Wanting to get into logging, some questions.

[Rocky]

Hello all,

I am Rocky from southern WV. Due to the declining coal market, I have found myself laid off from being a professional truck driver (self employed).

I have always had a interest in logging since I was young, and since reading this forum I have gained some knowledge on logging with very informational topics. (Read about 40 pages worth so far, and still going).

I am registered along with my uncle and fiance to take the safety classes May 30th and June 12th along with a CPR class to become a certified Timberer.

My question is, is logging still profitable? I have a mini excavator and a skid steer to start with (fully paid for) and would need to rent a Dozer. I am thinking about renting-to-own a John Deere 700j for a few months to see how we actualy do, but the rent is $6000 a month. Financing would be around $3500 per month.

This will be a family ran business and we will be contracting for a local mill. My cousion is a logger and says there is no money to be made in logging now but if I want to get into it for me to just go talk to the local mill owner and he can get us started on some work.

Our plan is to cut trees with Stihl 660 magnum saws and drag them out with the dozer. I know it's not the most conveinent way but I figure it will work for now. Rental of a skidder is $4800 a month.

I own a Kenworth T-800 flat bed that I plan to haul with. Legal GVW is 36,000.

I plan to visit my cousions operation next week, I was suppose to yesterday but one of his employees got injured and we had to put it on hold.

Thank you for your time.

PS: Not looking to get rich or anything, just to make a living.

[beenthere]

Rocky
Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

Hard to say what I'm thinking because you have some great enthusiasm. But listen close to what your cousin who is a logger is telling you.

Others may also chime in here, but am thinking just having to rent so much with large monthly rental payments may be a very high hurdle to overcome when starting out.

Is there any way you can go to work for your cousin or some other logger even for little money just to get more experience what is involved? Cause it sounds like you need some good hard experience to add to your decision. I'm not sure if the logging industry is any healthier than the coal industry right now.

But don't want to discourage you either. Keep gathering information. You have come to a good place here with many experienced members willing to help where they can.  8)

[GATreeGrower]

My 2 cents...you need to know what kind of trees you are cutting and how much they are worth.  If you already do, then good luck to you friend.

[Rocky]

Rocky
Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

Hard to say what I'm thinking because you have some great enthusiasm. But listen close to what your cousin who is a logger is telling you.

Others may also chime in here, but am thinking just having to rent so much with large monthly rental payments may be a very high hurdle to overcome when starting out.

Is there any way you can go to work for your cousin or some other logger even for little money just to get more experience what is involved? Cause it sounds like you need some good hard experience to add to your decision. I'm not sure if the logging industry is any healthier than the coal industry right now.

But don't want to discourage you either. Keep gathering information. You have come to a good place here with many experienced members willing to help where they can.  8)

Thanks for the welcome.

The only thing we realy need to rent is a dozer at this time. We have not decided if we are wanting to rent a skidder or not yet. I agree, this forum is filled with gold, just have to dig to find it  ;D

[beenthere]

My cousion is a logger and says there is no money to be made in logging now but if I want to get into it for me to just go talk to the local mill owner and he can get us started on some work.

What commitment will the local mill owner make to you? When you talked to him, was he encouraging? Or non-committal?

[Rocky]

I have not spoken with them yet. My cousion told me to get my timberers license first and then speak with them along with a couple of other companies my cousion has contracted for.

My cousion is a logger and says there is no money to be made in logging now but if I want to get into it for me to just go talk to the local mill owner and he can get us started on some work.

What commitment will the local mill owner make to you? When you talked to him, was he encouraging? Or non-committal?

[PAFaller]

