South African Mastif

[lowpolyjoe]

Anyone have any experience with this dog breed?  Also called BoerBoel.

I remember seeing one member's signature mentioning mastifs but can't recall who it was.

One of these giants appeared at my house last week and i've got very serious reservations about raising him.

We have small dogs that i'm worried about - he could easily kill them, by accident or on purpose if he gets aggrivated.  Also afraid of how seriously this animal is going to defend his home against intruders like friends and family who rarely visit or the postman.  I don't want to lose my house because he bites someone. 

I read a little about them online already.  Sounds like a great farm dog, but i don't live on a farm.  Just a house in the suburbs.  I have a 2 foot "garden" style fence in the yard to keep the small dogs from wandering off.  Sounds like this monster is going to require a huge fence and a ton of training.  Joint and stomach problems seem fairly common.  I also read they are starting to see epilepsy in the breed - one of my small dogs already has that dreaded ailment.  We spent 3 years of torture taking care of the poor thing.  One of the worste cases our vets have seen (went to 3 vets).  She is on 5 medications and costs us a fortune.  By some mircale she is finally somewhat stable the last few months, but she's likely to have serious liver problems in the short term due to all the meds.  I  love that dog and seeing her go through so much was a horror.   The first time the BoerBoel sees her have a seizure i'm worried he will interpret it as aggression and kill her outright.  I would not be able to stand that.  And if the BoerBoel himself develops epilespy it would be completely unmanagable.

I have a pretty strong opinion of what needs to happen, but I'm curious if anyone has any experience with the breed and can comment.

Thanks,
Joe

[Texas Ranger]

No experience, but, under the circumstances, get rid of it.

[Dave Shepard]

Piston has mastiffs. It's a tough call, but the big dog doesn't seem like a good fit in your house.

[lowpolyjoe]

Thanks guys.

Piston was indeed the member i was looking for.  I will harass him for advice

I love dogs.  I always liked big dogs.. my neighbor had mastifs when i was a kid and i loved those monsters.  I was a little upset when my wife wanted to get small dogs after her mid sized mutt passed on.  But now i'm completely attached to our two little furry critters.  They both have serious health problems and take up a ton of our time, but i love em. 

This mastif is a puppy, so i suppose he could be trained to live with them, but it seems like a serious risk to me.  Not to mention a ton of time, work and money that i hadn't planned for

I'm sometimes told i'm closed minded so i was hoping to hear what others thought.  Judging by the avatar pics, lots of dog lovers on this forum.

[Dan_Shade]

My experience is that big dogs make big poop.

[Yoopersaw]

Some body is probably looking for their puppy.  Have a vet scan it for a chip and call the shelters looking for their owners.  I had a beautiful well trained Brittney Spanial show up at my door a few years ago.  Finally tracked down the owner wko lived about 50 miles from here.  No ideas on how he got here since he went missing over a week before.

[lowpolyjoe]

Dan - i cant' imagine the size of the poop that will come out of this animal when he's full grown.  I'm guessing it would be comparable to a small horse.  I think they get to 150+lbs. 

Yoopersaw - i should have been more clear... "showed up" means my wife looked for a breeder and made a purchase without me knowing.  Last week i came home from work and there was a puppy at my house that was a complete surprise to me.   I remember a thread with a similar story a while back - another FF member lost his long time pet and his wife surprised him with a (?couple of?) puppies.  This is a different situation though... we have 2 sick dogs and this would be adding a 3rd.  Seems senseless to me and i'm trying to figure out if i'm overreacting or not.     

If i found a puppy running around the neighborhood i would definitely seek the owner.  I hope others would do the same     Losing a pet is aweful.  We had a situation a few months back with a random dog playing with the kids on our street, running around in the road.  We got him on a leash to keep him out of traffic and found the owners (next street over).

[sandhills]

Just typed a whole long story and tried to post but my time had run out  :D.  We'll start over, we moved out in the country last January and adopted a 4 year old English Mastiff from a close friend.  She's full grown, got thrown into a brand new home, and there was already 2 dogs living there ( one is a miniature poodle), I've never seen one bit of aggression towards either.  And yes they get big and poop big but I'm not giving her back!  :D  She really is a sweet dog and funny as all heck watching her try to play with the other two, you'd swear they thought they were in the ring with Mike Tyson!

