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Opinion on non-oem parts

Started by KyTreeFarmer, May 19, 2013, 11:16:22 PM

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KyTreeFarmer

I did the cardinal sin and loaned out my 024 Stihl. Needless to say I was very disgruntled when it came home seized up. Was just wondering if anyone has any luck using the non-oem piston and cylinder kits found on e-bay. I am not sure its worth it putting so much money into a 20+ year old saw. My dealer has about convinced me but I really like my 024 and would like to put it back to work without spending the price for a new saw on parts. Have not torn it down yet but looking through the exhaust port the piston looks scored pretty badly. This would be my first chainsaw rebuild so go easy on me guys. Thanks for your opinions.
KTF
Woodmizer LT15G
Belsaw from Sears & Roebucks
8N Ford
87 Kubota 2550 W/FEL

mad murdock

I can't speak specifically to the 024, but IMO, most older saws are worth rebuilding, as the newer ones I don't think are built as well.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

Ianab

I see that Baileys will sell you an after market piston for that saw for $29. 50 / 50 chance that's all it needs. Once you take it apart you can clean up the bore and see how it looks.

The saw shop is right that paying for new Stihl parts + labour is more than the saw is worth. But if you can get it going for less than ~$100, and a Saturday afternoon, it may be worth it.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

joe_indi

Quote from: KyTreeFarmer on May 19, 2013, 11:16:22 PM
-----------Have not torn it down yet but looking through the exhaust port the piston looks scored pretty badly. --------

KTF, all things seen through the exhaust port might not be that bad actually.
Lift the cylinder carefully.Wipe the front side of the piston with a solvent and probably 50% of those scour marks would prove to be negligible. If the rings are stuck in their grooves, remove the piston and try and get those rings off the piston without breaking them.
If the rings are stuck at the score marks, use some kerosene or diesel (no gasoline) to wash off ant debris in the grooves. Then, use a wooden hammer to tap a ring at on end. When the ring moves slightly out of the groove on one side, wet it with kerosene/diesel and tap it down so that the ring kind of 'see-saws' in the groove.
Once it does this a bit freely, try pressing the ends of the ring outwards, as if you are trying to expand it. Do the pressing off and on and that ring will pop out of the groove.
Dont mix up the upper ring and lower ring.
Use a bit of fine emery to lightly smoothen the scour marks on the piston.
Use a sharp knife to carefully remove the burrs on the grooves.
Use a file to scrape off the aluminum sticking on the rings.
Clean up and dry the piston and rings.
Run a ring's outer edge in the groove in the area of the scour marks.The ring should move freely without getting stuck.
Once you have done all that, check out the scouring on the cylinder walls.You can safely use different grades of emery (rough first) to get rid of the sticking aluminum. Once the cylinder is as smooth as you can get it, check your effort by dropping the piston into the cylinder (without the rings). If the piston drops in without getting stuck, close the plug hole and do it again.Now it should drop in a bit slower, which means you got some compression.
Clean up the cylinder and piston and apply a light coating of grease (yes, grease) in any existing scratch marks.
Rinse the crankcase to get rid of any fine metal powder (more like fine black paste).
Refit the piston. Now, install the rings.
The one which was in the upper groove earlier should go into the lower groove now and vice versa
This will ensure that the scratch marks on the rings move away from those on the cylinder, thus giving the engine some badly needed extra compression to start.
Okay, now you reassemble everything.
But, do not try to start it yet.
Find the original cause for that piston seizing.
Blocked pickup body (if it is blocked change it)
Wrongly adjusted carb screws  Set the screws to standard setting and turn in the Idle screw by a full turn)
Fuel with no oil mixed in(Empty out the tank and refill with fresh fuel with some extra oil in it.)
With the spark plug out and switch in off position, drop 2 capfuls of fuel down the carb.
Depress the throttle and pull on the starter till the fuel comes out of the plug hole, probably as a fine vapor.
Turn the saw upside down and pull the starter a couple more time (throttle depressed)
Fit the spark plug, move the master switch to position 3 (fast idle) and try to start it.
If things go well, it should start on the first or second attempt.
If it starts, I thing you have saved your saw from some heavy expenditure!
Do not over rev , allow the piston to seat.
You might have to run it in like a new saw.