Id work with someone else first, that you trust, and get a real handle on what they actually make. When you realize that only a handful of guys are probably turning decent profits you may change your mind about cutting timber. And I dont mean making a little money, I mean actually making a good living, paying all the bills, putting money away so they can eventually retire etc. I've come to find its a lot fewer guys than I think, and if it weren't for my wife having a good job I wouldn't stay cutting wood. My time is more valuable elsewhere. I feel I work pretty hard as a contract cutter, and I do a lot of the marketing for the mill to help buy more timber, and despite all that I still feel its a thankless job. I get more respect from my wifes high school students than I do from the guys who depend on me to keep wood in their yard and the sawdust flying. Not saying they dont appreciate it, but over time you get to feeling like you are expendable, and there isnt a mill owner out there who isnt quick to tell you that theres plenty of guys out there with saws and a skidder that would take your place. Not too burst your bubble, and maybe Im just pretty wound up about what seems to be going on with my situation, but its not all its cracked up to be. And its not getting any easier, and I dont see it getting any better on the logging end of things. The rates haven't changed in the last ten plus years, maybe you get a few extra bucks a thousand for a real steep sidehill or a long skid, but it doesnt offset the increased costs. Fuel and parts have tripled as inflation has been thrown in to the mix, so what you take home isnt the same as it was even 5 years ago. Add to that the increased numbers of regulations, permitting to move equipment, roads to bond, insurances to buy etc and the job requires a whole lot more time than you may think. Then you have comp issues should you want to hire help, and if you go that route you'll probably have to weed through 10 guys before you find a decent one. All that to still be a contract logger, who is the first guy to get canned when the economy tanks and the mill slows down.  Now if you can find a patch of timber yourself, and buy it right, then you stand to make a little bit better money, but you probably wont happen in to those right away.
I guess what I am getting at is that if your heart is set on it and you want to try it knock yourself out. I would never tell another man that something cant be done, because I usually end up proven wrong. But with that said, I wont post a BS comment about how being a contract logger is the best job in the world either.

[Rocky]

I appreciate your reply.

My thinking is we may be able to do decent at it as a family run operation. It will be me, my uncle, fiance(free :D) and possibly my father helping. I've ran equipment for a few years now and have that covered; I can also transport it without permits (I can haul the dozer on my own truck along with the excavator and skid steer).

I plan to write a solid business plan and make a final decision once I see my cousions operation. I have alot of talented family along with friends to help when we need it during the start up and hopefully we can make it successful.

I am realy excited to see my cousions operation; hopefully Monday I'll get to see how he does it and get some ideas from him.

Id work with someone else first, that you trust, and get a real handle on what they actually make. When you realize that only a handful of guys are probably turning decent profits you may change your mind about cutting timber. And I dont mean making a little money, I mean actually making a good living, paying all the bills, putting money away so they can eventually retire etc. I've come to find its a lot fewer guys than I think, and if it weren't for my wife having a good job I wouldn't stay cutting wood. My time is more valuable elsewhere. I feel I work pretty hard as a contract cutter, and I do a lot of the marketing for the mill to help buy more timber, and despite all that I still feel its a thankless job. I get more respect from my wifes high school students than I do from the guys who depend on me to keep wood in their yard and the sawdust flying. Not saying they dont appreciate it, but over time you get to feeling like you are expendable, and there isnt a mill owner out there who isnt quick to tell you that theres plenty of guys out there with saws and a skidder that would take your place. Not too burst your bubble, and maybe Im just pretty wound up about what seems to be going on with my situation, but its not all its cracked up to be. And its not getting any easier, and I dont see it getting any better on the logging end of things. The rates haven't changed in the last ten plus years, maybe you get a few extra bucks a thousand for a real steep sidehill or a long skid, but it doesnt offset the increased costs. Fuel and parts have tripled as inflation has been thrown in to the mix, so what you take home isnt the same as it was even 5 years ago. Add to that the increased numbers of regulations, permitting to move equipment, roads to bond, insurances to buy etc and the job requires a whole lot more time than you may think. Then you have comp issues should you want to hire help, and if you go that route you'll probably have to weed through 10 guys before you find a decent one. All that to still be a contract logger, who is the first guy to get canned when the economy tanks and the mill slows down.  Now if you can find a patch of timber yourself, and buy it right, then you stand to make a little bit better money, but you probably wont happen in to those right away.
I guess what I am getting at is that if your heart is set on it and you want to try it knock yourself out. I would never tell another man that something cant be done, because I usually end up proven wrong. But with that said, I wont post a BS comment about how being a contract logger is the best job in the world either.

[logger79]

Just my opinion but do not contract cut unless you cant find your own jobs. Around here contract cutters make what you can make cutting junk. The only upside I see to contract cutting is if they guarantee you plenty of work.

