climbing & cutting

[Forrest277]

thought some of you guys might like this ...



5th climb n cut of the day... new lanyard worked great, happy client, happy me, steaks and beer stashed what more could we ask for...

this work is so much fun sometimes I feel guilty getting paid !

If anyone wants to know more I'd be happy to share my rig with you, stoked on the day and encourage anyone interested to get into this kind of thing if you have a head for heights.  Its just the best !

peace out n happy cuttin as ever

now you can understand why I chose a light saw.

vid here>>  http://www.youtube.com/user/forrest277?feature=mhum

GF
==

[thecfarm]

I like my feet not much more than about 4 feet of the ground. That's a little on the high side of 4 feet.  ;D 

[brendonv]

Cool.  A bit light on ppe and i dont see a back up secure tie in.  Your lanyard strikes me as scary too.

Not sure what your plans are, but have you checked out any arborist forums?  I am not sure im allowed to post links to other sites but if i am id be more than happy to put you in the right direction.

[justallan1]

I still find it easier to take the limbs off with the tree on the ground! ;D
I'll leave the climbing to you guys that know what you are doing.

Allan

[Forrest277]

Cool.  A bit light on ppe and i dont see a back up secure tie in.  Your lanyard strikes me as scary too.

Not sure what your plans are, but have you checked out any arborist forums?  I am not sure im allowed to post links to other sites but if i am id be more than happy to put you in the right direction.

thanks for your comments ... and your concern _ you have not to worry, my friend,


i have utmost faith in my rigging... from today for example, I have double lanyards attached to the trunck at the cut point, all my rigging behind me away from the branch.

Used SRT to ascend, attach second sling/lanyard to a secondary branch, climb the overhang and install at first high saddle. Then, re attach both loops higher up, continue to ascend to final cutting saddle. bring the saw up on tertiary line. Start saw. make the undercut, make the top cut . descend the saw. reverse sequence for descent.

im only writing this so you dont worry...:°)

good prep of my gear always lol

apologies if you are not in to Hip-Hop, but i love this group lol...
heres how the cut went >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf-dS-gyEcY

thanks again to contact me

GF
==

[Forrest277]

Cool.  A bit light on ppe and i dont see a back up secure tie in.  Your lanyard strikes me as scary too.

Not sure what your plans are, but have you checked out any arborist forums?  I am not sure im allowed to post links to other sites but if i am id be more than happy to put you in the right direction.

_ sure thing _ do you have any reccomendations ? _ and just for laughs i gotta share this clip with you >>

this guy is my hero >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W_7uIapoHc

[brendonv]

Search for "the treehouse" or " treebuzz".  You can also see my videos under cttreeclimber on youtube too.  Good luck.

[Forrest277]

Search for "the treehouse" or " treebuzz".  You can also see my videos under cttreeclimber on youtube too.  Good luck.

yes _ that sounds good _

you too stay safe and happy climbing

GF
==

[FIBC]

Good job,when you cut down a tree as logs,you need a best packaing solution,I think which is the vented FIBC bag,it is your good choice for your logs.For more details please visit our website:
URL DELETED

[Jeff]

Not sure how the Chinese spammer got past our defenses, but he is now banned. Now I gotta go see what admin let him in so we can harass him! :D   I hope it wasn't me! :D

[Forrest277]

Not sure how the Chinese spammer got past our defenses, but he is now banned. Now I gotta go see what admin let him in so we can harass him! :D   I hope it wasn't me! :D

wow _ thankstto get on it so quickly _ much appreciated, and cool to know there is someone there ) damb chinks !

dudes like this i find inspiring >>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSRq9qhHffs

great forum thanks for the service

GF
==

[Forrest277]

I like to study the hinge after a high cut like this. the drop went perfectly and managed to not crush the underlying bushes, or squash any pets lol :°))... the butt end ending up by the trunk.



and the rear of the hinge





hope this is appreciated

GF
==

[JohnM]

Not sure how the Chinese spammer got past our defenses, but he is now banned. Now I gotta go see what admin let him in so we can harass him! :D   I hope it wasn't me! :D

wow _ thankstto get on it so quickly _ much appreciated, and cool to know there is someone there ) damb chinks!

