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Inconsistent cuts with TK setworks

Started by Ronnie, July 04, 2013, 02:43:19 AM

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Ronnie

I have been sawing a lot of siding lately and it will vary in thickness by a 1/16 or an 1/8. I will be sawing through and through and then slap the boards up and have several out of the cant that are different thickness. It's my sawmill shed so iam not so concerned, but will be when I open the mill business up after the shed is built. I don't feel comfortable with the inconsistency.
TK2000, JD5075, Stihl 660,270,170.

xlogger

Ronnie, I was having some of the same trouble as you with my 2000. I called TK and they sent me a small piece to go into your down flow to slow the hyd flow and that help alot. Ricky
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

ladylake

 Also make sure the plastic blocks that ride on the post are not too tight, any binding will throw the setworks off. You can try wiping some atf on the posts, if that helps the blocks are too tight.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

redbeard

The maintenance on my 2006 set works is ( keep sprocket tips clean with brass brush )  make sure counter is clean and is credit card thickness away from teeth and centered. Chain has about 3/4" defection not to tight. Keep jack screws clean and  lubed with lithium grease. Not sure if 2000 has same mechanics. 1/8" variation is not right.
Whidbey Woodworks and Custom Milling  2019 Cooks AC 3662T High production band mill and a Hud-son 60 Diesel wide cut bandmill  JD 2240 50hp Tractor with 145 loader IR 1044 all terrain fork lift  Cooks sharp

Larry

A few things to try.

I put in the flow restrictor orifice some time ago.  At first I thought it made a difference but now I don't think there was any change.

Putting a lubricate on the vertical posts as suggested may help.  I first used ATF.  TK suggested silicone garage door spray would work well as it is a dry lubricant.  It worked about the same as ATF.  When the can was used up I tried using paraffin.  I like paraffin the best.  Also use it on the clamp horizontal rail.

Call TK and get the latest setwork parameters.  The delay setting has changed several times since I got my mill.

The setworks checks for drop errors each drop.  I was using the down button and the up lever ::) because it is faster.  I was told this defeats the setworks error detection.  Always use the up and down buttons.

This is my understanding of how the setworks operates from talking with TK.  Say you want 1" drops.  The brain of the setworks figures out it has to open the hydraulic valve 2.1 seconds to get a 1" drop.  If the carriage drops 1-1/16" the setwork error detection tells the brain it has to shorten the time the valve is open.  The brain on the next drop, only leaves the valve open 1.8 seconds and the drop is a perfect 1".  That time can vary throughout the day as the viscosity of the hydraulic oil changes because of temperature.  The error detection is working on each drop to keep thickness perfect so there shouldn't be any noticeable variation during a day of sawing.  Just an example...I have no idea the amount of time the valve needs to be open to drop 1".

Now suppose were sawing on a hot day and the hydraulic oil has heated up to 150 degrees.  We shut down and start up again the next morning but now the hydraulic oil is only 40 degrees.  Big change in oil viscosity.  We need to put the setworks through a false sawing cycle so the error detection can figure out how long to leave the valve open for perfect boards.  I was told this by TK and it did help.

Consistent machine operation.  By that I mean you don't want to make your drops with the engine at idle or half throttle.

You have to remember if the carriage drops 1/16" too much that board will be 1/16" thicker.  On the next drop if the carriage drop is perfect that board will be 1/16" too thin.  A variation between those two boards of 1/8".  Just to show the variation is double the error.

Overall I'm sawing with less error between boards than when I got the machine.  Still not perfect which is where I would like to be.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Ronnie

Thanks for the info Larry. Now that I know how they engineered the setworks it seems like it would be very difficult to get completely consistent results. It seems like they could come up with a more accurate way to control this. I wonder if Woodmizer owners suffer with the same inconsistent results.  :o
I wonder if changing the hydraulic fluid to a high end synthetic would help with temp swings, or a fluid cooler. It sounds like I need to warm the mill up for awhile every morning and let the fluid get hot. I sure do hate the inconsistent results!!!!
TK2000, JD5075, Stihl 660,270,170.