[beenthere]

logger79
Where is "around here" for you?

Would help to stick it in your profile too... 

[Corley5]

Buy/lease/rent a skidder rather than a dozer.  It'll be much better at paying it's own way.

[Rocky]

Buy/lease/rent a skidder rather than a dozer.  It'll be much better at paying it's own way.

A dozer is more suited in the area I'm in to cut roads, etc. I know a skidder would be better but around here you have to have a dozer to build logging roads.

[Kemper]

I would wager a lot & feel pretty good about it, that you will come out much better if you would put bunks on your truck and find someone to do some contract hauling for. Paying that for a dozer and as slow as they are pulling and the fuel, I bet you won't see a bit of profit. Doesn't sound like a set up to utilize all your wood like pulp and such. If your going to cut for the mill, they won't give you good jobs to start off with, so you will need  to maximize all your wood, just not log cuts.

I don't mean to be rude, but this is my full time job, it's not a hobby or a side job. This is how my family makes it and in my opinion it doesn't sound like a good set up, but that's just my two cents.

[Rocky]

Your not being rude at all. My family lived off the coal industry for years, but money is running low these days and we are lookiing to get into something else now. We may look into a skidder as well, I think the cable skidders are cheaper to rent per month than the grapple skidders according to the JD rep.

I would wager a lot & feel pretty good about it, that you will come out much better if you would put bunks on your truck and find someone to do some contract hauling for. Paying that for a dozer and as slow as they are pulling and the fuel, I bet you won't see a bit of profit. Doesn't sound like a set up to utilize all your wood like pulp and such. If your going to cut for the mill, they won't give you good jobs to start off with, so you will need  to maximize all your wood, just not log cuts.

I don't mean to be rude, but this is my full time job, it's not a hobby or a side job. This is how my family makes it and in my opinion it doesn't sound like a good set up, but that's just my two cents.

[thenorthman]

First off, have you ever fell a tree, or skidded one out, or bucked em for grade, limbed em like a barber, pulled miles of cable, set a choker, made a landing, loaded a log?

These are some questions you should ask yourself before you start.  It taint easy, there is allot more to it then getting a contract with a mill, cause now you have to fill that contract, in a timely manner.  Don't mean to be mean just asking hard questions.

Next is rather then renting or even leasing to own, look at used.  There are half a dozen "loggers" in every county with trees, that have equipment they ain't using, it may be broke down, rusty, and bent, but will work, and you can pay for it in full with just a few loads of logs.  Efficiency is nice and all but that payment looming over your head is going to sink ya.

Keeping 4 people busy is going to be a nice fat headache for ya to.

Do you own the saws or do you plan on buying them too?

(Kripes I sound like a jerk...)

You might be better off working with your cousin (only one O sir) for a bit, or like Kemper? suggested and throw some bunks on your existing and hopefully paid for truck and hauling some logs with it. Rather than stacking a mountain of debt on top of an iffy business plan.

[Gary_C]

I plan to write a solid business plan and make a final decision once I see my cousions operation. I have alot of talented family along with friends to help when we need it during the start up and hopefully we can make it successful.

Spend most of the time writing a solid business plan on the marketing of your product and less on the equipment. In this day and age your access to markets is the most inportant aspect to sucess. After you determine the products you can sell and to who, then your equipment needs will be clear, but not before.

And be prepared to be flexible and ready to grab good opportunities to make money. Your goal should always be to make money, not to be a logger and have equipment.

[logger79]

Sorry guys around here is middle Tn.

[log cutter]

Another way to go might be home site development. With your mix of equipment it lends it self more to that line of work. without the extra payment and expenses. The advantage of that is you charge by the hour. and you still get to cut trees down, just a thought.  how ever if your heart is set on being a logger , instead of renting or buying a dozer, I would try to find and old timer who has one and has log before. Hire him to skid for you.  Some of those old boys can teach you a heck of a lot. just my 2 cents.

[Rocky]

Thanks guys for the replies.

To answer some questions:

I have a buddy that owns a stihl shop that will help me out with buying a few saws.

My dad has experience in logging, hence why he'll be working with us.

Our economy is dead when it comes to home development. I own a excavation business, have marketed it for 3 years and have barely got any work. What work I looked at, cut throat competition got it. Most work was friends and relatives.

