Contract Loggers dilemma

[PAFaller]

Im in a bind and sort of confused as to what to do right now. I contract cut for a relatively small sawmill, and the last 8 months or so things havent been quite right. Some of you may know from my other posts that I also have a forestry degree, but I really like the logging aspect of woods work. But I offer more than just the logging aspect to this mill. I am constantly talking to landowners trying to find timber, cutting and marketing polewood out of sales to make the jobs look neater and generate more revenue etc. And I was told when I started that these guys wanted quality not quantity when it came to the logging. Now they are producing more, and hired a guy a few months ago who produces like crazy but his work is less than stellar. I wont get in to details, but you can tell hes focused strictly on production. I dont want to sound like Im whining, but is it wrong to think its BS that we get paid the same cut and skid rate, when Im on sites with sensitive landowners making the mill look good and the other crew runs wide open all the time, never minding the mud or how the jobs really look? Im super frustrated, I like the guys I work for but Im about ready to put my 240 up for sale and just hang it up. I feel like its a slap in the face to work so hard to make the mill look good and always be helping them out, and then in reality taking a pay cut because I dont smash and crash in the name of production. Its been a fun ride, but Im not really sure Id miss it. I dont want to lower my standards, but with most landowners and sawmills only concerned about revenue, Im not sure theres a place for a guy like me in this business any more.

[Timbercruiser]

Well its easy to feel that way and you have a good point for sure people feel the same way in alot of cases. But doing a good job and things your way sounds like its not that bad if you feel good about it. Is there any hope for you in talking to the mill about what you think ??. Is there any other options for a guy doing select cutting of private lots in your area ? . Dont sell your machine is what I would tell you and dont quit cutting. If your happy with the type of job you leave behind then you wont be happy doing it any other way anyway. Its a tough world in the woods these days and hard to make one dollar and be happy. We all get down on ourselves too much in the bad times for sure . Keep your head up and look for other options anyway. Take care and work safe 

[saxon0364]

I can see why that would be aggravating for you.  Not easy to take the time to do it right and not make as much as guys that smash and grab. But,,,that's logging.   You've got choices.   You can just not worry about the "other guys" and keep doing what you do, you can find another mill to contract with (not to tough to do that right now, seems new crews are be added all over) or you can quit.     I'd hang in there.Your a contractor, not an employee, keep your ear to the ground and when a mill that you want to work for needs a good logger make a move. 

[thecfarm]

That smash and crash guy would be hitting the road real quick on my land. But I'm the type that walks a loggers job before I let them look at my land. I have a tractor and I expect to be able to still drive my tractor on my land after a logging job too. Without bulling it throw a bunch of brush and tops and high stumps.

[PAFaller]

Cfarm I cut in Maine for a few years, worked with some real good foresters up there. I ran a little 440c, and really enjoyed it. My thought is there is a place for everybody, and in Maine there was a good variety of crews. You had the big chipping guys, some CTL guys, and then small guys that were good with a saw. The foresters I dealt with were always honest and the rates to cut and skid were good. You still had to work, but you could take that extra couple minutes to measure and buck and tree in half in the woods before skidding it so as to not damage a nice young stem. I guess what Im saying is they expected quality work but made the rates fair enough that you could earn a good living that way. Im not making any more now than I was then as far as the cut and skid rates go, that was 8 years ago, fuel is way more expensive, insurance has gone up, etc. In some ways Im committed to the industry and I love what I do, but Im not sure with the way things are its worth continuing to invest in this when its questionable if the effort is appreciated.

[Timbercruiser]

Cfarm I cut in Maine for a few years, worked with some real good foresters up there. I ran a little 440c, and really enjoyed it. My thought is there is a place for everybody, and in Maine there was a good variety of crews. You had the big chipping guys, some CTL guys, and then small guys that were good with a saw. The foresters I dealt with were always honest and the rates to cut and skid were good. You still had to work, but you could take that extra couple minutes to measure and buck and tree in half in the woods before skidding it so as to not damage a nice young stem. I guess what Im saying is they expected quality work but made the rates fair enough that you could earn a good living that way. Im not making any more now than I was then as far as the cut and skid rates go, that was 8 years ago, fuel is way more expensive, insurance has gone up, etc. In some ways Im committed to the industry and I love what I do, but Im not sure with the way things are its worth continuing to invest in this when its questionable if the effort is appreciated.

Its good somebody still wants to do a good job in the woods

[beenthere]

Sounds much like the dilemma of the horse logger.

But the log buyer is just interested in logs (likely pays more for high quality so that is a plus), not in how neat and careful the forest is left for the landowner. At least, as I see it getting rung out. The logger gets caught "with his in the ringer" so to speak, between the buyer and the landowner.

"Light on the Land" is good, and the real benefit is to the landowner (although sometimes that is where the "I don't care, give me top dollar now" attitude can prevail).

I sympathize with your plight. Has to be very frustrating. Having good scruples should prevail.

[barbender]

It sounds like you need to talk to the mill to me.