Misspelled racial slur, classic.

[Forrest277]

Not sure how the Chinese spammer got past our defenses, but he is now banned. Now I gotta go see what admin let him in so we can harass him! :D   I hope it wasn't me! :D

wow _ thankstto get on it so quickly _ much appreciated, and cool to know there is someone there ) damb chinks!

Misspelled racial slur, classic.

more of an abbreviation than a slur _ but thanks all the same _ they also tried to hack my email account lol!

[Forrest277]

Cool.  A bit light on ppe and i dont see a back up secure tie in.  Your lanyard strikes me as scary too.

here are the specs on the ropes I actually use... this should put your mind to rest !

lanyard>>


simond rock climbing rope>>


plus I have 2 tonne rated Beal slings as secondary tie on's



I gotta say please stop worrying ! all this is more than enough to hold my 75kg plus a 8kg saw. PLUS I actually have alot of rock climbing experience_ which is alot MORE dangerous than tree work.



look mum NO ROPES

dig

GF
==

[brendonv]

I really like how you use cable clamps to secure your rope together on your lanyard(joking of course).  You can have the strongest rope in the world but the fact of how you connect them means it all.

My ten years combined climbing experience, from being head climber for my business, foreman and lead for another company, and contract climbing for numerous other companies to this day must not be enough to make reccomendations about unsafe work practices.

But hey, as long as you think its right!

Good luck, im not losing sleep over it!

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hello All,

I have enjoyed reading and following GF's post and adventures in the "vertical world," very much.  Thanks for posting all your adventures, thoughts, creations and discoveries.  I must come to his defense on a few points, and since others have share their background and credentials to validate their position, I will do the same.  ;)

I first started as 2nd climber,ground man on a 2 man crew, part time after school in 1978, and already had been rock climbing/caving since 1968.    I am a certified AMGA "rock site manager", was an originating member of the ACCT (Association for Challenge Course Technologies), tactical ropes, rigging and high angle instructor, etc....So lets say I have been in the vertical world for a relatively long time.

North America is just catching up to where most of Europe (particularly France) has been for almost 35 years.  The French "high angle" world and SRT, DdRT, DRT methods employed in the Arborist field have been way ahead of us for some time, and just now are we about even.  I was among some of the first arborist to start using "rock climbing" rigging and gear in the Arborist field, as was Bruce Smith, the author of "On Rope," who is a friend and teacher.  There was much controversy in those beginning years. 

Though non cable cord-cable clamp secured lanyards, straps and anchors aren't the very best application, they are safe and commonly used for "live load" application.  There is a specific attachment method and "torque load" requirement for the bolts, but I see nothing wrong with GF's use of them, as it is the norm in many applications and rigging circles.  With that type of rope I would much rather see a good "hand splice," but in a pinch, cable clamps are safe and get the job done.

Keep up the great work GF, love seeing what the next generation is up to.

Warm Regards,

jay

[brendonv]

Would not be allowed at comps or any worksite around here!

[bill m]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks using cable clamps for rope is unsafe. Can someone show my where in the Z133 regulations it says cable clamps can be used on synthetic rope? I can't find it.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Bill M,

I'm not sure that the Z133 copy I have is current, nor do I believe it is that specific.  I will say that when the "Euro-Rock Climbing gear" started to show up on the seen, it was all the buzz for being unsafe.  SRT was not allowed in most of the tree industry at that time, nor the "free style" climber harnesses, which are common today.