Our truck and equipment is paid for, and I know it would probaly be better to find a older dozer, but I would rather have a newish model with warranty incase something goes wrong because around here used equipment is wore out and ready for retirement.

[thenorthman]

Well best of luck to ya then.

[barbender]

My .02, I can't see how you can possibly pay a lease on equipment like that and make any money. You're not making money building the roads but putting wood on the landing. Can't you rent a dozer by the hour or day to build your roads, or even hire it out completely? Even if you got an older skidder you'll move way more wood. On the other hand, sometimes guys that don't know any better get into logging and do well cause they do things different than everyone else. But at least give yourself a leg up and get the right equipment. If you already owned the dozer it would be one thing, it could get you rolling.

[Rocky]

The don't rent the dozer out by the day, it's by the month. By the time I go 2 hours (from my house to their shop) to get the machine, bring it to a job site and take it back (another 2 hour trip) thats already a day of rental gone. It's cheaper to rent it by the month.

They finance the machine like this: If you rent it, at $6000, they put 80% of that torward a downpayment, which is $4800. If I can swing that for 3 months, I would have a very nice downpayment and monthly payments on the machine to buy would be around $3000 a month. I am waiting to see what kind of used dozers they get in since the new K models came out. The ones I have these numbers from are $200,000 machines. They sometimes get dozers in for around $150,000 which would be around $1500-2500 a month financing.

Also, if you rent for one month then skip a month, thats $4800 gone because they won't put it as a downpayment on the machine.

I'm thinking if I can rent the machine for 2-3 months, even if its very expensive at first, it will pay off in the end. If not then its a hard business lesson  :D

Also, I realy can't wait to see my cousions operation to get a idea of how they actualy do it. I am pretty good at laying out strategic planning and optimizing for maximum production. (Thats what I've been told anyway in other jobs  ;D)

My .02, I can't see how you can possibly pay a lease on equipment like that and make any money. You're not making money building the roads but putting wood on the landing. Can't you rent a dozer by the hour or day to build your roads, or even hire it out completely? Even if you got an older skidder you'll move way more wood. On the other hand, sometimes guys that don't know any better get into logging and do well cause they do things different than everyone else. But at least give yourself a leg up and get the right equipment. If you already owned the dozer it would be one thing, it could get you rolling.

[PAFaller]

Have you ever heard the saying a penny saved is a penny earned? Thats the point that Im not sure you are getting here. Say you have 20 grand in the bank and can swing that payment on that dozer for three months, you have to realize you arent going to have all of that money back within a couple months. So if you invest what you already have, just to bust your butt to get back to where you started financially, then what did you earn?

The numbers simply dont work in your favor. The rent, lease to own, whatever agreement you have is 6000 a month. Now, lets say you get a really good rate, like 125 per thousand to cut and skid timber. Its not even that high where Im at, but it could be in your area. You need to cut 48 thousand feet of timber just to make that payment. Thats JUST the payment, not the fuel to to run the dozer etc. Then you have basic everyday expenses, like the fuel in the pickup, the saws and the upkeep with that, and you haven't made a penny for yourself yet. In your earlier posts you mentioned being a family operation and having a few people working with you. Are you paying them? Family or not, I dont know anyone who wants to put in the effort to cut timber for free. So lets say you have 2 hired people at ten bucks an hour. 40 hours a week each, thats another 800 a week for your help, or 3200 for the month. Theres another 26 thousand feet you need to cut. And if you are legit and want to take care of your family should they get hurt you should have some type of insurance for them. You could almost double the hourly rate you pay them if you go that route. Even if you dont, youre already up to 75 thousand feet just to pay for a dozer and your help. Still not fuel and expenses, and you still dont have grocery money for yourself yet. And 75 thousand feet just to pay the bills is no joke, you dont go out and whack that in a couple days and laugh all the way to the bank the rest of the month. Heck, til you figure in the expenses you got to cut and skid 1 million feet a year to pay the bills. Even if you pay that dozer off, it wont run forever, so you need to keep putting money away as replacement cost.  Not sure if you can fathom how much timber that is, but its a pile. Like I said, you need to work with someone before you dive in to this, and see what realistic production is. But Ive only been at this 12 years, what do I know.

