big fire in lac megantic

[snowstorm]

the news story i read said the train was parked. when somehow it moved and derailed. it was hauling crude oil. from the pictures the fire burned a lot of the town

[beenthere]

Lac Megantic is a Canada town.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23215855

[Fraxinus]

I've been to Lac Megantic many times.  It's a nice little town.  What a horrible thing to have happen.

[Brucer]

The train was parked. Cars became separated from the engine and ran down a hill into the centre of town, where they derailed.

In a picture of the aftermath I count approximately 42 tank cars (hard to tell for sure). Two cars are still upright and more or less in line with the rails. The other 40 are burnt out and stacked up side by side across the rails.

There's a picture take just as one of the explosions occurred -- it's a huge mushroom-shaped fireball that towers over the town. The centre of town around the site was leveled.

Five confirmed dead so far, and approximately 40 missing. I fear the death toll will rise. Fortunately it happened at night.

[Warbird]

Prayers for those who've lost loves ones and for the cleanup/rebuilding that must occur.

[Ken]

The latest reports are that 13 have lost their lives and up to 50 are still missing.  The train was hauling crude from North Dakota and was heading to a refinery here in NB.  Reports are that the train was stopped on the tracks as the engineer had to rest and for some reason the unmanned trains brakes failed and the train rolled off on its own.   The resulting explosions and fires have destroyed the center of Lac Megantic.

[snowstorm]

news said the cars rolled 7 miles by themself with out the engine

[sawguy21]

The reports are conflicting. Last we heard there had been an earlier fire on a locomotive which was extinguished. When the fire crew returned to check on it the train was gone, there is now speculation that one of the earlier fire fighters may have inadvertently released the brakes.

[Ianab]

From what I've been reading there was a fire in one of the engines of a train that was parked up.

Now apparently rail brakes are different to truck / trailer systems. They don't fail "safe". They are held ON by compressed air in the brake system. So a line of wagons can be braked and held stationary, by air in the system, for changing over an engine etc. But over any period of time the air bleeds out of the system, and the brakes release. The train was apparently parked and had an auxiliary engine running to provide that compressed air, and mechanical brakes set on the locomotive's and probably some wagons

Now the other thought was that if you had a burning locomotive coupled to a train of full oil tanks, it might seem like a good idea to uncouple them? The air in the system holds the wagons stationary, for a while....

So you can see how someone could mess up, not re-couple the train to an engine, or set the mechanical brakes, and the train just stealthed off into the night after everyone had left.  :-\

[Brucer]

EDIT: See updates in red.

Putting together official comments made by the RR company chairman and the fire chief in Nantes, the story seems to be this:

The engineer of the train had reached his limit for operating hours and stopped in Nantes, Quebec, which is 11 km away from Lac Megantic and uphill all the way. The train was actually stopped on the grade. The engineer set the brakes and left one engine running to maintain air pressure in the braking system. Then he went to a local hotel. Another crew was supposed to come and take over the train several hours later.

Local residents notice a locomotive on fire and called the local fire department. Fire officials responded, discovered the fire was caused by leaking fuel feeding the diesel engine, and shut the engine down per standard procedures. They then extinguished the fire, notified the RR dispatcher, and were told by a RR maintenance worker that the fire was safely out and they could leave.

Within half an hour, a witness at a local campground reported hearing a train moving on the tracks but could see no lights, which he thought was pretty strange.

The train (with engines attached) ran backward down the hill into Lac Megantic, where it derailed. The engines had become separated just outside town and were found stationary on the tracks. The engines rolled through town at extremely high speed with the train attached, but the cars jumped the tracks and separated from the engines. The engines ran through town and carried on out the other side where they eventually coasted to a stop on level ground. There were 72 cars carrying light crude oil and one other car. Reports say that thirteen cars remained upright and on the rails, and were pulled clear of the disaster area. Pictures show 2 cars upright but off the rails, which leaves 57 or 58 cars piled up (where I only counted 40 in the aerial photos).

The RR chairman said the engineer had set the hand brakes as well as the air brakes, but the hand brakes would not be enough to hold the train back. He also criticized the fire department for not tracking down the engineer and letting him know about the fire and shutting down the engine. I say BS to that.