Ronnie

Thanks for everybodys input!!!! Maybe Will from TK will chime in.
TK2000, JD5075, Stihl 660,270,170.

ladylake


I'd really pay close attention to those plastic blocks as any binding is going to throw the setworks off.  Running my brothers 2000 a while ago I noticed inconsistent drop around the 4 to 5" height, put some atf on the post and it worked better pointing  at too tight plastic blocks.  There 's no reason not to have about 20 thousand's clearance all the way around the post which would never bind even with no lube.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Ronnie

Thanks ladylake, that's where I will start.
TK2000, JD5075, Stihl 660,270,170.

Larry

Quote from: Ronnie on July 04, 2013, 02:18:36 PM
I wonder if changing the hydraulic fluid to a high end synthetic would help with temp swings, or a fluid cooler. It sounds like I need to warm the mill up for awhile every morning and let the fluid get hot. I sure do hate the inconsistent results!!!!

I don't think it matters whether the fluid is hot or cold.  You just have to go through a few cycles so the setworks has a chance to calibrate itself.  Only takes a few minutes and should be good for the rest of the day.

Quote from: Ronnie on July 04, 2013, 02:31:27 PM
Maybe Will from TK will chime in.

Yes, that would be helpful.  There is very little in the instruction manual about the setworks and sometimes when I call in I'm not sure if I understand everything they tell me.  Of course there busy and may not want to go into a detailed explanation.

Steve has a point about the bushing blocks.  Its certainly worth while taking a hard look at them.  I've wondered if my paraffin lube made a difference or if just putting hours on the mill that loosened up the clearance enough to not cause a problem.



Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Will_Johnson

Hi Ronnie:

I am taking your post to mean that every single board coming off the mill is 1/16th to 1/8th off of your desired dimension? I would certainly expect you to get better accuracy than that. Keep in mind that I am a pencil pusher so my ability to help with technical issues is limited.

The mills will cut an occasional "off board." This can be caused by any number of things, often unrelated to the setworks. But again if every board is "off" then this is not right.

Lots of good feed-back from folks who have connected with our service department and gotten concerns addressed. That is, as always, my main advice: connect directly with the guys in our service department to get your problem analyzed and addressed. I will ask Mike to give you a call today.

Best,

Will


Will_Johnson

Hi Ronnie:

I had Mike call you. He called all numbers we have on file and left a message on one.

Also I notice you have an 816 area code. Given you are close by it's also always an option just to bring the mill by and we can have a look.

Best,

Will

Ronnie

Thanks Will, I got Mikes message and will give him a call. I do have an 816 cell number. I am about 80 miles south and a bit west of you. Thanks for jumping in there and helping out. I will post whatever I learn from Mike. I am afraid if I brought my 2000 in there I might leave with one of those 2200's or 2400's. Thanks for the great customer service.

smiley_clapping
TK2000, JD5075, Stihl 660,270,170.

Will_Johnson

Thank you Ronnie we are here to help and will get you happy one way or another.

ladylake


Not mentioned , if your logs have stress and the boards lift up on each end no setworks will make real consistent boards as the cant is bowing the other way.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Ga Mtn Man

Quote from: Larry on July 04, 2013, 01:32:30 PM

The setworks checks for drop errors each drop.  I was using the down button and the up lever ::) because it is faster.  I was told this defeats the setworks error detection.  Always use the up and down buttons.



Larry-  As I understood Mike's (lead tech at TK) explanation of the setworks error correction, after you press the AUTOSAW DOWN button it waits the DELAY time (current recommended setting is 5 sec) and then takes the reading and adjusts as needed for the next drop.  He didn't say anything to me about the AUTOSAW UP button being involved.  It would be nice to know which scenario is correct. ???
"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 LogRite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

Larry

It was Mike that told me to not use the up lever with the down button.  I didn't like it a bit as the up lever is so much faster, especially with big logs.  The carriage only has to go up enough to clear the log...not clear up to the return setting.

I need to call and verify that I heard/understood correctly as I would like to get back to using the up lever if it doesn't affect anything.

