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Can you remove ethanol from gasoline?

Started by shinnlinger, April 23, 2013, 10:39:42 PM

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shinnlinger

Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Tom L

that's what usually happens in a boat fuel tank, if not used constantly and not treated, the ethanol separates and the alcohol absorbs water which then blooms algae which clogs all the filters and causes a mess.

shinnlinger

I think its pretty enterprising to add the water and to remover the ethanol right off the bat.   Might be an affordable way  to go ethanol free.

Dave
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Fraxinus

Quote from: shinnlinger on April 25, 2013, 08:40:15 PM
I think its pretty enterprising to add the water and to remover the ethanol right off the bat.   Might be an affordable way  to go ethanol free.

Dave
Dave, you might want to send that link to your State Rep., Chuck Townsend, who is the vice chairman of the Science, Technology and Energy committee.  I have sent it to the chair and a couple of the other members who I know are interested in the subject.  I am also a member of that committee.
Les
Grandchildren, Bluegrass music, old tractors, trees and sawmills.  It don't get no better'n that!

shinnlinger

Les,

I know Chuck.  Would talking with him help make it possible to buy ethanol free gas in NH?

Dave
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

isaacpopp

Nah. The EPA will just make it illegal to mix water into the gasoline  :D
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time." A.L.

Peter Drouin

Well Im going to make a set up to do that for all the small things,
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

TimRB

Sheesh--this explains a mystery for me.  One day our generator started running poorly and, on examination, I found an alarming amount of water in the gas tank.  (Didn't actually measure it, but it was a pint or more...)  This, even though I carefully filled from a gas can and stored the generator in a weatherproof (but unheated) location.  Over time, the ethanol in the gas must have absorbed enough atmospheric water to cause separation. 

I learn a lot reading this forum.

Tim

Fraxinus

Quote from: shinnlinger on April 25, 2013, 09:53:52 PM
Les,

I know Chuck.  Would talking with him help make it possible to buy ethanol free gas in NH?

Dave
Probably not.  We have passed bills at least twice to do away with corn based ethanol in gasoline in NH but there are millions of reasons why it can't be done, if you catch my meaning.
This is one issue where party makes no difference.  Chuck and I are not of the same party. ;)
What part of Canaan do you live in?  I used to work for NHEC so I know my way around the place pretty good.
Grandchildren, Bluegrass music, old tractors, trees and sawmills.  It don't get no better'n that!

shinnlinger

Les,

Chuck has an old Farmall if that helps bridge the political gap.  I announce the old homeday parade and I'm always haranging him to bring it down to pull the dems around.  Ray Burton has his Oldsmobile though and thats cool.  My place is the only one in town with a VW van on the roof of my barn.  Most folks know it.....
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

jwilly3879

You can separate the gas but without the ethanol the octane is much lower.

John Mc

Note that E10 gas gets about 4 of it octane rating from the ethanol.  Remove the ethanol, and your 91 octane E10 premium gas becomes 87 Octane E0 gas. 

The article mentions adding an octane booster to compensate. Be warned that many of these products have some rather deceptive labeling (IMO).  For example, they say that adding so much booster per gallon will raise the octane by "2 points".  What this can really mean is that it boosts octane rating by 0.2, so 87 octane becomes 87.2 (NOT 89).  I have no idea if this is true for all octane boosters, but it would pay to investigate further before trusting that you know what octane you are ending up with.

If you've got an engine that will tolerate leaded gas (and no catalytic converter to get messed up by the lead), adding a gallon of aviation gas to 9 gallons of 87 octane auto gas wil get you pretty close to 89 octane.  Of course, Avgas is running pretty close to $6/gallon these days... and this whole process is starting to get fairly complex (mix with water to strip out ethanol, drain off water/ethanol, mix with Avgas...)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

petefrom bearswamp

try puregas.org for the locations of ethanol free gas stations.
The US map shows lots of them.
Pete
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

shinnlinger

Why are all those places at least an hour away from me????
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

John Mc

Are you near any Marinas?  They often have ethanol-free gas.  Some small airports do as well (some piston aircraft engines don't have to have Aviation gas, so folks use ethanol-free auto gas - much cheaper)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

maple flats

try pure-gas.org   They have a list of places to get ethanol free gas. Maybe there is one closer than you think.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

