WHAT DO YOU CHARGE FOR SAWING?

[rs1626]

THIS QUESTION HAS PROBABLY BEEN ASKED MORE THAN ONCE   BUT WHAT DO YOU CHARGE FOR SAWING 4/4   6/4  8/4  DO YOU CHARGE BY THE HOUR OR BDFT?

[J_T]

These parts .20or.25bf I haven't done any yet .Usuly send them somewhere else .

[Tom]

Yep, been asked a lot.  Right now my price is 20 cents a foot to cut "wood".  I'll cut it into whatever sizes you want. There is no distinction for 4/4 as opposed to 8/4.

If you want me to saw by the hour, it's $55 per hour.

[Wes]

 $50. or more setup depending on distance, and $50.hr.

[Kevin_H.]

Right now we are charging .20 cents a board foot, and a $25.00 set up fee for anything less that 1000 BF.

We scale the logs and use that # to come up the BF for the day.

[ronwood]

Kevin_H,

What scale do you use to measure the board ft? If you happen to have a log that only has 50% of the lumber that is good do you charge the for the whole log?

rs1626  
30 cents bd ft. with a setup fee of $25.00.

Ron

[Kevin_H.]

We use the scribner scale. We were using the doyle but we were giving away too much free sawing.  ;D

If we load the log and saw it we charge the full scale, as I think it takes as long to saw a rotten log as it does to saw a good one.

The same goes for crooked logs, if we put it on the saw and cut it up we charge full scale.

Now if we open the log up and it is no good, and we remove the whole mess from the saw after a cut or two, then we dont charge for that.

Ron, you are just across the creek from me, are you having any problems getting the 30 cents?

[ronwood]

Most of my work comes from one gentleman. Last year I did around 18,000 bd ft. My deal with him is 25 cents per bd ft since he is regular customer. In the metro area I don't seem to have any problems getting 30 cents.

I was out west of St. Louis today lining up a job sawing 60 logs. Quote him 25 cents. He had another sawyer cut some for him last year and they charged 17 cents. Could not get him this year.

Not sure that I would be able to get 30 cents out in the country.

[Kevin_H.]

We have been kinda kicking around raising our custom price to 25 cents per. At this point I dont think it would cause us any loss of customers.

Once in a while we get someone that has been quoted a lower price from someone else, I will typically tell them to contact the other person to set up there sawing.

Right now, part time I have more than enough to do.

[WeeksvilleWoodWorx]

I'd like to add a question. How do you guys that charge a flat bf rate justify to yourselves cutting any thickness for the same price? I'm new at this, in the two weeks I've had my mill I've cut a whack of 4/4 cypress and another of 8/4 pine. I sure could make a lot more money cutting 8/4

[DanG]

Hi, Brian. Welcome, and congrats on the new mill!   8)

I think you'll find, when you get up to speed, that most of your time is spent prepping, loading, and squaring up the log. After that, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference what thickness you're cutting.

[Shamus]

DanG, good point, unless you are milling with a chainsaw, where each cut can take over a minute. Of course then you have to charge > $.75/bdft to get anywhere. The only way I have made it work is to go the 50/50 route for custom milling. I guess that's why I am looking to upgrade!  ;D ;D

danG sawdust...

[KILROY]

Presently .20 per board foot.  In Ohio, you can probably get more depending on how much competition with other customing sawing there is.
 
Like Tom said,you are just cutting wood. Trying to figure out what to charge can be difficult. What is adequate compensation for my time, equipment investment and operating expenses?  Start off on the higher side. It is easier to go down than up.

When you count the finished lumber, count usable wood. Look at it as if you were being charged for that board. If two foot is rotten on the end, do not count it. Strive to cut the best quality of lumber that you can. You are not selling them lumber. There will be defects in the log that you can not saw around, such as cracks,rot,sweep.

