iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Big Box Lumber question.

Started by Ruffneck, July 20, 2013, 04:56:54 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ruffneck

This was brought up once again by a co-worker of mine the other day but it started about the time I bought my Wood-Mizer.
Somehow the topic of the lumber sold at the big box stores came up. The first time it did, I was saying that I was pretty sure that it was all kiln dried that they sold, we were talking framing lumber specifically. I then went to a local store to learn myself a little bit more about what was being sold there and the prices. It was a good introduction for a greenhorn I thought.  ;D
About a month ago I was reading a broacher from WM on the stamping of lumber and cam away with an even better understanding of what I was looking at on the stamps. My next trip to the store I take this newly learned knowledge to the lumber isle and look at all the stamps of the lumber.  Every 2x board I looked at had the KD mark on it. In fact, the only thing I found that was green were the 4x6s and they were stamped green.
The question I have is, do they sell green framing lumber at these big box stores? My thought process now is there is no way they could. That lumber would be coming off those stacks moldy as can be. He is adamant that they are green at his local store.
If that in fact could be, I will let him know. If not, I will have to tell him we are going to have to agree to disagree on the whole issue.
He's the kind of guy that wouldn't admit he was wrong on anything. What makes it more fun is the fact he's my supervisor.  ::)
He thinks it's green because it's heavy weight. I just think to myself, you want to feel heavy lumber, come stack it for a day straight off my mill :D
I honestly can't believe he brought it up again after so long. It shouldn't have surprised me, he is one of those kind of people :D :D :D
If I'm mistaken on the subject I will let him know. That's the kind of guy I am.

Ljohnsaw

Wood I've purchased in the past at HD in 2x4 and 2x6 in full lengths (8,10,12,16') were all very wet to the touch and if it had been there a week or two (lower in the stack) it had black mold on it.  You often need a face mask to protect yourself from the water spray when you start nailing!  :D :D  No way this was kiln dried!  They do sell (out west here) KD hemlock studs - extremely light weight, very dry and tend to split.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Ruffneck

Is it stamped green or kiln dried?

beenthere

Dimension lumber was (not sure about nowadays) sold green on the west coast for years, long after kiln dry lumber was the norm in the more eastern parts of this country. Probably in the mid eighty's did the selling of green dimension lumber change. With the coastal climate, seemed they could handle marketing and building with green lumber with no major problems. Even manufactured trusses were made of green material. So I would expect to see a green grade stamp floating around.

I wouldn't push the argument of there being green as well as kiln dried lumber sold on the west coast. Both are likely right. ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ianab

They might very well be selling it, but I can't see it being a very good idea. Flat stacked green wood (especially pine) is just asking for a mushroom farm to start growing.  ???
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Ron Wenrich

I've heard that this stuff is sold as skin dried.  It goes into a kiln for 48 hrs, and what dries, dries.  What don't, don't.  That makes sense, as its dried on the surface, but will juice up when you drive a nail.  I think the stamp on that is SKD or just SD.

I don't think the treated material is kiln dried.  I always thought that went in wet, and the preservative replaced the water.  This lumber also looks green.  Might be what they're talking about.

The other thing that happens is that a batch of lumber is kiln dried, then allowed to sit out in the rain before its brought inside. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Ruffneck

I won't argue this point with him. All I've ever mentioned was what I had seen first hand on the shelves.
I have nailed many boards in my time that felt heavier than normal and shot water back into my face too ;D
I find it perplexing though. I read a book a few years back, "Green Lumber Construction". It described how to build and incorporated the shrinkage that will occur after it dries. It was rough-cut green lumber though.
How are these houses that are being built keeping straight walls in them. I have heard of the issues with the mold being in these newer homes. As fast as they put them up, and if it's green lumber, how could anyone be surprised by that? :D
If there are both kind out there, we're both right on this. :) I'm just going to tell him that my HD is better than his because its' lumber is KD and his is green :D :D :D

How does a wall look if you mix KD and green together? The green will shrink and the KD stays the same?
Why build with green if you can build with KD at the same price? Oh, it was all Douglass Fir.

thecfarm

We use to call that "dry" lumber Pond Dried.  :D
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Brucer

For softwood lumber, Kiln Dried (KD) means the wood was dried to 19% moisture content. Wood with moisture content over 20% can decay, so the point is to dry the wood to just below that. There is no incentive for the manufacturer's to dry it any further. At 19% the wood has shrunk about 45% of the total shrinkage you'd expect for an indoor application.

There is a second level of drying, KD15, where the wood is dried to 15% moisture content. Harder to find and pricier.


Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

florida

I've been a builder on the east coast for nearly 40 years now and have never seen a stick of green framing lumber sold through a big box or a lumber company. The pressure treated lumber you see is treated green and usually sold the same way. Some PT lumber is kiln dried and will be marked with a KD stamp.
General contractor and carpenter for 50 years.
Retired now!