Hello Brendov,

Well I have seen them at comps, so at some they must have been allowed, but that was the mid to late 80's. As for work sites in Connecticut, they would be because I was crew chief of Asplundh from 1988 to 89 in West Hartford area and then lead climber for "Second Nature Tree Care."  I am also the tree warden for my town here in Vermont, and as long as the gear is certified or meets one of the many "high angle" standards, it is used. 

Now lets be clear, I don't like them (they get caught on stuff) and would much prefer to see a braided splice or "bartack" system used, but when done correctly they aren't unsafe, just cumbersome.

[Forrest277]

I really like how you use cable clamps to secure your rope together on your lanyard(joking of course).  You can have the strongest rope in the world but the fact of how you connect them means it all.

My ten years combined climbing experience, from being head climber for my business, foreman and lead for another company, and contract climbing for numerous other companies to this day must not be enough to make reccomendations about unsafe work practices.

But hey, as long as you think its right!

Good luck, im not losing sleep over it!

I'm not disrespecting your experience when I say this, my friend, but honestly, when it comes to regulations and "unsafe work practices" my eyes start glazing over.

  These days there are so many directives and safety regs, if I had read all the guidelines I would probably turn up to the job and say "sorry can't do it, its too dangerous"  or on the other hand I could reasonably assess the climb, apply what I know, and get the job done.

Furthermore, there are certain accepted methods used by arborists, that I would never use myself, for example the practice of climbing with the saw attached to the harness.  I avoid doing this at all costs, as it limits my flexiblity and is very cumbersome. I'd much rather have the saw attached independantly to the tree than to my harness.

[Forrest277]

Hello All,

I have enjoyed reading and following GF's post and adventures in the "vertical world," very much.  Thanks for posting all your adventures, thoughts, creations and discoveries.  I must come to his defense on a few points, and since others have share their background and credentials to validate their position, I will do the same.  ;)

I first started as 2nd climber,ground man on a 2 man crew, part time after school in 1978, and already had been rock climbing/caving since 1968.    I am a certified AMGA "rock site manager", was an originating member of the ACCT (Association for Challenge Course Technologies), tactical ropes, rigging and high angle instructor, etc....So lets say I have been in the vertical world for a relatively long time.

North America is just catching up to where most of Europe (particularly France) has been for almost 35 years.  The French "high angle" world and SRT, DdRT, DRT methods employed in the Arborist field have been way ahead of us for some time, and just now are we about even.  I was among some of the first arborist to start using "rock climbing" rigging and gear in the Arborist field, as was Bruce Smith, the author of "On Rope," who is a friend and teacher.  There was much controversy in those beginning years. 

Though non cable cord-cable clamp secured lanyards, straps and anchors aren't the very best application, they are safe and commonly used for "live load" application.  There is a specific attachment method and "torque load" requirement for the bolts, but I see nothing wrong with GF's use of them, as it is the norm in many applications and rigging circles.  With that type of rope I would much rather see a good "hand splice," but in a pinch, cable clamps are safe and get the job done.

Keep up the great work GF, love seeing what the next generation is up to.

Warm Regards,

jay

Jay, thanks for the kind words and support. Much appreciated. I was trained in the Cadets, in the 80's and we abseilled off the 100foot local church tower for fun. That was at my school.

Honestly, I never would have thought that my lanyard would cause such a reponse. I could hang elephants off that thing its so strong (with the clamps - tight, but not over-tight).

Thank you also for your supporting comments. I think the debate is a healthy one. I tend to pick and choose my rigging depending on situation and the job. I always keep it to a minimum to reduce weight and make life easier when high up.

Stay in touch and good to hear from you

GF
==

 

[brendonv]

Jay, its 2013.  Your speaking about you've seen in the 80's.  Boy have things changed.

In no way shape or form would his work practices be allowed at any legit company today.  Im wondering how he will get to the ground in emergency with a sling as his secondary tie in.  Wheres the rope and friction hitch setup?  Its a shame your giving suggestions based off rock climbing and the olden days.

Good luck forest, as long as you keep telling yourself its ok, then it must be.   ;). Your accident in France should not affect my insurance rates. 