Stack the lumber so you can count it. Count the nominal size of the board. 1 1/8 and under is considered a 1 inch board. 1 1/ 8 to 2 inch is a 2 inch board, etc. On the length, count the closest foot. If you cut 2by4, 2by6 or 4by4s for example ask the customer what actual size they would like the board to be,but charge by the nominal size.

If a job has a lot of logs under 8 inches charge more for those logs. If the logs are large you should receive more for the extra time it takes to handle them. If the job is a good one, skip it and just charge a flat rate straight through.  I normally charge a flat rate unless cutting something unusual or time consuming. You can also adjust your rate depending on how well the customer's wife cooks. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Be a little bit flexable and you will have repeat customers.

I have been customing sawing since 1986 and have sawn over a million board foot with Wood-Mizer saws.

[KILROY]

Kevin,

Why don't you just count the lumber? A log scale may not be accurate. Unless you are doing a cost analysis of some kind, I do not understand why you would charge this way.

[WeeksvilleWoodWorx]

DanG,

Thanks for the welcome and reply.

I still can't find the justification, in my mind anyways, for flat bf rate. If we are getting paid to CUT, then I have to make twice as many cuts at 4/4 to get the same bf as 8/4 ??? Plus machine and blade wear. Now I don't think it should be double the money, as you said a lot of the work is prep, but I am thinkin of upping the ante a little bit for anything under 6/4.Just trying to get my rates straight and you guys generally provide DanG good info Maybe everyone is making money at 4/4 and anything thicker is gravy

I have a simular dilema with one of my other ventures, stump grinding. Gots people pricing by the diameter inch. Sounds good $2 an inch right? That means $36 for an 18 inch stump and $72 for a 36 incher. Only one problem, everytime you double the diameter the area quadruples!!!!!! Four times the work for twice the money ???

[Fla._Deadheader]

Brian, what most of the guys are saying, is, the sawing rate IS based on 4/4. When you saw 8/4 it takes just as long to saw, but, the board is heavier and takes longer and more effort to stack, so, you are, in essence, STILL getting the 4/4 rate, by sawing 8/4. A GOOD offbearer can make you more money at 8/4 sawing, IF ya don't wear him out.

  We get .35 bd/ft, no matter what dimension, over 3/4".  That's for my son and I, NO other help wanted.

  We recently re-sawed some 1X 6 stock, and I charged the .35 even though we had to make 2 passes. The customer will be a repeat, so, I figured a little PR at .35 would make both of us happy, and we would get his business later on, on a semi-monthly basis.

[KILROY]

 Fla._Deadheader,

 EXCELLENT explaination!  ;D

 The sawing charge is just an average.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  I would like to ask Kevin H, why do you saw by the log scale ???  Everyone that uses a thin kerf Bandmill gets over run of up to 50% of the log scale, in actual lumber???

  We just flat stack the lumber and measure length X width X thickness ??? Seems to me you ARE giving away way to much ??? All scale sticks are figured using ¼" kerf. 4 boards on a bandmill gives you 1 extra one ???

  Maybe I didn't read your post correctly ???

[WeeksvilleWoodWorx]

Thanks FDH

That was the impression I was getting but nobody came out and said it! It is also my son and I. We have only cut together twice, but Saturday we were cutting at a friends house for the wood and I had a different off bearer a couple of times, man did I miss him. I think we work together very well, anticipating each others moves.

Thanks,

Brian

[Kevin_H.]

There are several reasons we saw by the scale,

First, using the scribner scale we come pretty close to actual BF, on some days we may give away a little but not enough to really make a difference.

When we first started we had a couple of customers that would throw away any board that did'nt make, say 8 feet, If it had a bad spot in it and came up short they didnt want to add it to the tally. Even now that we saw by the scale we still have customers that throw away boards that I would keep. By using the scale, They can pitch any board they want and it makes no difference to the end count.