[beenthere]

My experience is that big dogs make big poop.

And an equal or more amount of food to produce it... :
Enjoy   

[sawguy21]

Wonderful breed, he will likely grow up to be a big kid but I have reservations about him in your situation. They need a lot of room to run, IMHO, the suburbs are too restrictive for a dog that size but it's entirely your call.

[Piston]

First of all,
Congratulations on owning a member of one of the most incredible dog breeds out there!  ;D

I just wrote a rather lengthy reply to your post, I quoted your post and responded in bold.  I'll post it next. 


If you don't want to read the whole reply, feel free to PM me your email or phone number, I'd love to chat and answer any questions I can.  Also, I mention at the end of my next post, that I am certainly no professional dog guy, but I do know some very knowledgeable people that probably know about your specific breed, they would be happy to help you.

Don't get too caught up in the "negatives" of owning a dog that size/temperment.  Many negatives are due to poor training and socialization.  Owning a dog from "puppyhood" is an excellent opportunity to raise a very gentle and good natured dog.   

As you can see in my sig, I'm very fond of the Mastiff breed, they truly are amazing animals!   

-Matt

[Piston]

Anyone have any experience with this dog breed?  Also called BoerBoel.
I only have experience with the English Mastiff, which I can only assume the South African Mastiff is a descendant of, although in my quick searching it's actually difficult to tell exactly how this breed was developed. 
I'm not sure how applicable my experience will be, but I can give you my opinion based on experience only with English Mastiffs, so keep that in mind.   ;D

I remember seeing one member's signature mentioning mastifs but can't recall who it was.

One of these giants appeared at my house last week and i've got very serious reservations about raising him.
How old is the dog?  We got our first Mastiff (Newman) at 4 months old, from CO.  He was 54 lbs when we brought him home.  Our second was only 8 weeks old when we got her, I think that is still too young. 

When you say you have serious reservations about raising him, can you be more specific?  What are your reservations, and why? (aside from the ones you've already listed, if any.) 

We have small dogs that i'm worried about - he could easily kill them, by accident or on purpose if he gets aggrivated.
Although your right, he could easily kill them, it is very unlikely.  It may take a little time for all the dogs to adjust to each other, and depending on the age of the Mastiff it could take longer/shorter or more/less work.  In fact, not only would your new puppy NOT kill your other dogs, it would be quite the opposite, he will become attached to them and make the best of friends.  Your concerns are valid based on your lack of experience with the breed (not saying that in a bad way ;D) but they are based more off your worries than reality.  Your new puppy will not kill your other dogs! 

Also afraid of how seriously this animal is going to defend his home against intruders like friends and family who rarely visit or the postman.  I don't want to lose my house because he bites someone. 
Friends and family aren't intruders, I assure you though, he WILL defend your home against intruders.  Freinds and family need to be introduced, people won't just walk into your home when your not there.  When we have new people come to the home, we let the dogs out the back door, let the visitors in, and after everyone has calmed down we let the dogs in.  I find they are much more welcoming when the dogs come in after the visitors are already in the house, versus having visitors enter the dogs territory.  It is very important to properly train and socialize a Mastiff (or any dog originally bred for guarding for that matter) than it is say a retriever or lab (not saying that isn't important too.) 
A Mastiff, if left untrained and unsocialized, will become a huge liability, you will have problems as he gets older and he will more than likely become aggressive to strangers, such as visitors or the mailman.  A properly trained and socialized Mastiff, will behave just like any other dog.  If you constantly have visitors at your house when the dog is a puppy, bring him to crowded areas at a young age (and continuously do so) then it will be no big deal as he grows older.  It is more important though to socialize, socialize, socialize the mastiff if you are the type to bring your dog everywhere, and always have visitors, go to parades etc.  We don't do that, we don't typically have many people over, or bring our dogs places (partly because we have a VW Jetta and there is no way we are fitting 550+lbs of dog in there.)