Im not much for beating a horse, but i just don't care to see new angels born should a newbie stumble across this sillyness thinking its the way to do it.

[bill m]

Forrest277, I don't think anyone said your lanyard / sling is not strong. What we are saying is that it DOES NOT appear to be SAFE. What are the torque specs for that clamp when using it on synthetic rope? I can't find numbers anywhere. How do you know it is tight enough so it does not slip but not so tight that it starts crushing the rope fibers when it is loaded.

[Forrest277]

Jay, its 2013.  Your speaking about you've seen in the 80's.  Boy have things changed.

In no way shape or form would his work practices be allowed at any legit company today.  Im wondering how he will get to the ground in emergency with a sling as his secondary tie in.  Wheres the rope and friction hitch setup?  Its a shame your giving suggestions based off rock climbing and the olden days.

Good luck forest, as long as you keep telling yourself its ok, then it must be.   ;). Your accident in France should not affect my insurance rates. 

Im not much for beating a horse, but i just don't care to see new angels born should a newbie stumble across this sillyness thinking its the way to do it.

I dont know man _ I see it like this ok ... with that saw dangling from your harness I can understand why you need insurance.


  There are things seen as safe practice, which to me feel very unsafe.

So unless we are going to talk about it properly _ each to his own _ its my life and I do what I feel comfortable with, maybe I am just a good climber.

If i'm completely honest I have never taken out an insurance for any of the MORE dangerous things I do, and have done, and will continue to do, without accident.

Like Fred Dibnah, he NEVER had an accident his whole life, and worked much higher than any of us. There is no tree  I couldn't dismantle with a very simple and safe rig including my cable ties.

Furthermore I think its essential young climbers understand how to use traditional techniques to climb, and not get so caught up in all this nanny state overprotectionism safety paranioa.

[Forrest277]

Forrest277, I don't think anyone said your lanyard / sling is not strong. What we are saying is that it DOES NOT appear to be SAFE. What are the torque specs for that clamp when using it on synthetic rope? I can't find numbers anywhere. How do you know it is tight enough so it does not slip but not so tight that it starts crushing the rope fibers when it is loaded.

Bill, my friend, I use good judgement and old fashioned common sense. There is no more to say about it than that.
It works, i check my gear regularly, I train with my gear, I work with my gear.  There is no way to quantify it exactly, but there is always more than one way to skin a cat.



cheers

GF
==

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Jay, its 2013.  Your speaking about you've seen in the 80's.  Boy have things changed.

Hello Brendonv,

First, lets get back on the page of respectfully taking different viewpoints about things, without making definitive statements, or being overly critical of each other.  We can all be guilty of that, me especially, as I teach and teachers can be "know it alls."  Please forgive me if I ever come across that way, and correct me if I get out of line.  If I am in error on something that is based in a hard fact (2+2=4 kind'a stuff) please point it out to me, we all make mistakes.

Now back on point.  I was not speaking of what I did in the eighties per say, but more of a validation of how long I have been rigging and climbing, as well as, when I was "hot and heavy" working mainly as an arborist and climber.  I know things have changed, and much more could and should change in the field of arborist rigging criteria.  I stay up to date the best I can in all things related to the "high angle" environment, not just here, but in other locations as well, and not just for the Arborist trade.

In no way shape or form would his work practices be allowed at any legit company today.

That is a pretty strong and definitive statement, and one that I would not make without observing the person work and rig for different challenges.  Do I believe he is working outside of what North American Arborist do on a daily basis, that is probably true.  The French started adapting "rock climbing" gear for tree work starting in the late 1960's to early 1970's and it only gets better each year.  Petzl harnesses and helmets were not allow at Asplundh Tree Services until I became a crew chief, with similar claims of, "they aren't safe," or appropriate for tree work.  Neither of which is true, and now you commonly see Petzl gear on Arborist belts, and heads.