We would also have customers who would want you to saw a log that was really to far gone, You would spend just as much time sawing this bad log as you would a good one, but again they would throw away much of the boards and you would winde up spending as much time, but only getting half the tally on that log. It goes the same for logs with alot of sweep or crook, it takes just as long or longer to saw this, so why should I take less $ for the same amount of time just because to log didnt make scale.

We on occasion have a saw job where the boards are hauled away and stacked in a shed or barn as the job progressed, by using the scale, I dont care what they do with them once they come off my saw.

By using the scale, a customer can call with the DIB and length and I can get real close to what the job will run.

And last but not least I hate counting boards at the end of the day ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

Kevin, I see your dilemma. Maybe these high dollar folks we saw for don't understand things too good  : :

  I tell them that any board that don't make a clean 8 footer will be figgered on whatever clean it does make. Most will admit that they would probably cut the bad off anyway.

  We also throw in a freebie occasionally. That always makes 'em feel good.

  Ed keeps a lot of stuff in his head and can remember to write it down occasionally. Nobody beats us out of sawn lumber, unless we allow it. : :D :D

  Know whatcha mean about son's making good offbearers, Brian. Don'T forget to let him do same sawin, also. Keeps their interest up and helps with figgerin when and how to turn them logs   ;) ;);D ;D ;D

[oakiemac]

I used to hate counting boards at the end of a job, so I too considered going hourly rate or by log scale. But I learned an extermely easy way to "scale" or count the board footage. You just stack all the lumber in a nice neat stack then measure width in inches minus any gaps between boards, multiply length in feet, divide by 12 then multiply by thickness. This is your board footage for 1 layer, next just count layers and multiply. Takes hardly any time and couldn't be easier.
I think flat bf rates is the most fare to customer and me.

[DR Buck]

I'm still new at this, having only started in February.  But, I've had no problem getting .25 bf for flat sawn and .40 for quarter sawn.  I charge only for finished lumber and the customer "must" provide their own off-bearer, or the price goes up .05 bf.

This pricing must be OK, 'cause I got over 80,000 bf backlog to saw.

[Wes]

 I have charged by the bf , one customer insisted. I charged $50. setup, $25. each move, and .35bf milled lumber.

 When I estamate lumber volume in a log I have found that on an average I am able to mill about 20% over the 1/4" international scale. Does that sound rite or am I looking at this wrong ?

[Minnesota_boy]

I've scaled quite a few logs and then sawed them to see how they would saw out.  I used the Scribner scale and found out the overrun would vary between 20% and 50% with an occasional log going to double scale.  Now I get pithed if I can't saw at least 20% over scale and I start to smile when I get more than 50% over.

[UNCLEBUCK]

Hi everyone, when you take a job sawing is it a handshake to seal the deal or do you have reciept book at the beginning or end of the job? also what about the slabs ? can the sawyer always keep the slabs unless the owner of the logs says different or should that all be in writing before the job begins? thanks ! I think that if I ask about the slabs then the owner of the logs will want them for sure , I burn wood !

[Tom]

So far all my jobs are on handshakes.  I appear, saw the wood that has been prepared (he provides labor) then I count up the good lumber I produced, get paid and leave.  I do leave him  with a receipt.  It is more professional.  You can get receipt books at office equipment stores for very little.  Keeping the carbon copies helps you to keep up with the jobs and the customers names and stuff too.  In time you will be glad that you created the history.  Don't use those little rough paper ones like the resturants use, get a pretty, big one.  That gives you room to write all kinds of neat stuff on your copy when you leave.  Sometimes it's nice to have a record of family names, or specifics about the job that might make him feel more special when you talk to him 2 years from now.

I think you might be missing a bet on the slabs.  Don't let on like you want them. If you price your job at 15 cents a board foot, for example, then say 16 cents a board foot and I remove the slabs.  That price would be almost impossible to turn down.  If you sawed a thousand BF that day, you just got $10 more for gas.