The following is speculation on my part. If hand brakes had been set on all the cars, the train probably wouldn't have run away, and certainly wouldn't have reached the speed it did. I suspect the engineer set the hand brakes on the engines and that was all (consistent with the cars separating from the engines). The fire chief had no way of knowing the implications of shutting down the engines; unless the engineer left a note saying where he had gone, the fire chief had no way of knowing where he was. If anyone should have tracked down the engineer, it was the dispatcher. And why leave only one engine running if that was all that was holding the train back?

I'm not feeling particularly sympathetic to the railroad at this point (in case you hadn't noticed).

[John_Haylow]

What a tragedy, those poor families. I can't believe that the railroad would leave a train sitting and running unattended, especially one loaded with hazardous cargo. I think the ceo should be looking at ways to ensure that accidents like this don't happen. How hard can it be to coordinate shift changes or have someone be there to secure the train between crews? It sounds like the firefighters did their part and contacted the railroad and someone there dropped the ball.
John

[trainwreck]

. I can't believe that the railroad would leave a train sitting and running unattended, especially one loaded with hazardous cargo.

if you knew how many hours trains sit with no one on them with cargo far more hazardous than this on them you would be shocked.   and you would be surprised at the amount of hazardous cargo the railroad moves everyday.   
On a scale of 1-10   10 being the most hazardous thing the railroad moves  this crude oil might be at level 3.

And for the leaving them running,   sometimes they sit for days with no crew on board,with the motors running.

[tyb525]

There is no way the cars would detach from the engines by themselves, unless someone released the couplers, which would involve foul play/vandalism.

The engineer should have set more hand brakes and installed some railroad wheel chocks.

And yes engines do run for hours unattended, to avoid having to restart them, but it's irresponsible to assume those engine will run for hours without problems at some point or another.

[Brucer]

Tyb: I updated my previous post with more accurate information on the location of the engines. They were at the front of the train as it went through town at a very high rate of speed. At some point the leading cars derailed and became separated from the engines.

Quebec provincial police Insp. Michel Forget said a criminal investigation is now underway ...
Forget didn't provide much information on why a criminal investigation was warranted, but did say that investigators had "discovered elements" that supported such a probe.

He didn't think terrorism was a factor. He did mention the possibility of criminal negligence.

[Warbird]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23260199

They've upped the possible number of dead to 60 but have warned positive ID of some of the missing may never happen because they may have been incinerated.  :(   The blame game ensues.

God bless those who lost loved ones, and those who have to clean up the grizzly aftermath.

[thecfarm]

I finally caught the news. that is so sad. the pictures just left me with nothing to say. The small town about 20 minutes from me,sent a special fire truck to help out. I thought that was a very nice way to help in thier time of need.

[Brucer]

After the first couple of days the number of missing, feared dead has been fluctuating between 40 and 60. It seems, however, that the variation is because of misunderstandings about the way the numbers are being reported. Because identification is so difficult, the authorities were reporting the number of bodies found, and then the total number of missing. Reporters would add these numbers together, or subtract them, which led to a lot of confusion.

As of now ... 50 people presumed killed, 20 bodies found, one body identified.

[Brucer]

I was doing a little research on shipping crude oil by rail. The oil in this particular shipment was from the Bakken shale formation, which is a light crude. It has the same flammability rating as gasoline.

The nature of the Bakken formation is that the life of a well is quite short. Drill a well, exploit it, move a short distance, and start over again. This makes it uneconomical to put in a pipeline network, so rail is the preferred means of transfer.

The number of oil shipments by rail has more than doubled in the last 3 years in Canada. It's expected to increase at a much faster rate. Rail companies are scrambling to find tank cars to fill the need. North American railroads have placed orders for 30,000 tank cars specifically designed to carry oil.

The tank cars in the Lac Megantic tragedy are general purpose cars that were identified as being to light for safely transporting oil. Modifications have been designed to make them safer, but railroad companies have lobbied against making the upgrades mandatory.

[beenthere]

Something as simple as securing the train would have helped save this town and its people in this situation, i.e. not leaving an engine run unattended while the engineer goes to someplace to sleep.
Then again, in the old day, sleep would have likely been on the train, and/or the engineer put in longer hours but at least stayed with his train.