Its a shame your giving suggestions based off rock climbing and the olden days.

Now I'm not sure if you meant to be that blunt, but I will take it in stride and point out, that unless you are a certified instructor of some kind, (like I am) and have the amount of time "on rope," that I do, you really should not make such statements.  I have not only taught advanced arborist rigging and climbing techniques, but also tactical rigging for snippers, caving, rock climbing, confined space and water rescue, steeplejack rigging, and the list goes on.  Are all my certificates up to date, heck no, was just a full time job keeping half of them, so when I need to for a class, I recertify in whatever I am asked to teach, and/or I get a co facilitator like yourself to take lead, then I don't have to bother.  Basically, if you don't have a "technical and traditional lead climbers/mountaineers" climbing back ground, (which is much more involved and technical than tree rigging, you really shouldn't speak to the crossover applicability between these two high angle environments.)  I gave the advice I did based on not just being an Arborist, but as a master rigger, that's not supercilious or verbose, just the facts.

Your accident in France should not affect my insurance rates. 

That is not really cool.  Unless I see someone, that obviously does not know what "in Sam hill they are doing," I would not project them having an accident, even in jest. 

Im not much for beating a horse, but i just don't care to see new angels born should a newbie stumble across this silliness thinking its the way to do it.

I'm not sure, how long GF has been climbing and rigging, and to talk about his very insightful post and photos as silliness, is not appropriate, IMO. He seems to be very thoughtful and well versed in the elements of the "vertical world."  Maybe I am incorrect, but I need more evidence before I would be overly critical of his practices.

Do I like cable clamp terminations, absolutely not, bartack, hand splice or knot would be much better, but I have used them in rescue and CC applications as they are quick and dependable if you have the experience and know what you are doing with them.

GF,

I don't like climbing with a saw on my belt either.  "Lining your saw" to it's on rig is more common in Europe than in the states.  You should learn to do it both ways, as there are times when it is useful.  Keep up the post and your thinking about this world of trees and rigging for their health.

[beenthere]

Don't think you guys are making any headway. Just well let it go........ :

[brendonv]

Oh boy  8)


Best i leave the instruction for the qualified, over and out. ;D

[bill m]

Jay C. How can you say cable clamps are fast when I can tie an 8 on a bite 10 times while you are going to get a wrench and the 8 will do the same thing.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hello Bill M.,

I couldn't agree more, 99.9% of the time.  I would also like to point out one more time, that I would also rather see GF use a hand splice, bar tack, or some type of appropriate knot for his terminations that will work with the type of rope he is using.

In tactical and rescue scenarios, you can often have the need to secure a line that is under load or vectored, and if "dog wrapping" or "cinching" ties can not be achieved, or you are dealing with a cable or cable cored rope, you will need to know how to employ (properly) one of the mechanical clamping devices.

Regards,

jay

[Forrest277]

First, lets get back on the page of respectfully taking different viewpoints about things, without making definitive statements, or being overly critical of each other.

GF,

I don't like climbing with a saw on my belt either.  "Lining your saw" to it's on rig is more common in Europe than in the states.  You should learn to do it both ways, as there are times when it is useful.  Keep up the post and your thinking about this world of trees and rigging for their health.

Jay, thanks again for your insightful comments. 

I only come on here to share things I think other workers might find useful. I get by in life doing what I do, and my clients call me for a wide range of jobs.

This is all i do, I dont make huge money but we live good with the simple things we have. I enjoy immensely tree work of all kinds felling, climbing, maintenance and general housekeeping.

I am also a qualified plant scientist with 3 degrees, plus 3 years developmental biology research. I am therefore perfectly capable of understanding a well presented point of view.
>>>Jay, your advices are much appreciated.
I don't appreciate the "know it all" comments of others. I'm out there doing this stuff to earn an honest living, and after a hard days work the last thing I need to read is someone getting on a high horse about the way to do it "properly". 