GeorgeK

Interesting topic. I own a small plane that can fly on 87 oct. But only without ethanol. I have been interested in buying gas and removing it but had worried about the lower oct rating. Keep me in the loop if you all try it. I would like to do it 100 gallons at a time and then put in my storage tank. 
George Kalbfleisch
Woodmizer LT40, twin blade edger, Bobcat A300, Kubota L48 and yes several logrites!

sawguy21

Quote from: John Mc on April 28, 2013, 08:24:20 PM
Are you near any Marinas?  They often have ethanol-free gas.  Some small airports do as well (some piston aircraft engines don't have to have Aviation gas, so folks use ethanol-free auto gas - much cheaper)
Don't get caught, the road tax hasn't been paid.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

John Mc

Quote from: sawguy21 on June 27, 2013, 11:11:15 PM
Quote from: John Mc on April 28, 2013, 08:24:20 PM
Are you near any Marinas?  They often have ethanol-free gas.  Some small airports do as well (some piston aircraft engines don't have to have Aviation gas, so folks use ethanol-free auto gas - much cheaper)
Don't get caught, the road tax hasn't been paid.

Yeah, but if you're using it in chainsaws, lawnmowers, and the like, that doesn't matter.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

John Mc

Quote from: Fraxinus on April 26, 2013, 02:18:03 PM
Quote from: shinnlinger on April 25, 2013, 09:53:52 PM
Les,

I know Chuck.  Would talking with him help make it possible to buy ethanol free gas in NH?

Dave
Probably not.  We have passed bills at least twice to do away with corn based ethanol in gasoline in NH but there are millions of reasons why it can't be done, if you catch my meaning.
This is one issue where party makes no difference.  Chuck and I are not of the same party. ;)
What part of Canaan do you live in?  I used to work for NHEC so I know my way around the place pretty good.

Doing away with it is one thing - it may not even be possible on the state level, and good luck making that fly on the federal level. There is just too much money invested and political influence behind the ethanol industry now to "do away with it".

On the other hand, it should be possible to make E0 gas available.  It is in Vermont, at a couple of stations in my area.  For the past several years, non-ethanol premium gas was available only from about May through Sept, and then only at stations that made the extra effort to get it.  Starting in fall of 2012, a few stations had it available year round. (I'm told the source of E0 gas used to be from somewhere in Canada, but the year-round guys now seem to be getting it from the Albany NY area, IIRC).

For us, the E0 premium (91 Octane) costs about 7 - 10% more than the E10 regular (87 octane).  I buy all my small engine gas as E0 premium.  I also make it a point to fill up my car tank with the E0 when I'm in the area. I want to give the business to the stations that are jumping through the hoops to make it available.  It ends up not being any more expensive, since my cars all get about 10% better gas mileage when running E0 (doesn't make a lot of sense: E0 does have a bit more energy content than E10, but not 10% more.)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

John Mc

Quote from: GeorgeK on June 27, 2013, 10:55:14 PM
Interesting topic. I own a small plane that can fly on 87 oct. But only without ethanol. I have been interested in buying gas and removing it but had worried about the lower oct rating. Keep me in the loop if you all try it. I would like to do it 100 gallons at a time and then put in my storage tank.

I'm a pilot also (Comm & CFI).  My plane (a Cessna 172 upgraded to 180HP engine) can run E0 autogas, but it needs to be at least 91 Octane.  I have run E0 91 octane, and it seems to run fine, but I don't do it much anymore.  The shelf life of autogas is nowhere near that of AvGas, and I'm just not flying as much as I used to.

I'd be leery of trying to strip the ethanol out of E10 premium by mixing water and draining off the ethanol/water mix.  You don't really know what octane you are ending up with, and there is not a lot of margin for error here.  If you have residual ethanol/water in the fuel (which you most likely will) this can attack rubber (or similar) fuel lines, swell o-rings, etc.  It's also corrosive and will attack aluminum (and fiberglass, as the boating industry has discovered). Maybe you'll be fine, but the consequences of having a problem in an aircraft can be a little more severe than in a car, boat, or chainsaw.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