You have to be very willing to train and socialize the dog, we brought all of ours to doggy daycare, and then basic obedience, and then more advanced obedience.  Even after all that, I would not bring my dog to a crowded area where everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) wants to come pet your dog and give him a huge hug.  You'd be amazed how many people will willingly run right up to a huge dog, and start petting/hugging your dog, and not just kids.   

I read a little about them online already.  Sounds like a great farm dog, but i don't live on a farm.  Just a house in the suburbs.  I have a 2 foot "garden" style fence in the yard to keep the small dogs from wandering off. Sounds like this monster is going to require a huge fence and a ton of training. 
From the sounds of your post (again, I don't mean this in a bad way at all) you are not very open to the idea of having the new dog.  This already is a red light in my book.  If you don't really want a 3rd dog, I don't think you should keep it, honestly.  This doesn't matter if it's a mastiff, a lap dog, a lab or retriever, or anything. However, I will say that you can get away with less training with something like say, a retriever, than you can with a mastiff.  If you aren't commiitted to raising this dog, then it would be a mistake to keep it.  If your only worried about it eating your other dogs/families/and the rest of the world's population, then get over that, because it is not at all the case.  ;D

Joint and stomach problems seem fairly common.
Big dogs, have big problems, when they have problems.  Big dogs are more expensive to "work on", don't live as long, and generally have more problems than smaller dogs, although not always true.  From what I read, the South African Mastiff grows to around 150lbs.  Although very large by dog standards, it isn't all that large by mastiff standards.  My larger mastiff (and I hate saying this for fear of sounding like I'm "bragging" or "proud" of my dogs weight, because I'm not) is 240lbs.  He is turning 6 yrs old today actually, and is in the healing process from having surgery due to a torn ACL.  This happened from either playing with the other dogs and one landing on his knee, or from slipping on our tile floor when he got scared, we aren't really positive how it happened. Point is, it was very expensive, moreso than if he was a poodle (it probably wouldn't have happened if he was a poodle).


I also read they are starting to see epilepsy in the breed - one of my small dogs already has that dreaded ailment.  We spent 3 years of torture taking care of the poor thing.  One of the worste cases our vets have seen (went to 3 vets).  She is on 5 medications and costs us a fortune. 
Our St. Bernard has Addisons Disease (basically she is unable to develop the hormone that deals with stress) and she is a very expensive dog, she has been, and will be, on medication her entire life.  We have had our fair share of medical issues with our dogs (more than most people would put up with, unfortunately.)  Hereditary disease, or joint problems, hip problems, eye problems etc, are all a possibility.  I have learned that the likelihood can be somewhat reduced by going with a reputable breeder, but I've also learned that even the best of breeders (I consider ours one of the best) can still have problem dogs (like my Newman).  All other dogs in the litter have barely had so much as a broken nail, whereas mine has had an incredible amount of problems, and surgeries to fix. 
It's really difficult (impossible) to tell if your new dog will have problems like this.  More than likely, he/she won't if he looks in generally good health, and has been checked by the vet to be healthy, but of course there is a risk. 


By some mircale she is finally somewhat stable the last few months, but she's likely to have serious liver problems in the short term due to all the meds.  I  love that dog and seeing her go through so much was a horror.   The first time the BoerBoel sees her have a seizure i'm worried he will interpret it as aggression and kill her outright.  This won't happen.  ;D

I would not be able to stand that.  And if the BoerBoel himself develops epilespy it would be completely unmanagable.

I have a pretty strong opinion of what needs to happen, but I'm curious if anyone has any experience with the breed and can comment.
Again, you seem to already know that you don't want to keep the dog, so DON'T!  I would hate to see a dog be raised without complete dedication to training, socializing, and positive reinforcement, than to be returned and found a good home.  (I don't mean to sound like you wouldn't give the dog a good home, because I don't think that, but if you don't want another one then it's better off to give the dog to someone who does). 

At the same rate, you've obviously had your share of problems with your dog, and if you weren't an animal lover you wouldn't have put up with the ongoing issues.  SO many people just put their dog down because they happen to get hurt, need surgery, or turn "bad".   


Thanks,
Joe

If your going to return the dog, then do it soon, because if you so much as keep that dog for more than a week or two, you will never be able to let it go, you will be roped in to the unbelievably calm natured, loving personality of your new dog, and you will do anything to make sure it has the best life possible.  I grew up with 4 (not at once) golden retrievers, and I loved every one of them, but I have never met a dog with a better personality than a mastiff.  They are referred to the "Gentle Giant" for a very appropriate reason!

