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RR Tie future

Started by bandmiller2, June 10, 2013, 08:38:34 PM

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bandmiller2

A fella asked me today why they still use wood railroad ties and not the newer cement ties.I said probably cost the wood ties are cheaper.Also I don't think they mix wood and concrete in the same bed and theirs a lot of wood in use.Did I give him the right answer.??Whats the long term future for wood ties, are they going the way of the doe doe bird.? Frank C.
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beenthere

A lot of attempts to replace wood ties with concrete end up the concrete ones get beat up much sooner, and have to be replaced.
The wood absorbs a lot of shock and if available, often end up much cheaper per mile of track.
But it is a matter of economics, and several variables to take into consideration.

Very little cost to a tie, that is produced by slabbing four sides.
Takes a beating, and keeps on ticking.

south central Wisconsin
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GeneWengert-WoodDoc

I have heard the same info about concrete not lasting too long with heavy loads and high speed trains.  Hence, wood is the best.  Even so, most wood ties are replaced due to mechanical wear or damage and not decay.  So, using more ties per mile means longer life, even though it does cost more initially.  As you might expect, replacement is very expensive, although it is highly automated.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

trainwreck

wood ties will always have a place in the railroad.   

concrete ties only work good in some places,   the hotter and dryer it is the better concrete will work.   I have seen brand new concrete tire reduced to a muddy paste in as little as 2 years.

tractormanNwv

I will be in a meeting with the RR we work for tomorrow here in Philadelphia, if I don't forget I will ask one of the men from the Engineering Dept in Jacksonville ( freind of mine ) just what the future of wood ties really is......I'm sure I already know the answer  ;D  I may have to eat crow but, I think you need to just keep your blades sharp....for now.


Jim

timberlinetree

We did a job in ct near a rail line and their must have been around 300-500 concrete ties piled up. Judging by trees growing up through them they must have been sitting there for about 10 years? Must have been a good idea gone bad? On another note csx?(rail road) are raising all the bridges (some bran New) to accommodate double stacked trains. They are making some major investments here in w mass. Good for ties and all those who work with them.
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millstead

i work for the norfolk southern and there where some places that used concrete ties but they took them out and replaced them with wood. i think amtrak was putting them in on the east coast.

millstead

Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on June 10, 2013, 09:38:46 PM
I have heard the same info about concrete not lasting too long with heavy loads and high speed trains.  Hence, wood is the best.  Even so, most wood ties are replaced due to mechanical wear or damage and not decay.  So, using more ties per mile means longer life, even though it does cost more initially.  As you might expect, replacement is very expensive, although it is highly automated.
the places i have seen concrete ties where 20 years old. most wood ties are replaced  due to decay not mechanical failure

Ron Wenrich

I've been looking at some of the articles written about concrete vs wooden ties.  Concrete ties are heavier, and cost about twice as much as wooden ties.  There are fewer concrete ties per mile, and they hold up better than wood, in most situations.  2007 installation costs were $236,000 for 1 mile of wooden ties and $308,000 for the concrete ties.

Concrete ties are needed for high speed rail and heavy freight routes.  They also work well on curves.  But, there have been some problems with the plates on concrete ties.  Another problem arises from derailments where they scar a wooden tie, they crush a concrete one.  That means a lot more downtime to get the line up and running.  You also need much better drainage for the concrete ties, or you develop wet spots in the line.  Maybe that is a reason for the continuation of using wood in many areas, as converting to concrete would mean a bed improvement.

Many commuter lines use concrete ties, but that is due to government supplements.  If that money dries up, their usage may go down.  Maintenance costs are lower with concrete ties.  I don't think the economics hold up as well for concrete on those lines that don't move much freight.  There has been some problems with concrete quality, and in some instances, all of the concrete ties had to be replaced. 

Tie life for wood is projected to be about 35 years and concrete is projected at 45-50 years.  A lot depends on climate and tonnage conditions.  They're starting to use a dual treat of borate and creosote.  That increases the life expectancy of wood ties in certain climates, most notably the South.
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francismilker

I haven't worked on the railroad for 13 years now but when I did I was a Signalman. (worked on train signaling and grade crossing warning lights.) 

At that time, one of the main reasons for removing concrete ties was due to the rebar inside them causing problems with the new-technology electronics on the signaling systems. 

It's basically a very high frequency AC signal using the two rails as conductors instead of the old poleline from yesteryear.  The rebar was causing all kinds of interference issues. 