[ayerwood]

My first thought when I read your post was keep doing what you are doing until you can make a better move.  Discuss with your contact at the mill?  If this guy is not encroaching on your contracts and finances, then continue business as usual.  Most times, a reputation is what carries a man's worth and you sound like you are doing it right.  Customers will notice and you should fit that(letters of recommendation, pictures, more pictures, education, a harvest process "journal", etc.) into your contract sales pitch to them.  Which it sounds like you have been doing.  I have found that customers, and most people in general, respond to the visuals very positively rather than words and figures alone. My parents were taken to the cleaners on a maple job a few years back, so my feelings around these parts against shotty contractors is well known.  Nobody is even allowed to look at my property unless I call them.  Having said that, I only use reputable buyers/contractors I find out about through the grape vine. If you were working in western WA, I would likely be working with you.  Most all of my sales/contracting work are word of mouth so I think that a reputation helps tremendously.

All said, keep your head up and keep going.  There are other mills, other landowners, other contracts to be had, and a lifetime of enjoyment and satisfaction in what you do...

[Ianab]

Do you need to do some marketing using your lower impact and more careful techniques?

Get the jobs from the more concerned landowners that want the better job done, and not out for every last $$. Of course the more careful harvesting take a bit more time, and so should attract a premium. But you need to market this and find those jobs where it matters.

Otherwise, as was said, you are the meat in the sandwich between the mill that want's to pay the least, and the landowner that want's to receive the most.

Ian

[Corley5]

Sounds like it's time to shop your services to other mills or go independent.

[WDH]

PA,

You are a young guy.  Your quality work will pay off over time.  In the longer run, it will sort you out from the blow and go guys, and when the race is over, you will have won and the others will be gone.  I say stay the course and keep your eye out for better opportunities that reward you properly. 

[240b]

I've been in the same boat." we are offering you these lots because they can't be messed up. And oh yeah, no deal on the stumpage."  or "how come you don't do all the things you used to do?(york rake landings trails, pull a few cords for the landowner, cut the odd tree hanging into the horse pasture)" Why? because I am expected to do way more than xyz does for the same money.. Fact is I can find work without you..  If your skidder is paid for and you can use your degree for something, do it. In the long run you will be better off. You can always go back to choppin' for a mill.  If you sell it you'll need to start from zero (no fun).  You don't need to burn the bridge with the mill just tell them your slowing down, health reasons or something.  If you want to  put it up in flames call me, I am a expert my wife says.

[learner]

I would suggest having a talk with the mill owner/owners.  Because you contract for them, you represent them basically.  That means what you do and how you do it reflects on them.
If they are like me then they really do care about their mills reputation.  And that means the people who log for them affect their reputation for quality just as much as the lumber they produce.  You should talk to them before you make any decision about quiting or moving on.
You need to find out if they are just interested in quantity now instead of quality.  Remind them that anyone can bring them large amounts of trash timber but that you consistently bring them top quality saw logs AND leave the Land-Owners satisfied that they did bussiness with you.  In the long run, it's those quality logs and land-owner satisfaction that are worth the most.  Both in quality lumber, the reputation for supplying quality lumber and most importantly being known as a mill that values the land-owners that supply that top quality timber.
I have two independent loggers that bring me the good saw logs because i pay a little more than the other mills do for those logs.  Anything less than top quality they can take to one of the other mills that care more about production than quality.
I guess i'm just trying to say check out your options and talk to the mill owners before you just give up.  The best of luck to you and Stay Safe out there!

[Autocar]

Well in my opinion most the mills Ive sold logs to want to talk about good forestry but it always comes down to production and the dollar bills. If your able to go out on your own and build a reputation of doing a good job always thinking about the next generation. This is a hard job to walk away from once it is in your blood stream. Hope the best for you Bill.

[Mark K]

I talk to PAfaller on the phone a couple times a week and feel his frustration. I seen the woodlot he's cutting on and I would personally turn down. Ground is steep, small wood and a ton of TSI work. Ive taken a few of those jobs over the years and wonder why I did. I run into the same thing with the mill I work for. Constantly got compared to a smash and crash crew. It really bothered me until I went to there site with my forester one day. It looked like a tornado went thru. I plug along at my own speed and I can sleep at night with the job I've done. Keep plugging along the way you are. Keep your options open, theres more mills out there. I worked for a couple mills till I found my home.

[Ed_K]

Go independant,keep your good reputation.you'll have jobs in front of you when the smash an crash guys are gone.Don't take long for landowner's compare notes and run them off.

[CTL logger]

I can definitely understand where PAfaller is coming from I've worked for every mill around here most are gone or became one big mill, really limits my choices. I feel very lucky to work for the company I work for, I can't imagine being under a sawmills thumb I don't have foresters coming in looking at my woodpile telling me you could get a log out of that, only seeing the one end I pull it out it's a #3 all day long. I'd hate to see ya throw in the towel one of these days us younger guys will be all that's left. The equipment I run is geared for high production and most mills wouldn't want me anyways I've been told too big of equipment too much production, good thing I'm happy where I'm at. Good luck I'd hate to see ya quit.

[T Welsh]

Go independant,keep your good reputation.you'll have jobs in front of you when the smash an crash guys are gone.Don't take long for landowner's compare notes and run them off.

Could not have said it better! Tim

[stamper]

From what has been said, You fit the profile of a man who would be good as independent operator.
The "smash & grab" crew will get a bad reputation...I think that is true anywhere you go.