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An Energy Revolution

Started by Gary_C, May 07, 2013, 10:33:37 AM

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Gary_C

New technology propels 'old energy' boom

From the AP article:

Technology created an energy revolution over the past decade - just not the one we expected.

By now, cars were supposed to be running on fuel made from plant waste or algae - or powered by hydrogen or cheap batteries that burned nothing at all. Electricity would be generated with solar panels and wind turbines. When the sun didn't shine or the wind didn't blow, power would flow out of batteries the size of tractor-trailers.

Fossil fuels? They were going to be expensive and scarce, relics of an earlier, dirtier age.

But in the race to conquer energy technology, Old Energy is winning.


Here is the good news:

The result is an abundance that has put the United States on track to become the world's largest producer of oil and gas in a few years. As domestic production as soared, oil imports have fallen to a 17-year low, the U.S. government reported Thursday.

And the not so good news:

A looming energy crisis has turned into a boom. These additional fossil fuels may pose a more acute threat to the earth's climate. And for renewable energy sources, the sunny forecast of last decade has turned overcast.

Technological advances drove a revolution no one in the energy industry expected. One that is just beginning.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

sharp edge

Witch is geat, 8) the down side is gas at the pump has to be $4.00@ gal. to pay :( for it.

SE
The stroke of a pen is mighter than the stroke of a sword, but we like pictures.
91' escort powered A-14 belsaw, JD 350-c cat with jamer and dray, 12" powermatic planer

Richard PM

Any time that goverment gets involved with a project you can expect delays and over-runs in cost so why would anyone expect that alternative energy, funded largly by gov. subsidies to be any different. I think that the next big change will come from the private sector as it has in the oil industry today. We have to keep in mind that Gov. has to make us think that we need them in order to justify their jobs, in my opinion the less help we ask from them the better. Try your own ideas, you may become the next google or exxon and then what you do with that idea is entirely up to you not some beaurocrat in washington.

Fla._Deadheader


Major problem is, once this "New" discovery of borderline oil and gas pockets start to dwindle, it will MUCH more expensive to restart the Wind-Solar Panel businesses.

Just imagine the inspections and permits required to do simple installs 10 years from now.

When I was doing these things, back in the late 70's early 80's, it was just a matter of showing the Power Co's that the hook ups WERE safe and fully automatic and dependable.

For those that don't know, New York CITY has many batteries in use, to help handle the start up of those massive no window buildings each and every morning. Tractor trailer size battery banks ARE in fact existing and in use. A123 was instrumental in setting up these battery systems.

This is the reason why all buildings are light round the clock. NO energy system alone could handle all those 7-9 AM buildings being powered up.

Just Google it to see for yourselves those massive batteries.

The BIGGEST problem with Alt. energy is the Executives draining off all the profits, and stashing it in their pockets, and claiming as cost over runs, so the stupid Govt., keeps funneling more money to them, until the agency overseeing the money lending starts crying and "Alt. Energy gets another black eye.

I am deeply into this research and what I wrote is INDEED the way things are going-went.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

maple flats

I agree to an extent. I had some solar for a few year, totally off grid and all paid for by me. Then last year I decided to expand from 1480 watts off grid to 6320 watt grid tied and net metered. I can't picture how more restrictions and permits would be possible but knowing the government at all levels I'll bet there will be more. When I started to go grid tied I had no grid power at all. It took from mid May untilearly October to get thru the red tape, permits, approvals and such, before I got the final approval to proceed. Then it took the utility 7 weeks to run their part. Going grid tied I was required to use a "certified solar installer" and he would not order the panels and equipment until the approvals were complete. He however was ready and completed except for the final grid connection when the utility finished. They however did not have a net meter type meter and had to wait 5 days before it was swapped in.
10 years down the road I'll bet things will be worse for anyone installing wind, hydro or solar but somehow it will evolve and survive.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