[arj]

I get 35 cents a bd.ft. of cut lumber. If the logs are small, short, crooked, or over 32 inches I charge by the hour. $32.50. I get to keep the slabs, I`d rather not, I also burn wood , but get over run.

[ARKANSAWYER]

I get $0.20 bdft or $40 an hour to saw.  $10 to show up local plus more for long trips and $10 to move once there.  $20 for blades ruined on junk in logs and $0.03 more if I sticker the lumber.  My contract states I get paid for all lumber sawn.  Crapy logs make crapy lumber but it all cost the same.  If I saw a log that is 8 ft long but hollow for most of the butt I charge as if every board is 8 ft long.  Knowing this most will buck off the crap and I do not have to mess with it.  If a log is bad and I saw it up after warning them I get paid the same as if it was all FAS.  If the bulk of the logs are under 10 inches then I just saw by the hour.
  I know that I can saw 200 to 250 bdft an hour so if their logs keep me from doing it, that is where the hour rate comes from.
  I saw full time and do about 300,000 bdft a year and have to keep track of these things.  I have tickets printed up so as I look professinable as possible.

  Like Tom I keep a record of folks and sawing done.  I have a note book in the truck that I keep stuff in.  It makes folks feel good that you remember their dogs name or some other tid bit of info.
  As for sawing larger stuff there is the handling of it and  often more waste since you are after a target board then what the log can best produce.  I have made 4 cuts to get a 4x10 from a log that would have squared up to 12 x 12 and have some heavy slabs.  But that is all they wanted. ???
ARKANSAWYER

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Not being familiar with the Scribner scale, we use the International ¼" kerf scale. It gives a tad more footage than the Doyle.

  Yesterday we sawed 4 Cypress logs. Ed scaled them, for fun, and came up with 420 feet. After sawing, we ended up with 523 feet. Probably had 60 feet of bad stuff, (holes with mud and roots, pieces of Pecky breaking off the sides of boards, short pieces), so we still got 20% over-run.

100 bd/ft at .20 still equals $20.00 ??? That's $200.00 /Mbdft.

  Still can't see Kevins way as making the full amount of coin for the days sawing, unless the Scribner allows for thin kerf ???

[FeltzE]

We cut for .175 /bd ft or $40/hr. I get $20 per blade damaged for tramp metal and have a $100 minimum for on site sawing these days. Some of our neighboring saws are sawing for .15/ft so it's hard to get the price up like in other areas.

We lost our ability to advertise in the local state run ag paper so we have had a down turn in sawing this past year. But it's ok as my full time job has kept me busy.

We tally at the end of the job 4/4 and under qualifies as 1 inch for the tally everything else tallys actual thickness, 5/4 for example counts as 1.25 /sq ft. All lumber cut is tallied except flitch and stickers I will run stickers for free out of their flitch and take time to explain how to and not to stack lumber for proper drying.

Eric

[Tom]

Good man, Eric.  That's good prices, good approaches and bless you for thinking of your customers.  That kind of attention to customers is worth a lot more than your ag paper.  ;D

[Kevin_H.]

harold, the International and Scribner run pretty close together...Depending on the log size like a 20" log 8' long will scale 135 on the international and 140 on the scribner.

That same 20" log but 16' long will scale 290 on international but only 280 on scribner. Seems like the two scales will cross each other depending on the size and length on the log.

We saw on average about 1000 bf  a day when we do a custom job, so if we have a 20% over run we are giving away 20 bucks on the job. But if you through a couple of crooked logs on the saw and they produce under scale because of the bend they have, we still make scale.

Another bonus is not have to argue with the customer about weither or not the board is "usable" They know that if the boards fall apart as they come off the saw, we still charge scale.

If we dont get blown away tonite we have a small saw job tomorrow, we will run the #'s bolth ways and see what we come up with.

I'm all for making more money ;D

On another note, how do the rest of you charge for damaged blades? Do you charge the $ for the damaged blades if you hit any metal or do you only charge if you think the band is too far damaged to be resharpened and set again?