Good Luck
Joe



ladylake


Most times the cylinder can be saved, I'd get a new meteor piston as they have good quality unlike some aftermarket ones.    steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

NCFarmboy

+1 on the Meteor piston.  Meteor is the best AM brand comes with OEM quality Caber rings.  You could look for a good used 026 piston and cylinder.  Bolts right on.  The only problem is the cylinder cover on ths mod.  The 026 cyl. has vertical fins on top the 024 is flat.  Can get 026 cyl. cover or grind the fins off. 
Shep
Lots & Lots of Saws

sharkey

Excellent repair write up Joe. 

Just wanted to add; You will need some acid (muratic/brick cleaner) or you can use 'works' toilet bowel cleaner to dissolve the aluminum off the cylinder.  The acid will turn a light green on the q-tip showing when there is a reaction to the aluminum. 

Use a shot glass, less than half full, to hold the acid and dab it onto the smeared aluminum that is deposited itself onto the cylinder with a q-tip.  Wait 5 minutes and rinse it out with clear water. 

Before you start examine the area above the exhaust on the combustion chamber side.  If there are deep grooves through the plating, you will need a new cylinder.  The reason is the acid will get between the plating and the aluminum cylinder and pull it off.  I would go with the Baileys kit if I needed a new one. 




     

Al_Smith

If you use any abrasive on the cylinder use something like 3M Scotch brite .Resist the temptation to use a flap wheel .

Some will say the patented hard nickle alloy plating is resistant to abrasive but that is handling the truth carelessly because a flap wheel will go right through it .

Meteor sold by Baileys and others is a good choice .I personally reuse the OEM Circlips .The OEM are slightly thinner and IMO seat better .

KyTreeFarmer

Thanks guys for all the great advice. With all this info I have to at least give it a try. I won't be able to start on it for about a week(helping my son move outta state) but now I feel confident it's worth doing. I will update soon as its torn down and I'm sure I will have lots more questions, especially about what to look for as to why it went south in the first place. Oh yeah, the saw was in pretty good shape before I loaned it out. Used it for clean up around the farm and some firewood cutting,not as an every day saw.
KTF
Woodmizer LT15G
Belsaw from Sears & Roebucks
8N Ford
87 Kubota 2550 W/FEL

joe_indi

Quote from: sharkey on May 20, 2013, 02:02:48 PM
------- You will need some acid (muratic/brick cleaner) ---------
--- If there are deep grooves through the plating, you will need a new cylinder.  The reason is the acid will get between the plating and the aluminum cylinder and pull it off--------
     
Precisely, why I adviced the slower but safer 'emery method'
If I use muratic acid, I neutralize the acid by leaving the cylinder in a solution of baking soda for 5 - 10 minutes.
Joe

Al_Smith

A comment on the little saw .

Last fall I picked one up from a dealers dead pile .It had a slightly scalded piston but it was from the highly restrictive muffler of which on that model there were three different exhausts .

I reworked the exhaust ,retuned the carb and it works wonderfull .Never even tore the engine down .So in all it might not have been a thing the person did to it to cause the failure.

I personally think they are neat little saws,light as a feather . Fact I ran mine quite a bit and even after long runs it did not run out lean so the exhaust had to be the problem .Excepting of course if it were set lean or the mix was ran thin on oil ratio which that I don't know .

