric motors are proprietary. I think I would consider just going with a standard 25 horse motor, and make your own mounting.

Bibbyman

Quote from: Kansas on July 21, 2013, 04:25:36 PM
The LT 70 AC does not use a battery. Not an electrician, but I think trying to convert DC to AC would be a nightmare. Also bear in mind this. Woodmizer's electric motors are proprietary. I think I would consider just going with a standard 25 horse motor, and make your own mounting.

While they say AC,  I bet a lot of the controls, small motors are DC. Probably have some kind of converter to power them.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

ElectricAl

Wetdog,

Back in 1996 we converted our 1993 LT40HDG24 to an E15 using a conversion kit provided by Wood-Mizer.

The conversion went well other than we had to change the pulley diameter on the electric motor.
The Motor turned at 3450 rpm and the gas engine turned at 3600.
The WM kit was set up to use the gas engine pulley, thus the blade speed was about 5% too slow.

As stated earlier don't change the 12 volt up/down and Fwd/Rev motors. Just use the Alt that is on the machine.

If you want actual AC drive motors for up/down and Fwd/Rev plan on emptying you wallet for Frequency Drive Inverters.
You'll need an Inverter for each motor.


What year saw are you working with ?


ElectricAl
Linda and I custom saw NHLA Grade Lumber, do retail sales, and provide Kiln Services full time.

wetdog

ElectricAl,
I have one same as yours, '93 LT40HD24. I know a new engine will be in my future and I was thinking of going stationary anyway. Do you find the electric cheaper to run and less maintenance?
Wetdog

ElectricAl

Wetdog,



When we converted from Gas to Electric, gas was 99 cents.
Our fuel bill was $450 a month. After the conversion our power bill went up $50.

Our power rate has gone from .06 to .12 a Kilowatt over the years,
so we would be paying $100 now.
With gas, we'd be out of business, oh I mean $1575.

On top of the Fuel cost we changed Oil and Filter every 50 hours.

Plus the Gas engine bogged down while sawing. The Electric pulls a steady RPM.

Electric is also quieter and less stinky.

Now keep in mind there is some maintenance required with the Electric Motor.

Bibbyman is always ready to explain his extensive Electric Motor Maintenance Program.

# 1  Two pumps of grease once a year.
# 2   Remembering to do step # 1   


ElectricAl
Linda and I custom saw NHLA Grade Lumber, do retail sales, and provide Kiln Services full time.

wetdog

ElectricAl,
Does your mill still have the blade disconnect lever or is the blade live whenever the motor is turning?

Dave Shepard

I am in the process of reversing what you are doing. I'm putting a gas on a '92 LT40E15. The only thing that really changes is the engine. Rig up an alternator and away you go. The Wye-Delta soft start on the factory mill uses 12v DC. If you want to have keyed start off the panel, you will have to take that into consideration. If not, then put a starter on the fuel tray. What are you going to use for power? Do you have three-phase, genset or phase converter? What size motor are you going to use? That mill would have originally had a 15 HP with a 215T NEMA frame. You can buy all the parts, suck as mounting plate, special sheave, belts etc., right from Wood Mizer to mount that motor. The voltages are weird on the WM motor, but a standard 15HP with a 215T frame should bolt right on. I'm not sure if a 25HP would be the right motor for that mill. I believe member Faron has a 20HP electric on the same vintage mill.

Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Al_Smith

The conversion factor is normally taken as 1HP electric equals 2 gas or diesel .I know a zillion people will argue that fact but it's true .

The LT 70 shows 55 HP diesel while the electric is 25 .I rest my case . ;)

Dave Shepard

WM claims they can pull 70 HP out of that 25HP electric for short periods. :-\ Not sure what that's all about. I know the 15HP electric on the '92 was easily as powerful as the 24HP Onan on the identical '93 mill.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

bandmiller2

I don't own a WM, my mill is of my own manufacture.Origanally I used a two cylinder Wisconsin baler engine aprox. 15/16 hp. it did the job but no spare power.Replaced it with a three phase baldor 15 hp motor plenty of power to turn the band and hydraulic pump.For me it was a direct replacement even used the same belts.Only thing I had to buy was a used motor starter.I retained the belt idler type clutch so the motor starts no load which reduces the startup load.As stated I wouldn't mess with the 12v controls but have a good sized battery and 120v charger hooked up.Much more economical to run than gas or diesel. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

ElectricAl

Wetdog,

Our 1993 used the same manual clutch and band brake system for the Gas or Electric.
The only change was the Power Plant. Mechanically everything else was the same.
We even used the key switch to start and stop the motor.