[Tom]

I don't charge for 'wear and tear", Kevin.  I charge for the blade if something in the log damages it.  I tell the customer $20 per damaged blade.  I'll try to continue using the blade if I can and If he agrees so as to not charge another $20 against the same blade.

I may forgive all or part of the blade damage debt at the end of the job.  Sometimes I'll ruin one blade and end up sawing 20 or 30 thousand feet for the man.  That kinda makes it nit-picking I think.  I'll still put it on the bill and show the discount down to $5 or zero.  That way it at least gets some advertising mileage.

[Minnesota_boy]

Yesterday I sawed a white spruce log, 16 feet long and 21 inches at the top end.  International 1/4" scaled it at 290 bd-ft and Scribner scaled it at 300.  I counted the boards it produced (all 2 inch) and they scaled at 400 bd-ft.  I could have gotten a couple more 8' long inch boards, but they would have been of low quality so I just slabbed a little heavy.

These spruce were cut just over a year ago and have been in a stack since then.  They are so tough that I have trouble sawing more than one log per blade and sometimes I have to change blades in the middle of the log.  I wish I could have just said NO! but it's for a close neighbor.  Even with a freshly sharpened blade, the opening cut will usually have some waves as the blade hits the tough knots.  :(

[Oregon_Sawyer]

I cut mostly softwoods.  We scale Schribner for logs around this area.

I charge $100 move-in.  $20 for tramp metal.  2 in or bigger material is quote at .24 bd ft.  I give a .02 discount for 5,000 and another .02 if the job is over 10,000.

Small logs, special cuts, Oversize logs and small quantitys of hardwood at $70.00 hr.

The job I am doing next weekend my son will go with me but I won't charge extra for him.  ( Usually I would)

If they bring the logs to me I am charging .20 bd ft.

If someone wants to do it cheaper they usually know what their work is worth.

Loren

[Nose_Full_of_Dust]

Here in West "By God" Virginia, we are charging .18 per BF with a min of 1000 bf. Typically, our jobs are 3,000 to 12,000 BF and the 1,000 is of little concern.  We also charge for any blade that is ruined due to imbedded metal (hence, a nice ole nail.)  If we cannot resharpen the blade, the Customer buys it for $23.00, unless it just received its last sharpening. We then "through in" the free blade and thank the customer for the work.
  We also scale our logs and DO NOT waste our time counting boards, etc...  Way to much time invloved and since we scale, the Customer usually ends up with more lumber than we charge.  If we have a customer that thinks we are tricking him into paying more than he should, we go to the lumber pile and count the whole stack, recalculate the charge per BF and then ask which he would prefer to pay????  Obviously, our scaled charge then becomes a real value.
  Lastly, we do not vary our pricing for 4/4, 6/4, 8/4, or even 16/4 or 32/4.  The price is the same since the set up is still the same, the work gets heavier, etc...  It's just the way we do it and very rarely have an issue with the customer.  We just finished a 13,000 bf job that was nearly all 16/4 to 32/4 in 12 to 18 foot lengths for a new post and beam house. The customer was ultra happy since we went the extra mile to assure squareness and extra beauty in the lumber produced.  The check cleared the bank without any problems and the customer wants us to come back and see the finished house. .18 for a bf at any width works for us.

[Norwiscutter]

I am just starting up here and figure that .30 B/F is a fair rate for me and my customers.  Already am loaded with logs without enough time to cut em.  

What about when you sell lumber for retail. Do you all generally just figure in your milling rate with what you pay the logger, or do you grade, seperate, KD and charge accordingly?  

Eric, wish everyday that I was still living down by you.  Miss the weather.  ;)

[Tobacco Plug]

I give potential customers a flyer with the following on it for their information and to prevent any misunderstandings.  Sometimes I wonder if it frightens off customers, though.