I think they toyed around with all types of insulated pads between the rails and the concrete ties but don't know if they ever came up with a solution.
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Chris Burchfield

There is a lot of information out there on Recycled-Plastic Composite Railroad Ties.  I'd read something about it a while ago.  Just Google it.
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Ron Wenrich

The composite tie is interesting.  A wooden center with plastic coating.  They even said they can use OSB as a core.  The life expectancy on plastic isn't known, from what I found.  They're projecting 40-45 years. 
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GeneWengert-WoodDoc

BNSF has removed concrete ties from their main lines.

After many trains have passed over a tie, the spike begins to loosen and the tie plate cuts into the wood.  So, the tie is replaced.  To reduce the damage from decay, the road bed is gravel so that any moisture will quickly drain away.  Decay fungi need moisture for them to be active.  Further, ties are heavily treated with creosote which prevents decay for many, many years in most environments.

Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

Okrafarmer

I've seen a good deal of track replacement going on around here. Our rail lines are very busy. The CSX and Norfolk Southern both go through our area. The rail beside my sawmill sees a lot of trains per day. I don't count them, but I know I've seen at least 8 trains in a day, probably more.
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GeneWengert-WoodDoc

Check out the Railway Tie Assn statements on why wood is better.

http://www.rta.org/why-wood
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

tractormanNwv

After meeting with the Engineering Dept for the RR that we are a contractor for, I can tell you his answer is....Wood ties are the  "heart" of RR ties, yes, he said a lot of expermentations are going on, and some products will outlast wood but,....the price of "non-wood" products are so expensive in comparison to wood it does'nt justify buying the man made ties. Don't know how many years I have left on the Earth, but he said wood ties will not go out of style in my lifetime. I stepped on a few ties of the bridge I'm working on here in Philadelphia and was bothered by them crumbling under my weight, but according to the RR as long as every 2nd one is good it will hold. I know they will seperate ties allowing an access window so I can drop a motor or gearbox between the rails and lower it under the bridge with no problem.


Jim

timberjackrob

I work as conductor for ns run from burnside ky to chatt tenn  no concrete ties on our route except for a few hundred feet where a defect detector is installed I have seen a lot on csx line
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Kansas

I find it interesting about the signal interference. Found out from a guy on a fire department that if you need to stop a train, just toss a log chain over the tracks. It signals that something is wrong. He also said that it brings all the railroad people out of the woodwork in short order, all of them pithed off. So I guess if you ever get a piece of equipment hung up on the tracks, toss a log chain over them. For all I know, anything metal will do.

bandmiller2

My brother was a surveyer for amtrack when they were rebuilding the northeast corridor for high speed trains.He said they didn't like to use steel tapes to measure because sometimes they would trip the signals if they crossed the rails. Guess the wood tie is safe for a long time. If you haven't seen them replacing ties its worth watching totally automated,the crew I watched had all Detroit diesels,and ear muffs of course. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

dgdrls

I really enjoy these RR tie threads.  I find the whole tie process interesting.

I have been passing 2 stacks of ties on my way to work for months.
I finally stopped and took a close look.



  

 

Seems the sawyer cut too close to the heart/pith, yet there it is creosoted and waiting to go in.
I will say where these ties are staged I don't believe the train exceeds 10 M.P.H.

I keep learning more every day ;)

Best
DGD

beenthere

Were these ties machined and drilled for tie plates?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

WH_Conley

Are those going in an industrial plant type setting? The one on the far right in the second pic has too much wane in the bearing area of the face. Both of those would be bought as industrial s at our local yard. The center one looks to be awful close to the pith too.
Bill

dgdrls

Quote from: beenthere on July 08, 2013, 08:46:22 PM
Were these ties machined and drilled for tie plates?

I did not see any drilling,  I did notice one of the ties in the bunch showed, mechanical incising.

The tie in the top pic is the same one as the bottom pic on the left (if there was a question)

WH_C, the bundles were along the Finger Lakes Line,  http://www.fglkrail.com/  semi commercial area but not a yard.
I'll get some more pics tomorrow of the bundles.

DGD

Ron Wenrich

I've never been to the Koppers tie yard, even though I've sent hundreds of loads there.  But, my understanding of the process is they let the ties air dry for a period of time before they process them.  Then, they're double end trimmed and sent through a timber sizer.  That makes them all uniform in size. 

It doesn't appear that these have gone through a timber sizer.  They could have been rejects from a place like Koppers.   They buy rejects for $5 and treat them and sell to a different market.  These ties may be good enough for that market.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

dgdrls

Here are some more pics from the tie pile.

some of these seem decent others not so much.
I suspect as Ron W pointed out "They buy rejects for $5 and treat them and sell to a different market.  These ties may be good enough for that market.

In any event based on some of the in-service ties I saw, these would be a great improvement.

DGD




  

  

  

  

 

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