A couple other thoughts, and remember, I am going off my experience with English Mastiffs, I've never seen a South African Mastiff. 

Personality-As mentioned, they are truly gentle giant's.  They will nudge up against you as if they can't get close enough, literally pushing you over sometimes in the process!  They are "leaners", they like to lean on you.  If you have elderly people in the house this can be a bit of an issue as the 150+lb dog leans against them. 

Temperment- Our breeder bred for "temperment".  They are great with kids, and extremely loyal to their owners/family. Keep in mind they were originally bred as guard/working dogs.  (they used to use English Mastiff's to fight black bears, as entertainment for others).  Over the hundreds of years of breeding (Mastiff's are some of the oldest breed in the world, many other dogs today have roots going back to mastiffs) they have been bred more as a family dog.  They will still protect their house, and family, to the death.  You will never have to worry about a burglur coming into your house, that's for sure.  They will become territorial, especially with a fence.  My dogs originally roamed the neighborhood unleashed, but then after a leash law we put up a fence.  They become territorial, and more aggressive to strangers, after putting up the fence.  You can't walk up to my fence if the dogs don't know you. 
   They are smart, and stubborn.  You don't "make" a mastiff do anything, at all!  They do it because you have trained them with positive reinforcement.  If my dog doesn't want to get up, then that's that, he won't.  You can't just pull his leash with a choke collar around him to make him get up.  In fact if you try to "make" them do something, they will lay down, and stay put.  Any negative reinforcement training will come back to haunt you.  (not to say I haven't needed to give my dog a good smack once in a while, but this is after I KNOW he knows he is doing something wrong, but continues to do it). 

Are you willing to get insurance on the dog?  I wont' have another Mastiff without insurance.  My youngest dog, a mastiff, has insurance, the others don't.  She is the only one we haven't had problems with, go figure!

Do you want a dog that lays around all day, doing nothing?  Mastiffs love to lounge.  I read the wiki page on South African Mastiffs and it states that they need a decent amount of exercise, this is contradicting to my situation.  I saw a show on Animal Planet that said the Mastiff was in the top 10 best dogs for homes with little land.  They just don't need much exercise, and they love to sleep.  It doesn't sound like this is the case for the South African though.
How much land do you have?  Do people walk by your little 2' fence all the time? 

I can get you in touch with my breeder who should know about the specific breed.  Their life is mastiffs, they travel the world going to shows.  I'm nothing more than a dog owner really, so I can't give you professional advice. 
Also, I have a neighbor who is probably the most knowledgeable dog person I know, literally.  She could certainly give you good advice.  Let me know if you would like some contact info, they could be a LOT more helpful than me. 





If you just want another dog just to have one around, then the Mastiff isn't the dog to have. 

We've had a lot of problems (health wise) with our older mastiff, Newman.  He is the only dog from his litter that has had issues, I don't know if it's us, something in the water, or we just got a bad egg or something, but I'd be more than happy to tell you all about it over the phone-it's too confusing for me to explain over the phone, let alone type  :D

People sometimes ask me why I have Mastiff's, it's similar to asking a motorcyclist why he rides a motorcycle, "if you have to ask, you wouldn't understand".  They're is definitely something special about them.

All that being said, I'd keep the dog..... ;D




  

  

  

  

 

[Piston]

Just wanted to reiterate how true this really is:

"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."


Edit: Here is the link for our breeders of "Newman"  http://www.vandmastiffs.com/

[Corley5]

Give the big guy a chance  ;D  We've got a female 80lb plus German Shepherd, Husky mix and three small dogs.  A Pug, A Chihuahau (sp?), and a Jack Russell/Beagle mix.  The small dogs abuse her  : ;D

[thecfarm]

Piston,that should be helpful.Not that it matters,my wife HAD to have another dog. My Boo-Boo is a very nice dog,but set in his ways at times. He's about 30 pounds,12 years old and over weight. Took about 6 months for us to even dare to leave them alone together. I saw him flip that dog over more than once the same way he does wood chucks and went for the belly.  I know he was not trying to kill her,because by the time I knew what was going on and hollered to him,it would be all over. He was always a calm dog,even when he was a puppy. Her dog is far from calm. Just about like a little kid that wants some attention so they kick you in the shins.Been about 1½ years and been some growling,but her dog keeps right at him.