I recall as a young kid (19), having to go fetch a rail car of anhydrous ammonia that was parked on a siding with a manual brake left on and a chock on the rail. It was downhill to our tank siding so would kick out the chock, jump up and turn the brake wheel loose. Then jump down and use a big wedge-like thing on a long wood handle to get the tank car rolling. Jump back on and ride the brake to let the tank car roll onto the siding. Would hook up the hoses and open a valve for the load to be pumped into our big tank. No training, just go figure it out and get it done.

[simong]

The small town about 20 minutes from me,sent a special fire truck to help out. I thought that was a very nice way to help in thier time of need.

Bonjour,
It's nice to see guys across the border sent help.  We should continue teaming to force a general inspection of this company tracks, afterall, they travel through Maine as well as Quebec and New Brunswick.  I live in West-Bolton in Quebec, and I have to cross their tracks three times to get home.  I'm very concerned.

[Mooseherder]

Pretty dramatic footage of the fire recorded by a resident.
At the end of it he has footage from higher ground with the town below.


http://www.radio-canada.ca/nouvelles/societe/2013/07/09/003-video-images-francais-temoin-lac-megantic.shtml

[snowstorm]

there was a peice in the newspaper...franklin county sends mutual aid to canada. crews from strong,  east dixfield, chesterville, farmington, phillips, rangeley, newvineyard, and eustis all responded. eustis and rangeley would be the closest but must be at least 40 to 50 miles

[Brucer]

In fact, those seven municipalities sent fire crews early on the morning of the disaster. There are now firefighters from 60 municipalities from Canada and the US helping with cleanup and recovery.

The working conditions are brutal. The weather is extremely hot and humid. The remains of the tank cars and building debris are still hot and radiating heat. Temperatures in some places are over 50 degrees (122 °F). The soil is soaked with volatile hydrocarbons, including benzene, so firefighters often have to wear breathing apparatus. They have to work in 15 minute shifts.

As of now 38 bodies have been recovered, 17 of which have been identified. 12 people remain missing and are presumed dead.

[snowstorm]

today the railroad filed bankruptcy. yesterday they said they wouldnt haul any more oil.

[Fraxinus]

Something as simple as securing the train would have helped save this town and its people in this situation, i.e. not leaving an engine run unattended while the engineer goes to someplace to sleep.

The first ever train trip we took was from Levis to Gaspe.  While we were in Gaspe for 2 or 3 days, the engine sat idling in the yard.

[SwampDonkey]

Another oil train fireball, this one in North Dakota. Casselton evacuated.

North Dakota Derailment

[goose63]

Pics on the news this morning big fire ball I live 65 miles south of Casselton the guys working on the fire have35 below wind chills   

[turnkey]

Air brakes on trains are supposed to be fail safe.  No air pressure, brakes lock up.  That is why an engine will sit there awhile after connecting up to a string.  It has to pump up the air pressure to all cars.  Brakes are supposed to lock up if any hose on the train breaks.

Google "Westinghouse air brake"

Ooops.  Reservoirs in cars can keep the brakes from locking up.

Harry K

[snowstorm]

Air brakes on trains are supposed to be fail safe.  No air pressure, brakes lock up.  That is why an engine will sit there awhile after connecting up to a string.  It has to pump up the air pressure to all cars.  Brakes are supposed to lock up if any hose on the train breaks.

Google "Westinghouse air brake"

Ooops.  Reservoirs in cars can keep the brakes from locking up.

Harry K

trucks with air brakes use a spring in the maxi can that is the parking brake. and if the air is lost they come on. it is spring applied and air released  with another diafraim for the service brakes. from what i found on air brakes on a train they are air applied only. each car has a tank but that can leak down after a while. thats one reason the engine is always running to keep the air psi up and the air dry running thru an air dryer

[SPIKER]

I think there is a mechanical hand crank that disengages them like the bolts on semi brakes...

Mark

[Brucer]

Briefly ...

The air from the engine is used to charge an air reservoir on each car. The air in the reservoir applies the brakes when needed.