JohnM

This is purely a guess but I'm willing to bet he's talking about pressure treated lumber.  That stuff is heavy and wet right out the door (around here at least).  Wondering if you're both comparing apples to apples. ???  Just a thought.

JM
Lucas 830 w/ slabber; Kubota L3710; Wallenstein logging winch; Split-fire splitter; Stihl 036; Jonsered 2150

WDH

At least in the East, all treated lumber (southern yellow pine) is initially kiln dried to KD19 or 19% before being put into the treatment cylinders.  Then, the chemical is pumped in and a vacuum is drawn so that the wood will take up the chemical.  Then, it is shipped to the Box stores without additional drying.  However, I understand that you can buy treated lumber that has been dried after treating, but I have never seen any around here. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Magicman

Nor here either.  Treated lumber is wet when it arrives at the lumber yard.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

WH_Conley

I worked building a Roller Coaster one time. A small portion of the lumber came in dry. The sticker was KDAT. I think that is what it said, been a few years back.
Bill

mesquite buckeye

In Tucson Home Depot stores , most of the dimension lumber is stamped S-DRY, and is quite wet. If you don't use it pretty quick, it tends to pretzel up in our normally dry air.  8)
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Kansas

I know treated lumber shrinks a bunch. I know if you go into a box store, you see the top of the piles all twisted up. I know when I had my house built, the builders didn't even ask me. They went to the local lumber yard and paid a bit more, but got better quality lumber, that seemed to be dry. I read somewhere what the actual cost of structural lumber is on a house. It isn't that high.

beenthere

Quotemost of the dimension lumber is stamped S-DRY, and is quite wet. If you don't use it pretty quick, it tends to pretzel up in our normally dry air.

Yup, big difference when 19% and drying down to maybe 10%.

I've found that after I buy my dimension lumber, or even common boards for that matter, that I bring them home and sticker them right away. That gives equal drying on both faces of each piece which goes a long way to keeping them straight. If not this way, then at least turning the top boards regularly as they curl up when drying.

As for the treated lumber, I've often thought it would pay the lumber yards to re-stack and sticker their treated wood so it can air dry more evenly.  As it is, customers come in, toss off the crooked top pieces to get the straight, but wet, lower pieces. Then the next customer comes in and does the same thing. Ending up with a lot of loss in crooked lumber, but they would have to weigh that loss against the labor to re-stack on stickers.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Magicman

That plus the ease of transporting bundled flat stacked lumber vs possibly unstable stickered stacks.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

beenthere

Right, have to transport without stickers.  Just talking dead time and sitting with the top layer or two drying one face.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Delawhere Jack

Quote from: WH_Conley on July 23, 2013, 07:22:39 AM
I worked building a Roller Coaster one time. A small portion of the lumber came in dry. The sticker was KDAT. I think that is what it said, been a few years back.

KD after treatment. Mostly only done for deck railing, balusters or premium decking.

tyb525

"Wet" lumber can cause problems with nail/screw popping once the drywall is up, I have seen it myself in new tract houses. Whether it's wet from the kiln or it gets rained on at some point I don't know.

It's interesting when someone shows you their brand new expensive house, and all I can see are nail pops that most people wouldn't notice (I can't help but notice flaws in construction, same with lumber and wood in general). Just nod your head and smile as they talk about the house they probably got ripped off on.

I have seen a 10' deck board shrink lengthwise about an inch after being screwed down and drying for a week. I had to take it off and adjust it so it didn't look so funny, luckily I had extra length under the trim piece up against the house.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

Ianab

Probably only kiln dried to 19%.

A good builder knows this. They will put up the framing, then work on other stuff like the roof, exterior cladding and joinery for a few weeks. In that time the framing will dry down to a more sensible level, and once they start the interior finishing it should be close to dry and done most of it's moving.

But I can imagine in a "mass produced" house that a larger crew completes the whole build in few days, and no one checks the moisture level as they go.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

ancjr

I buy from a local warehouse that keeps all material in the dry.  They have spruce out of canada that is good enough to use for trim/finish work.  It's about 15% premium over the retail chains, and well worth it to me because of the lack of culls and no need to wait for it to dry.

Stacks of lumber in the local big box stores have standing water trapped inside, likely from being stored out back in the rain before being brought in.

drobertson

I'm pretty sure they will not sell "green" sawn lumber, not sure how the treated lumber worked into the equation, but we all know this stuff is soaking wet, I have sold to the local lumber yard on a special request a few times, stock they did not carry, it sounds like your super is confusing wet wood with actual green wood, not much different that having dried cured camp wood that gets rained on, one trip someone said " this wood is too green" well, it was wet, everything in camp was, but not green,  david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Thank You Sponsors!