[sandhills]

Yep, Piston pretty well nailed it!  Piston, your brendal colored mastiff looks almost identical to the one we have, I need to figure out the picture thing on my new computer and show a few pics of her after she tangled with a skunk.  Gives you a really good idea of their temperament with 2 little 11 year old girls giving her a bath  :D.  Only other thing I can think of is they DO slobber!  The folks we got "Miley" from had to give her away because of the leaning, the gal owns a pet parlor and Miley would get excited when people would bring their pets and yes they can knock you down.  The people that originally got her paid in the range of $1000 and drove to MO to get her, where her name Miley came from, just tells you how good these dogs CAN be, I just hope they never decide they want her back!

[pineywoods]

160 pound lap dog, yes gentle giant. Never had one myself, but have a neighbor that had one, along with a bunch of great danes.

[Piston]

Sandhills,
That's a great name for an appropriate reason! 

Um...I'm embarrassed.... I CAN"T BELIEVE I forgot to mention the SLOBBER!   :D


I meant to touch upon it in my original post but totally forgot.  ALthough, looking at some google images of South African Mastiffs, it looks like their jowels are a lot smaller than the English Mastiff.  The bigger the jowels, the more the drool! 

For 95% of the year, we leave the water bucket outside, rather than in the house, because when they drink water is when they drool the worst.  We also have a "drool rag" next to the door, for when they grab a quick drink before coming in, and still have slingers hanging from their mouths...  :D

[sandhills]

Ok think I got my new gadget figured out, we'll see what happens....


 



 



 

That would be Miley, along with Josie (Minnie poodle), and Banjo, our family pets with the exception of Soda the cat along with various horses not pictured, and yes I'm pretty sure Miley could swallow Josie in one bite if she wanted but I think she'd swallow anything else picking on Josie long before she'd do that  ;).  lowpolyjoe, I wish you the best of luck if you keep the pup and if you treat it with love and respect you'll probably never have a better companion, I wish we could have had Miley from a pup but we got to meet her when they first brought her home and I've always loved her.  By the way I didn't realize my daughter was wearing a good pair of welding gloves while washing to get the skunk scent off her until I saw the pictures  :-\  :D.

[lowpolyjoe]

Great feedback everybody, thanks a lot.  Nice pics Piston and Sandhills - thanks for sharing.  The puppy in question is brindle.  Attractive animal.

And I appreciate the time you put into your post Piston.  You covered a lot of important topics.  I've never heard of a 240lb dog, that's crazy!

I think the puppy is about 10 weeks old and we've had him about a week.   When i first saw him i told my wife to immediately send him back to the breeder.  I knew after a few days with the dog my wife would not be able to give him up, so I pushed really hard for her to send the little guy away quick.  It didn't happen.  She's not willing to part with him now and I'm really stuck.  As mentioned, this is not a pet for casual owners.  You must be dedicated to continual training and socializing

Piston you already commented on most of the reasons I'm worried about keeping him.

- Safety of my other dogs.  many comments have partly put this to rest.  But even something simple like when he plays with a chew toy.... at 10weeks he swings that thing around hard enough to do some serious (unintentional) damage to the little guys - they are only about 15lbs each.

- Safety of visitors.  This is still a huge question mark to me and has the biggest down side.  He could seriously injure someone if he's not trained right.  I don't want to see anyone get hurt and i don't want to lose my house over it.

- High requirements for training and socialization to avoid raising a 150lb monster.  Lots of time and money I wasn't prepared to commit...

- Health worries + vet bills for large breeds.  This is an unknown, even with a good breeder.  I don't know exactly where he came from.  We have insurance on 1 of our dogs and it saved us a bundle when he came down with some crazy rare blood disease this past year and almost died.  The epilsepy dog does not have insurance and has cost us more than i'm willing to publicly admit - I love both those little critters tho.