Air pressure is applied from the engine to release the brakes by counteracting the air pressure from the reservoir.

When the engineer wants to apply the brakes, she/he operates a valve that vents some of the air from the engine system. The air pressure falls below that in the car reservoirs and the brakes are applied.

If a car separates from the rest of the train, there is no longer any air pressure from the engine to keep the brakes released. The air in the car reservoir applies the brakes.

This system has worked well for close to a century and a half ... if all the components are properly maintained. Even a slow leak in a reservoir on a car will eventually cause the brakes to ease off.

Hand brakes on each car can be applied to hold the car even if the reservoir air bleeds off. However, the hand brakes won't give maximum protection unless they are applied when the reservoir is already empty. This is why most railroads specify how many hand brakes need to be applied on a certain grade when the train is left for long periods of time.

I did some reading after the disaster in Quebec and it doesn't appear that there is any actual research on how many brakes to set :.

[turnkey]

Briefly ...

The air from the engine is used to charge an air reservoir on each car. The air in the reservoir applies the brakes when needed.

Air pressure is applied from the engine to release the brakes by counteracting the air pressure from the reservoir.

When the engineer wants to apply the brakes, she/he operates a valve that vents some of the air from the engine system. The air pressure falls below that in the car reservoirs and the brakes are applied.

If a car separates from the rest of the train, there is no longer any air pressure from the engine to keep the brakes released. The air in the car reservoir applies the brakes.

This system has worked well for close to a century and a half ... if all the components are properly maintained. Even a slow leak in a reservoir on a car will eventually cause the brakes to ease off.

Hand brakes on each car can be applied to hold the car even if the reservoir air bleeds off. However, the hand brakes won't give maximum protection unless they are applied when the reservoir is already empty. This is why most railroads specify how many hand brakes need to be applied on a certain grade when the train is left for long periods of time.

I did some reading after the disaster in Quebec and it doesn't appear that there is any actual research on how many brakes to set :.

Thanks for that explanation. .  Much clearer than any source I found. After I posted, I knew I was wrong but couldn't find a way to cancel it

Harry K

[SwampDonkey]

Edit button above the IP number of the post or Modify at the top. Both pencil on paper icons.

[Brucer]

I've been interested in trains since I was a little kid. The mechanical linkages for applying multiple brakes evenly are pretty impressive.

A report released today says that Bakken crude has a much lower flash point than other types of crude. That's the oil that was involved in both the derailments mentioned in this thread.

Another interesting statistic ... 4 years ago there were 10,000 railcars assigned to transporting crude oil in the US. This year it was 400,000 (and growing).

[SwampDonkey]

All the more reason for oil pipelines. They'll get built eventually after the government spends billions on cleanup costs, because it always falls on government.

[Brucer]

Most of the major pipelines in Canada are quite old. They haven't been inspected or maintained properly. Safety shutoff equipment required by the government has only been installed on a fraction of the lines. Industry's excuse for the delay? Government inspectors weren't concentrating on that particular equipment so the pipeline owners didn't bother installing it.

DanGed if you do and Danged if you don't.

[Warbird]

Edit button above the IP number of the post or Modify at the top. Both pencil on paper icons.

???  Did you mean to post this here?

[SwampDonkey]

Last couple of lines in post # 31. The fella couldn't figure out post editing. ;)

[turnkey]

Last couple of lines in post # 31. The fella couldn't figure out post editing. ;)

I tried the "modify" when I posted but I didn't see anything on that page that allows a cancel.

as for "Edit button above the IP number of the post" I'm at a loss.  Where do I find that?

Harry K

[SwampDonkey]

There will be a string of numbers below the icon on your screen that we can't see. Those are your IP numbers.

[turnkey]

There will be a string of numbers below the icon on your screen that we can't see. Those are your IP numbers.

Thanks.  I thought I had checked every button on there.  Didn't even see that one.

Harry K

[SwampDonkey]

Another oil train fireball close to home this time, 16 cars - 4 propane, 4 crude, one engine at the rear. Near Plaster Rock, NB. Hazardous goods responders and officials have to come in from Quebec. Firefighters on scene are letting it burn out. Evacuation of 2 km radius. Sounds like it's not extremely serious this time.