You know how bad us old farts hear things. :D :D
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

xlogger

My setworks started missing more than normal this weekend. It has been doing good not perfect for awhile now. Ronnie you must of started some virus on our TK's ;D. I'm going to try a few things said here and see how it does. I would like to hear from different make machines how well their setworks do.
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

Ronnie

Xlogger, Mike from TK told me to change the delay in the setworks from 30 to 5. I did this and and also lubed the riser blocks. I cut two cants into 3/4" boards with no errors. It wasn't much of a test, but there were no errors. I will cut some more today and make a post this evening. I would also like to hear about other setworks and how they work. Is the woodmizer electric up and down or hydraulic?
TK2000, JD5075, Stihl 660,270,170.

xlogger

I called Mike yesterday and talk to him about my setworks also. He thinks that we need to change the delay on my machine also. Problem is for me I probably going to have to work all week this week and need to cut this Sat. I leave for work before they open and get home late. Ronnie email me if you get a chance and maybe tell me how he walked you threw it. Ricky
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

Ga Mtn Man

I asked Mike A. at TK to clarify how the error correction works and here is his response via email:

"Most of what is in this posting is correct.

The "DEL" setting tells the setworks how long to wait after the head stops moving down, before it takes a reading to see if it stopped in the correct position.

You CAN use the lever, or the "Auto Saw Up" button, but for maximum accuracy, we recommend using the button.  Using the lever doesn't disable error correction, unless you move the lever before the "DEL" timer has reached zero.

For maximum accuracy, consistency and repetition are the keys.  Setworks operation is both distance and time based.  The setworks "knows" where it is supposed to stop the blade, and it "knows" based on previous results, when it must stop the saw head travel in order to achieve the desired result.  Any change in the system that changes friction, fluid resistance, or head travel, even slightly (we are dealing in milliseconds), can create an erroneous cut.  Erroneous cuts are often followed by corrections (cuts that compensate for the miscut by modifying the stop delay (ADN)). 

The least amount of accuracy can be experienced in an off-pace, or start/stop situation.  Let's say you make 3 cuts, then stop and talk to your neighbor for 5 minutes, then make another three cuts, turn the log, make 10 cuts and stop for lunch.  I believe that after 3 cuts, the setworks is likely "dialed in" for the current environment.  Every break in the action, introduces the opportunity for miscuts, due to changes in friction/temperature/hydraulic drift/etc.

The computer setworks is designed to help you increase output in a production environment by eliminating the need to measure/use the scale for every cut.  It does not turn the sawmill into a CNC milling machine with .001" accuracy.  We are still talking about wet/rough sawn lumber after all.

I hope this helps."


"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 LogRite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

Ga Mtn Man

Quote from: xlogger on July 09, 2013, 04:35:42 AM
I called Mike yesterday and talk to him about my setworks also. He thinks that we need to change the delay on my machine also. Problem is for me I probably going to have to work all week this week and need to cut this Sat. I leave for work before they open and get home late. Ronnie email me if you get a chance and maybe tell me how he walked you threw it. Ricky

Changing the DEL setting is easy.  While holding the SETUP and DISPLAY MODE buttons, turn the setworks on and release the buttons.  Press SETUP until DEL is displayed and use the ADJUST THICKNESS UP/DOWN buttons to change the setting to 5 (seconds).  This would also be a good time to check your kerf (KER) setting.  I use .08 for 0.042 blades, .09 for 0.045 blades and .10 for 0.055 blades.  Turn the setworks off and back on to exit programming mode.
"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 LogRite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

ladylake


If that delay is in seconds 30 is way too long as shorter logs might take 10 to 15  seconds or so.    Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

drobertson

I like the Accuset, and Accuset II,  I have tried to understand what you guys are talking about, and just have not got a picture in the head, sounds like a mess, I know there are TK's out running everyday,  but really, the Accuset  in my mind is one that's hard to bet, so quick, and to the number, I cant' see ever trying anything else, course I am a simple minded individual,  david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Ga Mtn Man

DEL is in seconds and, yes, 30 is too long.
"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 LogRite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

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