- Excersize requirements.  Sounds like the South African breed requires more excersize than other Mastifs.  We have about 1/2 acre back yard but no fencing.  Only a small fraction is "yard" that could be easily fenced.  The rest is "woods".  I don't want to (can't) build all that fencing myself and we got quotes over $10K already from fence companies.  There are small dogs and children in the yards joining my property so serious fencing would be required if we wanted to let him roam.

-Slobber was another worry that i kind of forgot about because the other issues are so much more important.  But yeah, slobber is no fun.


There are more points, but geez, i'm really sounding like a hater.  That bothers me because i'm not.  I love animals, dogs especially.  And i really love to play with a big dog.  Adding this guy to our house is just a really big deal and i'm a bit freaked out about it.

The biggest upside is household security.  I've been paranoid the last 5 years because there have been several burgulary sprees in our neighborhood.  Virtually every Christmas season some scumbags make the rounds.  I've got an alarm and cameras, but if a dirtbag wants to break in, he can still break in.   A mastif certainly changes that picture a bit.  That was a big part of my wife's rationale behind getting this guy.  It sounds great in theory, but it's not a robot - it's an animal that needs to be cared for and trained.  Ugh... i'm so frustrated.

Thanks for all the comments guys.

[sandhills]

I really like the way you're taking this all into consideration, it really shows how much you care for the animals you have and you've raised some really good points that none of us here but you can answer.  You're 100% right, these aren't robots they're animals, and they could do serious damage in a very short amount of time.  I don't know a thing about your pup or its temperament, or the surroundings it will have for that matter so please take my posts as being just what I've experienced with our dog.  Where we live and knowing my dog I don't have the least bit of concern for people showing up, even unannounced, Miley wouldn't do more damage than maybe a little slobber on their jeans, on the other hand if a stranger showed up doing no good, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. She is an outdoor dog other than the occasional wander through the house when we don't get the door shut tight, then she just ambles back out after she's made sure everything is up to her standards  so the slobber isn't much of a problem and as Piston stated they really only do it after drinking.  Let us know how everything turns out and if the boss says he's staying I don't think you'll regret it  ;)

[beenthere]

Miley wouldn't do more damage than maybe a little slobber on their jeans,

Or to their good clothes too. Let 'em wear that wet spot in the crotch wherever they are going next.  ;D

[Piston]

Sandhills,
I'm impressed you got your girls to wash the dog after being sprayed by a skunk!  I bet you realized they used your good welding gloves the next time you put them on to weld, and stunk like skunk!  :D

About 4 yrs ago we went up to our land in NH and spent the entire day on the lake in the boat.  It was a great day, nice weather and relaxing day on the water.  We got back to the house, cleaned up, showered, ate and were settled in for the night, then I let the dog out ONE more time.  Where does he go?  Off to explore the barn where apparently a freaking skunk was hanging around and din't want Newman around!  He got em square in the face from what I could tell, he came running back to the house with his eyes closed and I could immediately smell the fresh horrid skunk scent.  I still remember how still of a night it was, the skunk smell just lingered for hours.  >:(

I put my bathing suit on and 3 baths later he was tolerable, man I can't stand those skunk smells. 


 

Joe,
Good luck in whatever you guys end up deciding.  If you give in and decide to keep the dog, you'll be happy you did in the long run.  ;) 

[thecfarm]

I only have a small dog,compared to yours. Mine has got "hit" 3-4-5 times. I lost track. I've seen him put his face on the ground and plow like a farmer. That stuff stings in the eyes. Than he's all happy again. Once going out the door to work,there he is all smiles and stinky. I opened the door and said your boy just got into a skunk,good bye.  :D
Three common things we use for him,peroxide,dish washing liquid soap and one other ingredient. Just a coffee cup size does it.Well helps cut it down.
We was selling corn stacks and I had them up against a board on both side,the dog was having a fit. I grabbed a gun and I went over to the stalks. The skunk came out and my dog went up to it. Did I tell you I also had the garage doors open?? I ran off to the side because I saw the tail come up.

[sandhills]

Yeah cfarm, I got on here and used your recipe, I knew I'd read about it here.  It takes the bite out of it but she still has that smell a little and it's been a good three weeks now at least.