KyTreeFarmer

Thanks for the comments and precautions on using acid to clean the cylinder. I would not have thought of that. Really curious now to see just how bad the damage is. A little history on the saw. Couple years ago it got hard to start. My saw shop fixed it, can't remember now what the fix was. No other problem except very slight leak around gas cap gasket. When my buddy took the saw I sent my gas mix with it. Now what I was told afterwards is that his son was using the saw, with my gas in it, cutting an18 inch pine. I assume the saw was laid over on the side. Was told it started leaking gas "a lot" so they just shut it down. When I got it back could barely pull start rope and it made squeaking noise. Took it to dealer pulled muffler and dealer said it was toast. He told me it
was probably gas mix wrong or over revved and blown case seal causing lean mix.
Thanks again guys.
KTF
Woodmizer LT15G
Belsaw from Sears & Roebucks
8N Ford
87 Kubota 2550 W/FEL

CTYank

Al,
A "highly restricted exhaust" on a 2-stroke will strangle airflow. Exhaust scavenging depends on the pressure pulse from opening exh. port to expel exhaust. For example, clogging up a spark-arrester screen can make some stihls (reportedly) hard to get off-idle.

If exhaust doesn't leave, kinda hard to get fuel & air in, no? 'Taint no 4-stroke.

Probable running lean- many possible causes for that.

KTF, those stories don't pass the "sniff test". Do NOT lend saws. Not one you need.
'72 blue Homelite 150
Echo 315, SRM-200DA
Poulan 2400, PP5020, PP4218
RedMax GZ4000, "Mac" 35 cc, Dolmar PS-6100
Husqy 576XP-AT
Tanaka 260 PF Polesaw, TBC-270PFD, ECS-3351B
Mix of mauls
Morso 7110

KyTreeFarmer

Quote from: CTYank on May 21, 2013, 10:45:34 AM


KTF, those stories don't pass the "sniff test". Do NOT lend saws. Not one you need.
[/quote

CTYank, I knew better but he is a good friend in need and I thought "he" would be using the saw.  My dealer says that people who need a chainsaw already have one...makes sense.
KTF
Woodmizer LT15G
Belsaw from Sears & Roebucks
8N Ford
87 Kubota 2550 W/FEL

mad murdock

get a wild thing from a garage sale for 10 bucks to have as your "loaner" saw.  If anyone asks to borrow a saw, after they use a cheapo once or twice, and have to frustrate themselves thoroughly, mebbe it will cure them and they will break down, stop being cheap and buy a good saw of their own :) At least it is worth a try, and you won't be loaning out your "good" tools ;)
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

Ianab

I'd hazard a guess that it split a fuel line. Not unusual for an older saw. An inexperienced user wouldn't notice the saw running lean, and cooked it.  :(

If it had happened while you were running it, you would notice something wrong, and shut down and check out the problem while it was still an easy fix.

But check that area if you are rebuilding the saw. Probably a good idea to replace those parts anyway. If they haven't failed, they are probably due to.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Al_Smith

Quote from: CTYank on May 21, 2013, 10:45:34 AM
Al,
A "highly restricted exhaust" on a 2-stroke will strangle airflow. Exhaust scavenging depends on the pressure pulse from opening exh. port to expel exhaust. For example, clogging up a spark-arrester screen can make some stihls (reportedly) hard to get off-idle.


Thank you for that explaination but I think I'm above average in my learning curve about how port loop scavanging on a two cycle engine works .

The only "pressure pulse " type of exhaust I've ever seen were on motorcycles or snowmobiles with tuned pipes .They also call it a variable port exhaust system or power valve.That type doesn't work well on a chainsaw although some early McCullochs' tried it without success .

Al_Smith

Quote from: CTYank on May 21, 2013, 10:45:34 AM
If exhaust doesn't leave, kinda hard to get fuel & air in, no? 'Taint no 4-stroke.

  .
From my limit knowledge of the internal combustion engine a restrictive exhaust also affects a 4 cycle engine .It not so I would think they might install quiet mufflers from Midas on a Mustang GT with over 500 HP but they don't .

My references sir were towards my personal Stihl 024 which in fact did experiance a slightly chared piston as a result of a restrictive muffler .If not I should have thought with as much as I've used it it certainly would have died on the vine .