Solar business is very busy according to my installer. He told me tonight that he has been super busy for about the last 3 years. He said the hardest part now is getting the equipment. He said all the manufacturers are building it as fast as they can and they are behind. He said panels are costing less but the frt brings it right back to near what is was  year ago. He claimed that if solar is slowing he has seen no evidence of it. He did say that maybe areas that are more saturated with solar maybe are slowing, like California, Arizona, Texas and Florida, but not the majority of the US area wise.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

irishcountry

 Have to chime in on this one ...  First i'm no tree hugger but our area of Michigan went from zero oil gas wells to 52 in three years .  Yes a handful of large parcel owners are making money but for the large part this has negatively impact our area that used to be tourism .  We have brine trucks all over the road (tearing them up badly mind you) 24/7 365 days a year .  The company said it would truck the waste to approved deep injection wells now they want to put one 3/4 of a mile away from my home and no not crazy about that !  We've had truck tip over thank god with no load into waterways and rivers.  We had one well explode shaking homes for a mile radius and killing one driver after a week with 70% of his body with 3rd degree burns and then theirs the constant sound of diesel engines and drilling that you can "feel" in your feet .  Oh yes and the flarestacks burning 24/7 lighting the skys in the "country" with purple hues and flashes and yes SMELLS !!!   We had a nearby tank farm have a ventilator problem and since it was cold the gas condensed and was carpeting our whole area , thought we had a gas leak outside of our home but it was faulty valves and ventilators .  Now all this seems great for our "energy independance" but here is the kicker despite having refineries available to take this its being ALL sold right from the sites to Canada as admitted by the company itself !  This is conventional exploration using horizontal bores (even under 2 local lakes) this is not fracking and don't get me started on that one because I have friends in Pennslyvania and those lighting their water on fire are not preforming magic acts and no although its has been "naturally occuring " in history it IS FROM THE FRACKING releasing it into local water supplies !!   Michigan also just announced that Encana of Canada is planning on 500 wells up north using the investment of China's Sincopec energy and guess where that gas is going YUP out of the country ..  Again i'm no tree hugger but lets just say theres alot more to this propaganda of energy independance its all about the highest bidder and $$$$ ..... rant over  :-\

Gary_C

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

irishcountry


irishcountry

  and people are losing their water due to methane migration .  Before you say its natural ect. Yes we have had "natural" place where this has occured but not when someone has lived somewhere for 40 years then a fracking rig moves in to drill nearby and liberates the methane into their water supply !  I have made alot of friends at ground zero in Pennslyvania this has not been going on since the beginning of time this was CAUSED by the fracking and how can they fix it well simple buy them out of their property at 2x the value and continue not .....not a real fix in my book when I love my property .  ----Page 2 section F--http://files.dep.state.pa.us/OilGas/OilGasLandingPageFiles/FinalCO&A121510.pdf


SPIKER

On Gas Fracking it happens that once in a while accidents happen, but out of 100,000 of thousands of times it is rare.   

I'm with the people that say Government will continue to stand in the way of any progress that is not lining their pockets in some way.   the greater the pocket lining the easier the job will be.   In some way it is probably better in those countries that take outright bribes to get things done.   Where in USA it is continue to regulate and require lots of costs in permits and fees and impact studies to the point it costs 3 times as much takes 10 times as long.   They have so much bs involved that a large percentage of these jobs get lost, cut or canceled.  But in the end most of the time the jobs happen & get so technically messed up they end up becoming failures long term due to the levels of required bureaucracy. 

I am all for green energy, even been investor in several companies by buying stock (and gotten burned to by several.)     

I think long term we need to have better Solar and Wind farms built with best materials available.   Problem being the studies say birds are killed by wind mills and only can do this or fish are impacted by dams so cant do that...   While these may be true to some extent we still need to be able to have energy so either from natural green or from Mines or Wells of Hydro-Carbons...   It is always "Not in MY Back Yard" for all the green energies from these Green Types that proclaim to be Environmentalists yet very few actually practice it.   They Drive SUVs covered in bumper stickers to the end of the block to buy a 5 buck Latie then toss the empty styrofoam cup out the window on way to fill up the gas guzzler.


Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

irishcountry

    Well no matter your take on this issue and no matter if someone drives a car ect. they definately do not deserve methane in their water that is absolutely crazy even if its "making jobs" !  Don't worry the epa and deq's are already not doing their jobs or not good enough at least because things that could be prevented are not .  Another matter entirely is if you don't want to participate by signing over your mineral rights in this "free country" they take you to your states supervisor of wells and get a court order to make you sign up again not my definition of a free country and again energy independance hahhahahahhahaha !!!! Not when you have encana of canada doing the work with China's sincopecs money ! The whole thing is a big JOKE !  Has anyones utility bill plummeted ????  Our county is now the biggest produces of oil and gas and we also have the highest prices in the state of Michigan  8)  Here is a compulsory pooling order --page 4 unable to obtain so mineral owner who does not voluntarily participate is subject to compulsory pooling --again in a "free country" where you "own" your mineral rights smells like a sham to me! http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/10-2011_Opinion_and_Order_369274_7.pdf

irishcountry

  The same company that did this so HELL NO not in my backyard ! Sorry call me a nimby thats fine !  Section 4 !--http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/915/1030/94462/

Ianab

The thing about Fracking is that it's been done in some areas where it certainly shouldn't have been.  The geology of what went wrong is pretty well understood, and breaking up the rock structure has allowed hydrocarbons to migrate upward into groundwater aquifers. This is of course a bad thing, and it's given the process a worse reputation that it probably deserves.

It's been done for decades on the local oil and gas fields with zero problems, but we are dealing with a different geology. 3,000+ft of solid sandstone, and minimal groundwater.

This doesn't stop the local greenies getting all up in arms over the process of course. The lack of negative effects are obviously due to a cover up, or not looking hard enough, or the regional council that monitors these things be incompetent. Or any reason OTHER than it's actually safe (in this situation)

End result is that they expend a lot of time, energy and cash fighting it, when there are much better causes they could be supporting? Things that actually would make a difference?

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

irishcountry

  Oh no that is untrue it is just people hooking up their faucets to propane tanks for attention  :D  Yes I suppose should just ignore it because the government is making so much money in royalites in taxes that they just rubber stamp whatever the industry wants to do including drilling under our lakes and at least around here under schools .  This will continue and when a problem arises they will make sure its stays out of media and i've seen that locally they will say a truck turned over even though it carries contaminated brine is just a "commerical carrier not hauling hazardous waste or flammable materials" or when one of the wells blows out and spews across the street and they have to dig out a bunch of dirt a "controlled event" .  Again think what you will but no doubt its contaminting peoples water and to me thats a bunch of crap and I don't hug trees I cut em' and i'm not a communist/socialist/climate change/ hippy either  :)


irishcountry

  Here about 22:00 minutes in is a lady who was all for it and describes her outcome ---http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5QqidiEEHw

Thehardway

Irish,

This is all about which end of the stick you are on and your perspective.  I bought a piece of land that was surrounded by National Forest because I like to hunt, fish and enjoy the forest. I am not a tree hugger and I also like to cut trees and mill lumber, but I was of the thinking that National Forest was just that, a forest.  Well, a month after I bought my property, I was fishing on the river and noticed a guy out removing all the National Forest boundary signs and replacing them with private property signs.  It seems that Georgia Pacific, a local paper mill, had managed to do a land swap with the Feds.  They traded a pine forest they had in another part of the state for the hardwood National Forest land behind my house.  They then cut down a large portion of the trees, dug a large hole, and proceeded to use it as a sludge dump for the paper mill.  I'm not sure what chemicals will leach out of the sludge into the aquifer and the nearby river, but I do know there was little I could do to stop it.  The cancer rate in that area seems quite high.  I have since moved.

When I moved, I bought land that backed up to MeadWestvaco, once again thinking that it would at least remain wooded.  3 years later they clear cut it. Then Last week they posted the 310 acre parcel for sale.  Who knows what it will become.  I wish I had the money to buy it.

I am sure that there was a time in your area that people complained about the noise of logging operations, log trucks tearing up the roads, erosion from logging operations and pollution of the streams, rivers and lakes from log ponds and milling operations.  Then there was probably complaints about developments and houses being built in what was once a peaceful countryside or too much land being cleared for farming and loss of wildlife habitat and hunting grounds.  Too many wells being drilled for water and septic systems being put in, etc. etc.

Point is, we all have to evolve and adapt to the changing times.   