LEWIS C. LAWRENCE
ON-SITE CUSTOM SAWMILL
PO BOX
SANFORD, NC 27330
(919) xxx-xxxx

GENERAL INFORMATION, TERMS AND CONDITIONS:
1.      Fee for sawing most lumber is $180 per thousand board feet, based on lumber actually sawn, not what the log scales.  A board foot equals 1 inch X 1 inch X 1 foot.  If boards less than 1 inch thick are requested, they still count as 1 inch.  Lumber yield is typically 1¼ times typical estimated log rule or log scale.
2.      An hourly rate of $38.00 is charged for sawing short logs (less than 10 feet), very small logs (less than 8 inch diameter at small end), re-sawing boards or cants, quartersawing lumber, or other difficult sawing situations.
3.      A travel fee may be charged if logs are more than 30 miles from Sanford, NC.
4.      The wood owner must provide at least one worker (two if logs are very large) to remove slabs, off-bear lumber from sawmill, and help move logs.  If wood owner does not provide worker, fee for sawing is $48.00 per hour.
5.      Minimum charge is $100.00.
6.      Logs must be free from nails or other hardware.  A charge of $ 25.00 per occurrence will be assessed for striking foreign objects.
7.      The sawmill will cut logs from 3 to 21 feet in length.
8.      Drug or alcohol use by persons involved with the operation will not be permitted.
9.      The wood owner is responsible for all persons in the immediate area of the sawing operation.  The wood owner is also responsible for supplying safety equipment for himself and his workers.  Hearing protection is recommended.
10.      Please stack your logs in one pile.  A charge of $25.00 will be assessed each time the sawmill is moved after the initial setup.
11.      The sawing location should be relatively flat and in an accessible area with enough cleared space to allow for easy movement of the sawmill and logs.  Logs must be piled in such a manner to allow easy rolling of logs right onto sawmill; otherwise, hourly rate applies.
12.      Lumber shall be stacked close by the sawmill to speed off bearing; otherwise, hourly rate applies.

Now, having given the customer this flyer, I let him know that a a couple of small logs will not disqualify him from the 18 cent rate. I list that requirement to stop people who have a pile of pine bolts eight feet long and six or eight inches on the small end (but no larger!) who say that they want me to cut a 2X4 out of it for a stud.  I can't make a profit on those logs  if I charge by the board foot.  I usually don't charge the travel fee, but with the recent jump in the price of gasoline, I may have to.  My charge for hitting tramp metal is based on the fact that even if it doesn't completely ruin a blade, I still must stop sawing and change it, often with great difficulty when the blade is stuck in the log.  However, if I saw a whack of lumber for a man and have hit only one nail, I will not make the charge for this.  If the customer has at least 500 board feet of logs in another location than the main pile, I will not charge the mill relocation fee.  Again, this is just to keep my good nature from being taken advantage of.  Some people will have a couple of logs here and a couple of logs there and want you to set up for each little pile.  Usually customers get enough stickers from the edgings, but I don't mind cutting some at no charge if I think the request is reasonable (say 20-30 minutes maximum of lost time).  As for slabs, I have always operated with the idea that all of the wood products belong to the customer.  Often I will ask what the customer's plans are for the slabs and he will give them to me, though.  I try to see the logs and sawing site before I commit to a job.  At this time I mention to the customer about how to properly stack and air dry lumber.  If they don't know how they will appreciate the information and if they do, they will tell you so.

 Above all,  I let the customer know that I want to be fair to him but also to me and that I want him happy so he will tell his friends and/or call me back for more work.  
 ;)

[Tobacco Plug]

Hey Arkansawyer, I like your form's layout, but couldn't read the column titles.  Any chance you could post a larger view?

[Preston]

Well we charge  them by the bd. ft. and what ever we get out of the log is what we charge we scale it in the lumber not in the log! We also tell them it will be extra and may they might have to buy a band if we hit any hardware! We charge .30 a bd.ft.