Al_Smith is right about the HP . There is a big difference between the Onan 24 and the Baldor 15.

Electric Motors don't bog down, they just pull more Amps until it stalls.
Linda and I custom saw NHLA Grade Lumber, do retail sales, and provide Kiln Services full time.

Bibbyman

A few words about motors. 

Just because the nameplate says a horsepower doesn't mean it's equal to the motor next to it with the same horsepower rating.   Motors are designed for specific applications.  A motor designed for a constant load, like turning a fan, will be designated different from one that starts and stops. One that starts under load, like for a concrete mixer,  will be designed different than one that starts under no load and then load is applied.  Wood-Mizer motors are designed to start under no load and then endure temporary heavy load.  That's why they can pull so much more horsepower than the nameplate says.

Then there is environmental considerations.  Some motors are designed to run in a clean, dry environment.  Others in an exposed to weather environment.  Then others are closed and built to work in a harsh environment.

If you go with a motor from Wood-Mizer or one from a Wood-Mizer mill, then you won't have to worry.  They have it figured out. 

I had a customer that had a PHD in industrial engineering look at the plate on our Super. His comment was that it was way over designed.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

wetdog

Quote from: Dave Shepard on July 21, 2013, 08:13:28 PM
I am in the process of reversing what you are doing. I'm putting a gas on a '92 LT40E15. The only thing that really changes is the engine. Rig up an alternator and away you go. The Wye-Delta soft start on the factory mill uses 12v DC. If you want to have keyed start off the panel, you will have to take that into consideration. If not, then put a starter on the fuel tray. What are you going to use for power? Do you have three-phase, genset or phase converter? What size motor are you going to use? That mill would have originally had a 15 HP with a 215T NEMA frame. You can buy all the parts, suck as mounting plate, special sheave, belts etc., right from Wood Mizer to mount that motor. The voltages are weird on the WM motor, but a standard 15HP with a 215T frame should bolt right on. I'm not sure if a 25HP would be the right motor for that mill. I believe member Faron has a 20HP electric on the same vintage mill.
I would most likely use a phase converter with the 15hp motor. What do you mean when you say the WM motor votages are weird, is in not a typical 240/480 three phase?

Bibbyman

Wood-Mizer motors are standard voltages.  If you have three phase service,  then you'll jest need a fused disconnect switch to protect it.

Many of us only have single phase service.  In that case, we normally use a rotary phase converter.   Single phase goes in, three phase comes out. 

Then there are variable frequency drives.  They convert single phase to three phase but do it in a solid state.  The variable frequency drive has some real advantages.

ElectricAl runs his new LT50HDE25 Super on a variable frequency drive.  He can tell us more.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

ElectricAl

Oh ya, I can tell you more.

When you spend $40k on a new mill and it does not start because the Power Company does not have enough hamsters on the wheel you need to be creative.

For us the best option was a Variable Speed Frequency Drive.

In real simple terms it's a box of magic.

220 volt AC single phase is all it needs.

The Motor spools up in 7 seconds, and stops in 10 seconds.
Does not dim the lights or pith off the neighbors with brown outs.

Our Drive cost + - $8000  for the 25 hp motor.

A Drive for a 15 hp would cost less.

Linda and I custom saw NHLA Grade Lumber, do retail sales, and provide Kiln Services full time.

bandmiller2

Electric Al and cornfield Al,$8000 is a lot of quid.Would it work to have two identicle 7 1/2 hp single phase motors belted  to the band.??Start one then the outher to lower start load.Seems like it would be cheaper and simpler than the majic box.With a rotary three phase converter what would be the losses to get 15hp to the band.?? Thanks guys. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Dave Shepard

By weird voltages I meant it was designed to run in other countries. It will run on US low and high voltage, but also on other voltages and hertz. Below is the nameplate from a factory '92 WoodMizer 15hp electric.



 
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

ladylake


I like Frank's idea of 2   7-1/2  or 10 hp single phase motors, the only downside would be weight which I'd guess less that a bigger diesel.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Bibbyman

Quote from: ladylake on July 22, 2013, 03:45:47 PM

I like Frank's idea of 2   7-1/2  or 10 hp single phase motors, the only downside would be weight which I'd guess less that a bigger diesel.   Steve

But his 93 LT40 wasn't designed for that much weight on the head assembly.   Also, I don't think single phase motors are as efficient as 3ph.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

ladylake


I looked up the weight, a 10 hp single phase is 140#, so that would be 280 or a little less than a 3 cylinder diesel.  Also I'm not sure but don't 3 phase motors   only put out around 2/3 of there rated hp with a phase converter?
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

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