I find it interesting that the guys that dissapprove are not prepared to explain anything, instead just prefer to refer to my work as "silly" or "unsafe" etc _ I can only say that if it were ACTUALLY (like in the real working world) unsafe i wouldnt be here writing this reply now would I ?
>>> Thank you for replying with insight and good intent.
The rest can't justify what they are talking about, and are therefore not really contributing to the shared knowledge, which after all is what this forum is for, no ?

These are the Spurs I use, which I find very, very good.



Which just goes to show that different approaches can produce good results, and in fact is what leads to progression within a field.

peace

GF
==

[bill m]

Forrest277, I don't think anyone said your lanyard / sling is not strong. What we are saying is that it DOES NOT appear to be SAFE. What are the torque specs for that clamp when using it on synthetic rope? I can't find numbers anywhere. How do you know it is tight enough so it does not slip but not so tight that it starts crushing the rope fibers when it is loaded.

OK Forrest277 Why won't you answer my question? You keep spouting off about being safe but have no industry specs to back up what you are doing, just what you "think" is safe.

[Forrest277]

Forrest277, I don't think anyone said your lanyard / sling is not strong. What we are saying is that it DOES NOT appear to be SAFE. What are the torque specs for that clamp when using it on synthetic rope? I can't find numbers anywhere. How do you know it is tight enough so it does not slip but not so tight that it starts crushing the rope fibers when it is loaded.

OK Forrest277 Why won't you answer my question? You keep spouting off about being safe but have no industry specs to back up what you are doing, just what you "think" is safe.

Here IS THE LATEST RESEARCH on the use of various methods for terminating poly ropes for the use in the logging industry. Which I think basically settles the argument AND shows that I am not doing something silly.

I suggest you read it and enlighten yourself to the possibilities...  CABLE CLAMPS can be legitimately used >>

http://www.orosha.org/pdf/grants/osu/runninglines.pdf

so there you have it _ they used half the torque 45flb (on poly rope) vs the 90flb (recommended by the manufacturer for wire rope).

GF
==

[Forrest277]

I really like how you use cable clamps to secure your rope together on your lanyard(joking of course).  You can have the strongest rope in the world but the fact of how you connect them means it all.

My ten years combined climbing experience, from being head climber for my business, foreman and lead for another company, and contract climbing for numerous other companies to this day must not be enough to make reccomendations about unsafe work practices.

If you are going to make sweeping statements about my work practices you had better be sure that you are actually up to date ... here is a quote taken directly from research on the matter.



and here is the FULL paper for you to read.

http://www.orosha.org/pdf/grants/osu/runninglines.pdf

here are some summary statistics...



GF
==

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Well documented and well presented GF.  This is the kind of work, (and research) that keeps the field of high angle rigging, (in all it's forms,) ever progressing and improving.  The more encompassing you skill sets, the better technician you will become, no matter where you apply your skills, be it in the mountains, or in the Arborist trade. Well done...

[bill m]

This is a research paper not a directive from a governing body that sets minimum standards for work site safety. All of the testing was done with Samson Rope Technologies Amsteel Blue 12 strand braided rope not the twisted strand type of rope you are using. It also is directed at logging operations. Nowhere in this research did it address using cable clamps on synthetic rope used on life lines which is what you are doing. I suggest you read it completely as I did, in particular page number 67

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Bill M.,

This is a typical "study sheet" sometimes call a "blue report," or "tech report," which is often, and in this case sanctioned by OSHA. You don't get more authoritative than OSHA, and since I have both fought, and sat on OSHA boards, I think I would know.  There is no centralized, internationally sanctioned entity, private, governmental, or NGO that oversees everything in the world of rigging and climbing.  You asked for documentation and he (GF) provide an excellent example, and I have cited literature you could read, (there is others out there if you look for it.) 