[Jeff]

Rocky, I do not believe I have ever met, or even know of one successful logger that started out by jumping into the business like it is being proposed in this topic. Not a one.  Every one I know either started working for someone else, and then worked into his own business over time, or started very small, with a little knowledge, a will to work, and a chainsaw and maybe an old paid for truck and skidder. Many times those guys survived for years. Up until they got big enough to start thinking they should borrow money and start making payments on stuff. Then the biggest share of those fail at that point.

I hate to sound like Negative Ned, but if I was a betting man, I'd only give you a one in a hundred odds of making it via the road you are proposing.  Sorry.

[Claybraker]

The don't rent the dozer out by the day, it's by the month. By the time I go 2 hours (from my house to their shop) to get the machine, bring it to a job site and take it back (another 2 hour trip) thats already a day of rental gone.

I don't know much about logging, but I've seen jobs where road building was a seperate operation performed by an independent contractor. And that was with logging crews that had most of their own equipment- feller buncher, a pair of grapple skidders, large knuckle boom, service vehicle, etc.

Frankly, if you are looking to transition from the mining industry to the logging industry, you might be better off in a peripheral support role like that- road building, trucking, etc, instead of becoming a full blown logging contractor.

[Gary_C]

From what you have said on here, I'd say Jeff is being optimistic on your odds of survival. I'd put your odds at close to zero.

If you are looking for an excuse to buy a $150-200,000 piece of equipment that is really unsuited for production and mainly good for doing non productive work, you are most likely doomed. And you are putting the cart before the horse.

As I said before, this logging is about marketing and production, not about equipment purchasing. So talk about your business plan first.

And don't be misled by people on this forum that talk about buying equipment. Most are already in production and are looking to improve on their operation. They already have the marketing in place.

[Corley5]

Is your dozer going to be equipped with a winch and log arch?  Mills don't like logs that have been drug on the ground especially high grade and veneer.  If you're really serious about this get a skidder and hire your dozer work.  Some mills have their own or contract to have access roads and landings built for the production crew.

[keen]

I agree with Jeff, with the price of the equipment you want you are not going to make it. You would be better off buying a used skidder and going from there. You may have to do some wrenching on it, but to make it in the logging industry that's what you have to do. If you plan to start with no experience you need to get your payments as low as possible.
  I would try to find a logger to work under and get a understanding of the business before you dive in. There is money to be made logging, but it takes time to get the understanding of it. Best of luck to you tho

[Banjo picker]

Price replacing the undercarriage for the proposed dozer....I have replaced mine it cost a pretty penny....If I were gona start logging tomorrow full time ....The dozer would stay home, unless I was building a road..no way I would skid with it...Banjo

[Kemper]

 Take your truck and haul logs, you will make money. It's really that simple, it will also give you a chance to see some established logging operations working. I can't see it working any other way, with the info you have provided. I'm in Western KY.

[WH_Conley]

I am in Eastern Kentucky, not too far from you and some what of the same terrain and markets. We have loggers throwing in the towel almost weekly. These are guys that have been at it for years. The outlook is not getting any better. One of the local guys, decent size operation, is cutting by contract now. Five years ago if you had mention contract logging to him he would have laughed at you.

Like everyone has suggested, get your feet wet first.

[logloper]

For $200K you could buy a good used dozer, processor, skidder and loader. Then you would at least be set up to produce enough logs to cover your 3-4 K payment. You are tying up to much money on 1 piece of iron.

[Woodboogah]

Like many others said you should get your feet wet before jumping into things.  That's an awful big payment every month to worry about.  Fuel and insurance are two more expenses to think about.  Have you thought about looking into a skidder outside of your area and have it hauled to you.  There are some decent machines out there if you look.  Good luck to you

[duckslayingpro]

How did it go at yours cousins operation? Still gonna try to log?

[ancjr]

Jeff is right on the money.

[Ron Scott]

Rocky,

Where in southern West Virginia are you located and whose lands do you intend to log on? Road building for logging access and meeting the BMP standards for the logging operation take a lot of training and experience plus $$$ invested.