calw1izl

George,

I am also a pilot, Navion, 172 and PA11 over the years and have been purging my Ethanol gas for some time now and while I make a point to add a couple of ounces of SeaFoam, Octane Booster as well as a full dose of marine grade Stabil back to all my gas, I have several friends, one who is a well respected mechanic in one of the local towns that does not add any octane booster to his refined gas.  His spin is that there is so little octane lost that in all the tests he has done, it always is 87 + grade octane.  I have a post somewhere, I believe under the "general board" discussions group outlining what I use for the vessel to separate the Ethanol.  The toughest part is something that is easy to "valve up" to allow extraction and refilling the gas containers. I use a 15 gallon "chemical inductor" and mating stand which is plumbed down to a valve and 3/4" reinforced hose and it works slick.  Cost is minimal and I usually do 10 gallons per time and it take about 30 minutes for total separation. It starts immediately and as a rule I end up with just a tad under 1 gallon of water and Ethanol per batch.  I use one of the 1 gallon glass jars to make it easy to see the change from garbage to clean gas. It is very irritating to have to throw away 4 bucks but the alternative is problem much more severe and costly repairing/rebuilding all the carbs, tanks on the small engines and equipment. I use this on my mill, trimmers, brush saws, chainsaws and utility vehicles.  BTW the closest marina where I could purchase Ethanol free gas is down in Bar Harbor or over in St. John's, both a considerable ways to drive.  As far as AV gas, most of it in this general area has Ethanol in it.  This info comes from the fellow that owns the distributing company that delivers it here locally. 

I hope this info is helpful.

Cal
Cal  W1IZL
Cook Saw HD3238, Case 584CK, Cats Claw Sharpener, Setter, way too many misc woodworking tools and equipment

calw1izl

I forgot to tell you that to make the separation occur, you need to add 2.5 oz. of water per gallon  of gas, mix well and then let it sit for maybe 30 minutes.

Cal
Cal  W1IZL
Cook Saw HD3238, Case 584CK, Cats Claw Sharpener, Setter, way too many misc woodworking tools and equipment

beenthere

And from what is being reported, EPA plans to make the ethanol a higher % in the near future.
Prolly just because they have the power, and want to show it.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

John Mc

Quote from: calw1izl on June 28, 2013, 09:24:30 AM
As far as AV gas, most of it in this general area has Ethanol in it.  This info comes from the fellow that owns the distributing company that delivers it here locally. 

If you are referring to 100LL when you say Av Gas, it NOT have ethanol in it (unless someone misfueled a tank somewhere along the line).  I'm not referring to trace amounts, but ethanol in any appreciable quantity would mean the 100LL does not meet the ASTM spec.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Whitman


Whitman

add 10%water to the gasoline and let the funnel remove it all. run a second time with less water to be sure you got it all.it would be easy to measure input and removal. mine is on order

John Mc

Just remember that when you remove the ethanol, you are also lowering the octane rating by as much as 3 or 4 points for E10 gas.  So if you start with 91 Octane, you end up with 87 or 88 octane.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Mountain Guardian


The Ethanol in gasoline is the most moronic idea,  Gasoline has a higher octane, has a pollution index of 1 as compared to 1.4 for ethanol, is much cheaper than ethanol and adding 10% ethanol to your gasoline reduces gas mileage by 8%.    Not too mention the increased price of corn which we use to feed ourselves and out livestock with..... or the fact that ethanol is really hard on older carbs.

They sold us a real bill of goods when they passed that junk.

To put the octane in possibly a more understandable way......  One gallon of gas(with 10% ethanol) has 125,000 BTU of energy..... one gallon of ethanol has 77,000 BTU of energy.  This is why you have to rejet your carb if you want to run straight ethanol in your engine, because you need much larger jets to allow much more fuel flow to make up the difference.

As for the octane yes you are right it does reduce the octane slightly, ethanol has a faster burn rate than gasoline which is how they measure octane.

sharp edge

MG
Where are you getting your info from?...  big oil. I did a lot of W/D in WI. The hardest thing was dealing with state,
The stroke of a pen is mighter than the stroke of a sword, but we like pictures.
91' escort powered A-14 belsaw, JD 350-c cat with jamer and dray, 12" powermatic planer

John Mc

Quote from: Mountain Guardian on January 10, 2014, 09:07:05 PM

... Gasoline has a higher octane...

Ethanol has a HIGHER octane rating (113) than gasoline (usually 87 to 93, depending on the grade). Higher octane should not be confused with higher energy content of the fuel. The octane rating is an expression of a fuel's ability to resist detonation (engine knocking). In a gasoline engine, the higher the compression ratio, the higher the octane rating is needed.  This is one of the reasons some very high compression race engines are designed to run on alcohol, rather than gas.