There's a little tuning secret Yank called "reading the plug " you might Google it if you care to argue about it .My plug in case you wondered is a light brown color ,not white as would indicate an air leak in the circles I hang out with .. < space two periods  ;D

Al_Smith

Quote from: KyTreeFarmer on May 21, 2013, 10:39:12 AM
I assume the saw was laid over on the side. Was told it started leaking gas "a lot" so they just shut it down.
KTF
That tells the tale .The 024-026-034 and 036 have a clip on fuel tank vent .If for some reason it leaks it would be when the saw is tilted towards the flywheel side .

As such if the saw were running full tilt and the fuel pick up became exposed above the level of the leaking fuel it would have the same effect as a leaking seal and would lean out the fuel the engine is using .

If the tank vent were working properly  and it had fuel in the tank you could turn the saw upside down and it would still run correctly .

The whole thing was just series of bad luck which can happen .

bandmiller2

Years ago I put an after market piston, pin and rings [Baileys] in a flat wore out husky 365.Got seals and bearings from a supply house, still my go to saw.After market is the only way to make older saws worth the rebuild,OEM stuff is priced to sell you a new saw. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Al_Smith

It's not just limited to chainsaws .Nearly every OEM part no matter what it is for is high priced .

KyTreeFarmer

Back home from my road trips and finally caught up on chores enough to get time to work on my 024. Pulled the cylinder off and got the piston off as well. Piston has a lot of deep scratches and haven't been able to get rings off yet without just breaking them. Stuck pretty tight. I have managed to clean the gunk from the cylinder but it has 2 scratches left that are deep enough to hang a fingernail in when rubbing across them. Probably being that deep they go through the plating.  So I am thinking I will be ordering a piston and cylinder kit tomorrow. I haven't looked yet for any possible causes you guys suggested, got all caught up in cleaning the cylinder.
KTF
Woodmizer LT15G
Belsaw from Sears & Roebucks
8N Ford
87 Kubota 2550 W/FEL

KyTreeFarmer

Well I have solved my non-Oem parts quandary. Forum sponsor Chainsawr has hooked me up with a good used Stihl piston and cylinder kit. It should be here next week. I am anxious to see how this turns out. Wish me luck!
KTF
Woodmizer LT15G
Belsaw from Sears & Roebucks
8N Ford
87 Kubota 2550 W/FEL

KyTreeFarmer

A little update for anyone interested. I have a new fuel line and filter, impulse line, gas cap and intake boot put on. Was putting the cylinder on and some how messed up the gasket. Waiting on another to get here. Is there a trick to get that intake boot on? Pretty tough getting my fat fingers in there.
So far I haven't seen anything that looked bad, nothing obvious anyway, but then I might not recognize it. Would a vacuum or pressure test be in order here to check the seals?
Thanks guys
KTF
Woodmizer LT15G
Belsaw from Sears & Roebucks
8N Ford
87 Kubota 2550 W/FEL

Al_Smith

The easiest method to install the boot is first clamp it down on the cylinder then use a string around the carb side to pull it through the hole .

I've got a picture some place .If I find it I'll post it .

Al_Smith

 

    Found it .This is a Stihl 200T but the idea is the same .You just fold a corner of the boot through the hole and walk the string around to work the rest through .Easy as pie .

JohnG28

I didn't think it was too hard to get the intake boot through on my 200t. Just make sure it goes into the correct place to line up for the carb and you're good. You can put a plumbing torch near the intake and see if the engine accelerates to see if it's leaking. If the engine speeds up it's a leaking boot. Don't worry too much, the boot is forgiving and will have a lot of play.
Stihl MS361, 460 & 200T, Jonsered 490, Jonsereds 90, Husky 350 & 142, Homelite XL and Super XL

KyTreeFarmer

Thanks for the string idea Al, and the pic. I guess I was going about it backwards, put the boot in first then tried the cylinder. That's when I messed up the gasket.