[bill m]

Hello all,

I am Rocky from southern WV. Due to the declining coal market, I have found myself laid off from being a professional truck driver (self employed).

I'm curious, how do you get laid off if you are self employed?

[CCC4]

Hire your dozer work and buy a good grapple skidder. You will save lots of money hiring dozer work than maintaining one and buying fuel.

From my experience...and this is just my opinion...family run operations are terrible to work for. Always someone in the "family" not doing as much or shows up late. I imagine that the interior of the family business can get pretty jacked up when it comes to dividing up the money in a business socked to it's ears in debt, just trying to make a showing right out of the gate.

You should do like a couple others have suggested...haul for someone else or log with a crew for a while to see if you like it or can handle the work load. Fitt'n to get hot...heat will will break the will of some people. Banks don't give a crap if you are too hot or too tired to work...they want their money.

[Kemper]

Hello all,

I am Rocky from southern WV. Due to the declining coal market, I have found myself laid off from being a professional truck driver (self employed).

I'm curious, how do you get laid off if you are self employed?

Just an educated guess by reading his post, sounds like the coal market slowed down (declining), so there were to many people hauling the limited amount of coal being produced. Even if he owned his own truck, not enough product to move.

[bill m]

Hello all,

I am Rocky from southern WV. Due to the declining coal market, I have found myself laid off from being a professional truck driver (self employed).

I'm curious, how do you get laid off if you are self employed?

Just an educated guess by reading his post, sounds like the coal market slowed down (declining), so there were to many people hauling the limited amount of coal being produced. Even if he owned his own truck, not enough product to move.

That part is pretty obvious. I'm wondering how you lay yourself off. Never heard of such a thing.

[beenthere]

bill
I think he said "I have found myself laid off.."

Maybe just a figure of speech ;)

[bill m]

Ya, must be.

[PAFaller]

This thread died pretty quick. Im not picking on the OP, as I seem to have bigger dreams than I can financially accomplish at this time, but I find many people look to woods work as a great job and only want others opinions when they agree with their own. Maybe he will follow through with a logging operation and prove us all wrong, and I wish him the best of luck with it. I know some of the comments I and others made were certainly bubble bursters, but Id rather be honest with someone than see them risk a lot so much and lose it all. I hope the pointing out of the reality of his situation and the hardships he would occur with such high rental prices did not offend him and drive him away. There is a lot to learn here for sure.

[gwilson]

Rocky, Have you considered being a contract trucker? i know you said you were in the coal hauling industry and i don't know about west Virginia but there are a lot of contract log trucks in SC that are owner operators and seam to do fairly well. And on logging just keep your options open and try not to get in to deep to quick encase you need to back out. Just some thoughts.   

[Corley5]

We scared him away 

[Jeff]

We scared him away 

That's sort of what I figured. Probably didn't actually want our input, but rather reinforcement for his ideas. I just had to be blunt and honest with my posts. 

I hope he succeeds in what ever path he chooses.

[Forrest277]

Rocky, I do not believe I have ever met, or even know of one successful logger that started out by jumping into the business like it is being proposed in this topic. Not a one.  Every one I know either started working for someone else, and then worked into his own business over time, or started very small, with a little knowledge, a will to work, and a chainsaw and maybe an old paid for truck and skidder. Many times those guys survived for years. Up until they got big enough to start thinking they should borrow money and start making payments on stuff. Then the biggest share of those fail at that point.

I hate to sound like Negative Ned, but if I was a betting man, I'd only give you a one in a hundred odds of making it via the road you are proposing.  Sorry.

I agree _ you gotta start small and build up in any business specially in this economic climate... by way of an example, I spent 30 bucks on a pair of hand shears and after a season cutting hedges I paid cash for my chainsaw, now the saw paid for itself in a couple months and I bought my climbing rig (ropes are also expensive) .... one thing leads to another, but ONLY if what you do is sustainable.

thats my twopennth worth

good luck and dont over stretch to begin with.

its a long road and no turnin back !!

GF
==

[clww]

I wish him success, too, but the facts that were pointed out by many on here whom I consider highly knowledgeable are irrefutable. Also, many points from others dealing with equipment, time, and money are as good as gospel IMHO. ;)
Hopefully, he will return.