QuoteTo put the octane in possibly a more understandable way......  One gallon of gas(with 10% ethanol) has 125,000 BTU of energy..... one gallon of ethanol has 77,000 BTU of energy.  This is why you have to rejet your carb if you want to run straight ethanol in your engine, because you need much larger jets to allow much more fuel flow to make up the difference.

Ethanol does have less BTUs than gas (though I've always hear numbers closer to 114,000 BTUs for gas, but it gould be the numbers I'm looking at are for other oxygenated gas blends, which also lower the BTU content a bit), but again BTUs are unrelated to Octane rating.

In theory, if BTU content were the only consideration, my cars should get about 3% lower MPG running E10 fuel than running "straight gas". I don't know why, but I always seem to get something closer to 8 to 10% worse mileage.

I've never (to my knowledge) had a car damaged by E10 fuel. Most of the vehicles made in the last 15 or so years can handle it just fine.  I have had some small engines damaged from ethanol - fuel lines deteriorating, metal tanks rusting, etc. (as much my fault as the fuel's for leaving the fuel in the machine even when I knew better).

I avoid ethanol blends in all my 2 cycle engines. I've heard from too many chainsaw repair guys of the great increase in repair work they've seen as E10 gas has become standard.  I have run E10 in my chainsaws in a pinch, and it runs just fine. I just make VERY sure to run fresh fuel, and not let it sit in the saw if I won't be using it again very soon. I also enrich the mixture a bit when running E10 (it doesn't take a lot, since even the E0 gas I can get is an oxygenated fuel - which minimizes the difference in the mixture settings needed).
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Mountain Guardian

My chainsaws are the reason I even know this, I was running 8 saws for a couple years and I kept having a massive amount of trouble with the rubber tips on the needles.  I went to researching if it could have anything to do with the ethanol and sure enough that is what is what it was.  But in my research I learned a whole lot about ethanol wierdly enough it is tough to find much of the info I looked up back then.

It has been about 9 years since I researched all of that, weirdly enough I am having trouble finding much of the info anymore, such as I was unable to even find the pollution index for Ethanol this time around.

As for the 8% reduction of gas mileage when I originally looked all of this up I simply went by BTU comparison between gasoline and ethanol and just simply compared between the energy available in ethanol compared to gasoline and calculated the difference. 

As for carbs, the last year that any were used was back in 90 so you would have to be driving a rig at least 24 years old to see a problem with that.  Most of my rigs are in the 30 to 50 yr range so I see it.

By the way, if anyone has trouble with their chainsaws and ethanol I came up with some reasonable fixes for that, the best fix is simply getting a metal needle.  The next best thing if you can't get a metal is to lightly turn a new sharp drill bit in the seat by hand a few times and remove a very tiny amount of metal, this allows the groove that you get on your needle to seat just a bit further in and keeps it from sticking, this can be done every few months to keep the saw running right without needles sticking.  I had five guys working for me logging on our last farm and I supplied all the saws, man what a headache, between sharpening saws all night and constantly dealing with bad carbs.

minn

M G where do you get that ethanol is higher than unleaded,  current unleaded price on cme exchange is  $2.9485 while ethanol is $$2.055.







shinnlinger

Hello,

My neighbor dropped off a photocopy of this pic the other day.  It was smeared right where this pic is and I don't know the original source, but it is one of the easiest ways I have seen yet to remove ethanol from gasoline.   I will whip one of these units up in the near future.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

John Mc

Yeah, it's easy to do, just remember you are also removing 3 or 4 of your octane rating when you remove the ethanol. If you start with 91 octane E10 gas, you'll end up with 87 or 88 octane.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

shinnlinger

I can't magine that would be much of a problem with small engines, or should octane booster be used?
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

John Mc

Quote from: shinnlinger on January 05, 2015, 05:50:08 AM
I can't imagine that would be much of a problem with small engines, or should octane booster be used?

With a chainsaw it could be. Chainsaws tend to be higher compression engines. The higher the compression ratio, the higher the octane rating needs to be. IIRC, most chainsaw manufacturers recommend at least 89 octane (i.e. "mid-grade"). Remember also that gas loses some of its octane rating as it's stored - this is true of both E10 and non-ethanol gas.