JohnG, have seen my Dad squirt lighter fluid on intake manifold before looking for leaks. Same principal I guess. Thanks for the idea and for refreshing my memory of my Dad. Waiting impatiently for new cylinder gasket to get here.
Thanks
KTF
Woodmizer LT15G
Belsaw from Sears & Roebucks
8N Ford
87 Kubota 2550 W/FEL

KyTreeFarmer

Woo Hoo  8) ...got everything back together today and after 5 or 6 pulls it fired right up. Saw idles good,starts easy and revs up quick and seems to have plenty of power.  Just like old times. Hope this is not just beginners luck. I never found anything that seemed like it would have caused the meltdown so I hope I haven't missed something a more experienced person may have found.
Anyway I learned a lot, got some great advice and had fun in the process. Oh yeah, most important lesson.......my saw will never leave home without me again!!
Thanks again to all who offered advice.
KTF
Woodmizer LT15G
Belsaw from Sears & Roebucks
8N Ford
87 Kubota 2550 W/FEL

beenthere

Good to hear of your success.  8)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

CTYank

Quote from: Al_Smith on May 21, 2013, 06:34:12 PM
Quote from: CTYank on May 21, 2013, 10:45:34 AM
Al,
A "highly restricted exhaust" on a 2-stroke will strangle airflow. Exhaust scavenging depends on the pressure pulse from opening exh. port to expel exhaust. For example, clogging up a spark-arrester screen can make some stihls (reportedly) hard to get off-idle.


Thank you for that explaination but I think I'm above average in my learning curve about how port loop scavanging on a two cycle engine works .

The only "pressure pulse " type of exhaust I've ever seen were on motorcycles or snowmobiles with tuned pipes .They also call it a variable port exhaust system or power valve.That type doesn't work well on a chainsaw although some early McCullochs' tried it without success .

You're welcome. But you misunderstand. 4-strokes have a whole stroke for scavenging, with piston as positive-displacement pump. 2-strokes depend totally on the very short pulse of high pressure gas exiting the exhaust port as it's opened.

That's followed by low pressure part of the waveform, which enables idling.

This had nothing to do with the loop.  ::)
'72 blue Homelite 150
Echo 315, SRM-200DA
Poulan 2400, PP5020, PP4218
RedMax GZ4000, "Mac" 35 cc, Dolmar PS-6100
Husqy 576XP-AT
Tanaka 260 PF Polesaw, TBC-270PFD, ECS-3351B
Mix of mauls
Morso 7110

CTYank

Quote from: Al_Smith on May 21, 2013, 06:41:51 PM
Quote from: CTYank on May 21, 2013, 10:45:34 AM
If exhaust doesn't leave, kinda hard to get fuel & air in, no? 'Taint no 4-stroke.

  .
From my limit knowledge of the internal combustion engine a restrictive exhaust also affects a 4 cycle engine .It not so I would think they might install quiet mufflers from Midas on a Mustang GT with over 500 HP but they don't .

My references sir were towards my personal Stihl 024 which in fact did experiance a slightly chared piston as a result of a restrictive muffler .If not I should have thought with as much as I've used it it certainly would have died on the vine .

There's a little tuning secret Yank called "reading the plug " you might Google it if you care to argue about it .My plug in case you wondered is a light brown color ,not white as would indicate an air leak in the circles I hang out with .. < space two periods  ;D

Getting a little patronizing, no? I've been reading plugs longer than you'd ever guess, like with serious little road-racing engines. Still don't like smoke being blown up my nose. What's plug-reading got to do with this?

Your conjecture about throttled exhaust toasting a piston, you're welcome to. But IMHO it's really nonsense. Periods, spaces, whatever.
'72 blue Homelite 150
Echo 315, SRM-200DA
Poulan 2400, PP5020, PP4218
RedMax GZ4000, "Mac" 35 cc, Dolmar PS-6100
Husqy 576XP-AT
Tanaka 260 PF Polesaw, TBC-270PFD, ECS-3351B
Mix of mauls
Morso 7110

Al_Smith

Now let me get this straight here.Are you saying in so many words that a highly baffled chainsaw muffler is better than my idea of a debaffled example?If so what is that theory based on? It's certainly not based on conventional thinking in terms of two cycle theory or practice .

I was refering to reading the plug as one method to determine if the fuel and air mixture is correct but I guess you already knew that by your comments .

Now then exactly what small road racing engines were you refering to?

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