My grandfather was a PA wildcatter around Pleasantville.  He was set to make his fortune when the Great Depression hit and he lost everything becuase the price of oil fell.  When Drake stuck oil in Titusville, he began an oil rush.  The nearby small sleepy farming community of religious Swedes and Scotsmen became a boomtown almost overnight called Pitthole, PA.  It was dirty, muddy, and smelly with houses, hotels, bars and brothels being built as fast as possible.  Some of the wells they brought in were gushers and flowed freely into streams and rivers. Some wells and storage facilities caught fire.  There were brawls and fights and prostitutes and gambling. Millions were made and lost overnight.  Farmers fields were turned into oily muddy messes.  Some made out well and leased or sold there land for a good price.  Others tried to maintain their previous lifestyle and lost everything.   Pitthole, PA is now an official Ghosttown  nothing remains but a small historical marker and a few archeological remains.  Few remember  what Pitthole once was now.  It is once again a rural, sleepy community but the engines of the drilling rigs are once again approaching, this time for shale oil and natural gas.  Marcellus shale has started a whole new rush.

The sad part of this is, fossil fuels like coal, oil, and natural gas, are being used to fire our electrical generations system.  They could easily be replaced by new, clean, efficient nuclear power with much less environmental impact and much less risk to the ecosystem.  Unfortunately, the prospect of getting permits for new nuclear power projects is very unlikely due to the NIMBY attitudes and the lack of comprehensive and meaningful energy policy from our government.

Renewable energy sources are great but they all have their source of environmental problems as well.  Wind is a big issue here in VA and has caused a big stir.  We actually have two environmental groups fighting against wind power.  One claims problems with birds kills and migration pattern interruptions, the other claims that the viewshed will be lost and too much deforestation will occur in ecologically sensitive regions.  They are also trying to get offshore wind power running but the NIMBY;s and the Feds have pretty much buried that idea as well even though it is far enough out that no one would see it.  So the power company's can't use wind, they can't build new nuclear facilities and they are being forced to shut down coal fired plants.  Unfortunately this leaves natural gas and biomass.  Both of these are tough on the land. 

Uranium mining is also a hot topic here and the environmental groups have sent a lot of folks here to stir up emotions and use scare tactics.  What could be a source of good paying jobs for a very depressed area is being wasted and laws being influence by people who don't even live here or have any investment in the community.  It is ignorance and greed that causes the problems, not the technology.
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submarinesailor

TheHardWay - that was very all writen.  Having worked in several areas of the energy industry for many years, I enjoyed your comments and throughts.

Thank you.

Irish - just remember that the thermogenic shale gas would not be there if a impermeabile hard cap of rock wasn't there.  IF, and I say it again, IF best practices are used, like ASTM D18.26, then there is VERY little chance of the thermogenic gas getting into their water.  Now if they don't follow the ASTM and something happens, FIND THE DOG *stuff out of them.  No caps or limits on the finds.  That would be real money out of their pockets forcing them to do it right.  As to the roads and other stuff like that, impact fees just like they do with new homes around here.

Bruce

Thehardway

One more thought concerning fracking.  My dad used to tell me stories about how fracking was done in the early days in Pennsylvania to revitalize oil wells that were slowing down or had stopped producing.  There was a local guy who rode around with a mule and and a wagon.  The wagon had straw, a block of ice, a roll of special multi-strand steel cable, and a healthy supply of nitro-glycerin.  Yes that's correct, Nitro-glycerin.  He used the ice and straw to keep the nitro from exploding while he drove from well to well. (Nitro congeals and becomes non-explosive if kept cold)  A steel vial of nitro glycerin called a torpedo would be affixed to the end of the cable and then very gently lowered into the well to the desired blast depth.  The cable was stretched out across the ground to a "safe" distance. A weight (go devil) dropped on it would initiate a blast that would shatter the nearby rock/shale/sand formation and allow oil to once again flow from nearby pockets without having to drill another hole.  This was then called "shooting" the well.  This procedure was patented by the Roberts company which started a nitroglycerin factory in Titusville to supply the business.  They charged well operators an outrageous sum of money to shoot a well.  This led to the practice of "moonlighting" which makes  what moonshiners and meth lab operators do  look like child's play.  Moonlighters were gutsy fellows (some might say stupid) who for a fee much less than the Robert's company would charge, would shoot a well by manufacturing their own nitroglycerin at night in backyard sheds and then in the cover of darkness execute clandestine well shooting operations.  Dangerous cannot be used to describe the practice. Many were injured or killed and often spectators were involved and injured.