Premium gas (91 octane) is the only non-ethanol gas you can find around here at the pump (unless you buy the canned premix stuff, or can find racing fuel or Aviation gas - those alternatives are expensive, and I also won't run AvGas in my saws due to the lead in that fuel).
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

shinnlinger

my understanding is that all grades, even super, have ethanol now.  If it was just a simple matter of buying super I wouldn't bother doing anything else.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

John Mc

Quote from: shinnlinger on January 06, 2015, 11:03:05 PM
my understanding is that all grades, even super, have ethanol now.  If it was just a simple matter of buying super I wouldn't bother doing anything else.

In some parts of the country, non-ethanol premium is carried by some stations. The station in my home town in VT does not have it, but there are several others within 10-15 miles who do.

I see you are in NH. There are a few there: try www.pure-gas.org to find them.  This is a "user reported" web site, so the list may not be 100% accurate. If you find other stations with E0 gas, you can add them to the list.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

shinnlinger

None of those spots in NH or VT are very near to me sad to say.  An old propane tank is in the back though....
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Dave Shepard

The premium gas around here seems to be alcohol free, at least the ones I've tested. There is a station that advertises E Free gas in Canaan, but unfortunately for you it's Canaan, NY. It's about 15 minutes from me. Strangely, I'm about 20 minutes from Canaan, CT, as well. :D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Ron Wenrich

We have a saw shop that carries ethanol free gasoline.  Here's a site that has a list of ethanol free stations.  http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

shinnlinger

No matter how many times folks post that handy purgas site for me to peruse ( and I do every time) the places listed in them do not get any closer than over an hour away.   

What I should do though is pester my local filling station.  They do off road diesel and cater to the construction/logging crowd so I might have some leverage there.  The problem every local pro logger I have spoken to about ethanol use their saws every day and don't have the same issues as those of us that put a saw on a shelf for a bit. 
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

johnjbc

I bought 25 gallons last week, from a station near me. Its medium grade (89) and was $4.50  Found it on the pure gas site.
I have quite a few motors that I only use occasionally. Have been setting them up so that I can bungee cord an outboard motor tank to them and run them on new gas. Saves a lot of problems.
LT40HDG24, Case VAC, Kubota L48, Case 580B, Cat 977H, Bobcat 773

Dave Shepard

Most places around here have ethanol free premium. It's not $4.50 a gallon. ::)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

John Mc

Our non-ethanol premium around here costs about what the E10 premium costs... close enough that I never paid attention to the difference.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Mopar70

I have been using aviation fuel in all my small engines for the last couple years with no failures.
I started at 50-1 for a fiew tanks in a beater poulan as a test, found it very lean.
I ran 40-1 this year in two saws, found my plugs still a little lean but not dangerous by any means.
this year im going to try 32-1 in the saws, i will keep everyone posted on my results.

John Mc

I'm a pilot, and deal with aviation fuel (known as 100LL) all the time. This is a leaded fuel. The lead is in the form of Tetraethyl Lead, which is a particularly nasty form. Lead is toxic to the heart, bones, intestines, kidneys, and reproductive and nervous systems.  Tetra Ethyl lead is a cumulative neurotoxin. I can deal with it in the plane, but there, the exhaust port is not a foot or two from my nose. Even then, we never let my wife (also a pilot) fuel the plane when she was pregnant or trying to get pregnant.

I won't use AvGas in any of my saws or other small engines. It's just not worth the risk.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

mad murdock

A steady diet of 100LL will also lead foul the spark plugs and quite possibly could accumulate in the ring grooves of the piston over prolonged use. I are an aircraft mechanic since 1987, aircraft piston engines have to have the spark plugs cleaned at least every 50 hours of lead deposits, if you don't want to face a potential engine problem.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

John Mc

Mad Murdoch -

Yes, I forgot to mention that. I do agree with you that lead fouling is an issue, especially in engines that are not designed with 100LL in mind. Even older cars that were designed to run on leaded gas can have problems with 100LL - which can have up to 3 times as much lead as the old auto gas. I've never run 100LL in my chainsaw, and don't intend to, but I wonder if they run hot enough to avoid the worst of the lead deposits?