If you don't like cable clamps, so be it.  It you don't want to use them, that is fine, and understandable.  However, to keep stating arguments even after you have had reference literature cited, and now a definitive study provided, and participated on by OSHA, and several PhD types, I'm not sure what else you could get, with out finding your own private research into "problems with cable clamps," which I actually did a search for because of this post thread, and found nothing definitive.

I'm not sure how your copy came out, but my page 67 is nothing but part of the source documents and cited literature, for the study.  I found no statement, dialogue or statistics.  Could you quote the section you are referencing that you find germane to this topic, and important to your thoughts about cable clamps?

In closing, I would remind you that each rope type has certain characteristics, and some type do not actually tie well, if at all, such as the one in the study, so splices and mechanical fasteners are the only method that are appropriate, which I stated earlier in this post thread.

[Jeff]

I am not liking the tone I am beginning to see in some of these posts. Not one bit.  Keep it friendly and informative, or I'll shut it down.  Forest277, I'm not picking on you, and it could possibly be a cultural difference that influences my observations, but it is mostly your posts where I am getting the sense of attitude from.

[Forrest277]

I am not liking the tone I am beginning to see in some of these posts. Not one bit.  Keep it friendly and informative, or I'll shut it down.  Forest277, I'm not picking on you, and it could possibly be a cultural difference that influences my observations, but it is mostly your posts where I am getting the sense of attitude from.

Ok Jeff _ I'm only sticking up for my corner when it was others that branded my work practices as "silly", " unsafe" and "bad example". 

Like I tried to explain _ I'm only here to share what I imagined would be useful to other workers.

  After all the comments about my flippin' clamps I did find a useful paper on the subject_which validates my use of them as an acceptable, if "not pretty", method...

At the end of the day I have 24 years climbing experience on rock and wood, without incident, and if that doesn't stand for something I don't know what will.  Furthermore, I'm out there working with my gear, and after all that's whats matters most to me.

The joy of the internet is the international nature of contributions _ if the differences are so great that people find it hard to comprend other approaches, then we are in a pickle ! lol

GF
==

[bill m]

Nowhere in this research did it address using cable clamps on synthetic rope used on life lines which is what you are doing.

This is the point I am trying to stress. Forrest277, In your post with the picture of the lanyard with the cable clamps if you had included a disclaimer as to something like " Don't try this unless you have the knowledge and training in fabricating this type of rigging." this thread would not have taken the path that it did. As for experience I have been climbing and rigging almost longer then you have been alive.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Bill M.

You know what, you are correct, I personally stand in error.  Your point is quite valid.  I am very careful when giving advice about timber frames, that the builder is assuming full responsibility for the frame they cut, and really should seek advice from a qualified P.E.. 

Your point is duly noted and acknowledged.  It is easy to get into a debate such as this, amongst ourselves, knowing to the greater degree, no matter how we may "ruffel each others feathers,"  that we are speaking to another professional.  What was not accounted for was the novice reader.

I did stress qualifications and required skill sets, but not as succinctly as you just did.  That should have been the opening statement with something as potentially dangerous as climbing and rigging.  Thank you much for bringing it to the front of the conversation.  I will make an asserted effort to always do just that when commenting on this subject from now on.  Well done.

Regards,

jay

[brendonv]

Exactly.

I just speak with fear that a newbie will take what you say and go up a tree thinking it is the "right way".  I personally know a guy who decided having spurs and a saddle made him a tree expert and now he is dead from a fall that could have been prevented if correct steps were taken.  It goes well beyond your clamped lanyard, nothing against you, just from a guy who climbs more trees than he cares to.

Good luck with your venture.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Brendonv,

I'm glad you came back to the conversation.  I want, at this point to make some other things really clear, as I have now noted that we have had many readers that, are not commenting, just reading that I was not paying attention to.  I would point out that conservatively, you the reader have witnessed a discussion about activities that are potentially life threatening.  This conversation has been academic between a collective mindset of climbers and riggers with a combined experience of over 100 years.