My dad relayed this story to me.  One day my dad was walking home from school.  It was very hot that day.  He says he remembers it very well.  There was a very big boom and the ground shook.  People went running.  He ran too to see what had happened.  It seems the heat of the day had melted the ice in the fracking cart and the nitro had gotten a little too warm.  The mule cart ran over a rock in the rutted road and Ka-Boom.  When my dad arrived on the scene he said there was little recognizable.  The man's clothes were hanging from nearby tree tops and it looked like a small tornado had struck. There were bits of his body and limbs but little remained.

This was the typical story of the complete and utter devastation a nitroglycerin blast would cause.

Fracking is much safer today than it was back then, I would hate to think of a Nitroglycerin factory moving into my neighborhood or people transporting raw nitroglycerin around in their cars and trucks in large qty. on the same road I was driving.  Forget IED's and roadside bombs, this was serious explosive power.  The last Nitro well shooting occured in May of 1990.  They quit after that because all of the manufacturing plants had exploded.

Here are some stories of the "accidents" which occurred in the fracking business.  Morbid but interesting.

http://www.logwell.com/tales/menu/index.html

http://www.bradfordlandmark.org/index.php?The%20Nitroglycerin%20Explosion%20in%20Marshburg

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irishcountry

  Well stated and I can totally appreciate what you are saying . BUT this IS NOT the same thing .  This technology is new we have not been using water, sand, and hosts of chemicals to "frack" wells that is a sales pitch and its used in every state along with telling "the people" that they have the best regs so don't worry .  Right on haliburtons timeline it states that the "water frac" process was invented in the 70's then later in the 80's accurately boring into tight sandstone formations horizontally.  This is a combination of both of those processes .  Thermogenic gas has ended up in wells and I personally think its a shame to trade clean well water for $$$$ . I respect your guys opinions though.  Thanks for the info and stories .

irishcountry

  Forgot to mention this "New" technology was first used in the Barnett shale of texas and they have also had problems down there .  Here is the timeline from Haliburton --http://www.halliburton.com/public/projects/pubsdata/hydraulic_fracturing/TimeLine.swf


Thehardway

Irish,

Once again it is perspective.  You listen to one group of anti-fracking information providers while those enjoying the profits listen to all the success stories and safety laws/regulations to protect them.  Neither group is right.

If you actually look at and read the patent that LT Col Edward A. Roberts filed for the process, it did involve the use of water.  The process was almost exactly the same with the exception that the high pressure was derived from first black powder, then Nitroglycerin and now it is a pump.  Yes the fluids have changed and there is some debate and secrecy over what kind of secret sauce they are using (this should be the focus of your energies rather than stopping fracking altogether) but the mechanics of the procedure and the basic fundamentals remain the same.

Where the big difference between then and now exists, is in the ability to combine fracking with directional drilling.  It is the directional drilling aspect that allows "exploration" into areas unknown by those on the surface.  Horizontal boring can cause many of the issues with water in the gas as during the horizontal bore they may cross fissures.  This can lead to problems.  Additionally, they can bore under adjacent properties without the knowledge of the landowner from a distance point.  Once again, this should be the focus of the anti-drilling/fracking crowd rather than an all out ban.

The Halliburton timeline you have cited is just milestones of Halliburton's endeavours in fracking.  There are many other companies and entities which pre-date and coexisted with Halliburton.  Like E. A. Roberts patented explosive method, Halliburton managed to patent a non-explosive method of fracking they called "Hydrafrac" and became a leader in the industry from the profits and succes derived with their patent.  The modern version of fracking which really came to a head in 2003 had been in development since about 1977 and was actually a product of FERC funded studies combining hydraulic fracking with horizontal boring, mapping and microsiemic exploration.

  http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-boom-in-shale-gas-credit-the-feds/2011/12/07/gIQAecFIzO_story.html

As for methane in the water, it can easily be removed by a water professional through an aerator system and an accumulator tank and it can be used in any natural gas fired appliance.  I would be lighting my house, heating my water and running my stove on it if someone was kind enough to inject it into my well.  I would be much more concerned about the flouride that the municipalities are dumping into the public water systems and contaminating the waterways with than I would methane which is relatively harmless in terms of health.

I do agree that the Fracking industry should not be exempt from the Clean Water Act
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