BTW... someone needs to teach the pilots flying the planes you work on how to properly lean their engines when idling and taxiing to avoid/reduce lead fouling. (Yeah, I know, there are some aircraft where even that doesn't cure the problem). I used to be a flight instructor, and it always amazed me how many folks came in for flight reviews had no idea how to lean an engine properly. Some at least had a clue about leaning in flight, but most had no idea about doing it on the ground. (I suppose if I'd been an instructor out in the Rockies, my experience might have been different - at those altitudes, you HAVE to lean, even while on the ground at some airports.)

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

mad murdock

I ran 100LL in my 2stroke Polaris 250 trailblazer 4 wheeler when I was in Alaska, as the fuel we drained out of aircraft was not put back in since we had no filtration method after draining fuel to replace a fuel cell bladder for ex. We had a 55 gal drum or 2 wrong be the show for that always, which was available for such uses. The thing I learned about burning it in small engines is they in extreme cold, the engines were hard to start on straight 100LL. Extremely so, had to switch to mogas when temps dipped below 0. 100LL would not atomize sufficiently for the engine to light off unless you had a way to preheat the engine first.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

pineywoods

I wonder if it would be feasable to use a centrifuge to separate out the alcohol ? Not that I want to try it, got too many other projects...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

AnthonyW

Quote from: pineywoods on January 21, 2015, 10:00:18 AM
I wonder if it would be feasable to use a centrifuge to separate out the alcohol ? Not that I want to try it, got too many other projects...

I haven't contacted a chemist on this yet so don't quote me. If the scuttlebut is correct that if you add water to the ethanol gas and let it sit, the ethanol will be in the water on the bottom. IF that is true, I have seen a water filtering funnel. There appears to be an inverted screen in the center of the funnel. After you pour the gas through, the space between the screen and the funnel is filled with the water from the gas. If both halves of that tale is true, then removing the ethanol should be a piece of cake. Just add 10-20% water, shake, and pour.
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

AnthonyW

Quote from: shinnlinger on January 08, 2015, 08:07:16 PM
No matter how many times folks post that handy purgas site for me to peruse ( and I do every time) the places listed in them do not get any closer than over an hour away.   

What I should do though is pester my local filling station.  They do off road diesel and cater to the construction/logging crowd so I might have some leverage there.  The problem every local pro logger I have spoken to about ethanol use their saws every day and don't have the same issues as those of us that put a saw on a shelf for a bit.

The last time I looked there weren't any close to me. But I have not had any problems with the ethanol in the gas (which I don't understand but that's another story). I own engines and carbs that span more than 35 years. From a '64 gravely to a '12 Honda Power washer. I however do several things, mostly to prevent gum and varnish in the carbs, but I think the practice has carried over to prevent water problems.

1) In small tank engines (chainsaw, weed wackers), I empty the tank and run it dry. I do not leave the fuel in the tank or carb.
2) When storing for the season, I empty the tank (siphon), then run the carb dry. I then refill with fresh gas with (red) stabil then start and allow to run for a minute or two.
3) I store gas in metal cans (not the plastic ones) and keep it where the daily temperature swings are minimal (ie., not under the porch and not in the shed). Why metal? Because plastic is actually porous and water/water vapor can pass through. The tank on my LT25 lube tank is a perfect example. When I first received the mill, I had to replace the lines on the lube tank. They had hardened. I assume they were vinyl lines and the previous owner had been run diesel (the urethane bands were hard as well). After the lines were replaced, I closed the valves as I didn't want anything to crawl in the tank or plug the hose. The next time I used, I notice something moving in the lube tank. The tank had been closed for nearly 6 months. I found nearly 1" of water in the tank. Wanting to check to see if the tank had a hole or leak, I removed the hose and the tank but left the valve closed. No leak. So where did the water come from? It is not a gas tank, so no ethanol. The water that was in the tank would not come out even when squeezed, so no leak. The water entered the tank because plastic is porous and not 100% water tight. Just as concrete will allow moisture through, plastic will as well.

'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

John Mc

Quote from: shinnlinger on January 08, 2015, 08:07:16 PM
No matter how many times folks post that handy purgas site for me to peruse ( and I do every time) the places listed in them do not get any closer than over an hour away.   

You're probably not near any marinas either, are you? They sometimes stock E0 gas, since it can be a real problem for powerboats. Of course, that may not help you in the winter, when marinas are closed.

John
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

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