I will also take this opportunity to further stress the dangers of this craft by quickly accounting the number of deaths and severe accidents that I have witness and yes been part of, which goes well over 50 in my lifetime.  This environment is extremely dangerous if you are not well trained and prepared for the consequences.

Among many lead rock climbers, you have not earned your "bones" till you have broken a few and acquired a "fall total" of over 10 miles and a minimum of one fall over 40 feet.  Mine was 120 feet in pendulum and 500 feet total, it cost me much, including being paralyzed from the waist down and working really hard to get back to where I am.  That was the worse helicopter ride of my life. Learn from our discussion, but do not attempt anything here you read about without proper instruction.  Anyone is fallible, even the experts.

[beenthere]

As I mentioned before, make a point for your "belief" and move on.
Trying to "word duel" doesn't change anything, and I don't think wins any "battle" in the end.
Nor does it prove who is smarter in the end.
That is just my opinion, and this has just ended up like a school ground stand off of "Is too " Is not" Is too" Is not"

[Ed_K]

Ok, here go'es. I've been reading on this thread each time you;all post.I'm a logger,I have climbing gear,I hate using it.It's when I can't get a choker around a tree from the roof of the skidder,and I need it higher I climb.I work with wire rope and clamps all the time.I go the my climber's companion book every time I have to climb,I have to have a day when it's quiet and a spotter with me,and most times I'm done for the day when that one tree is down.
So yes there are untrained people reading along with you.All my cabled trees landed where we wanted,but I hate doing it.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Ed_K,

Thanks for the feedback.  I'm just wondering would a throw bag and a length of the new high strength rope that is replacing steel cable, be of use by you in that situation you described.  I know of a few loggers that have switchover, and they are happy not to have to climb anymore.  Would that work for you?  Again, thanks for following along this crooked trail.

Hello Beenthere,

I hear what you are saying, thanks for sharing your opinion.  I don't believe the four of us lost any respect for one another in anyway.  We just need to find the conclusion and position to each be heard, and I believe that has been achieved.

No matter the details of the conversation I would have Bill_M. or Brendonv hold my "belay line" anytime, as I gathered from reading their concepts and conclusion, that in the end,they do the very best to understand and master their craft to it's fullest.  This conversation was just another step forward.

[Forrest277]

Ok, seems like we have made some interesting discoveries, and have alot of mutual respect for each other.

  As I am responsible for this thread I feel that I should try and conclude (for now) for all the readers ...

Like brendon here _ he knows how dangerous this work can be, it is easy to die doing this stuff wrong. The same goes for felling at ground level, I'm sure people here know of tragic incidents just at ground level.

This is where things will get more philosophical... through the years doing many types of extreme actvities, I have learned very well to trust that inner voice that warns you even before you begin to do something potentially dangerous.  Always listen to your gut instinct.

>> If you really feel in your heart that you are capable, and you are able to be 110percent confident in what you are about to do _ then do it and do it well. Do not be afraid as this will be your undoing.

BUT

>> If you feel in your heart that you are incapable, then trust that feeling also, be strong enough to let your ego go and don't do it. Train more and come back another day when you are ready.

Exactly.

I just speak with fear that a newbie will take what you say and go up a tree thinking it is the "right way".  I personally know a guy who decided having spurs and a saddle made him a tree expert and now he is dead from a fall that could have been prevented if correct steps were taken.  It goes well beyond your clamped lanyard, nothing against you, just from a guy who climbs more trees than he cares to.

Good luck with your venture.

thanks man, maybe just maybe, I'm the best partner you have never met ...

[bill m]

Jay C. White Cloud, Thank You for understanding my position on this. I know that what is acceptable in other countries may not be here in the USA. Everyone in the USA doing tree work is bound by the Z133 regulations - no exceptions. So no matter how safe you think it is or what your gut instinct tells you if it is not addressed in the Z133 regulations it is not allowed. Please everyone with whatever you do if there are risks take the time to stop and think about it. Be Safe