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Author Topic: My timber frame build  (Read 36195 times)

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Online ljohnsaw

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2013, 12:47:45 am »
Firecord,

Yeah, old water is nasty.  I've talked with a few of the installers - they all agree that a dry system is more prone to failure and maintenance issues.  What's your take?  The thing is, my cabin is more likely to burn down from the outside than the inside being in a state forest!  That's why I'm doing a steel roof and concrete siding.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 38" cut Bandmill up to 64' - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline firecord

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2013, 07:42:59 am »
Dry pipe is an extremely simple set up.  There is a basically a flapper valve at the point of entry, the surface area of the flap is slightly larger than the pipe. Put a little water on the top and charge with air.  When a head opens the pressure goes down and valve opens.  no chance of water freezing and bursting pipes when your not there.  also forgot to tell you that your pump will have to be listed or fm approved.  If you're using a gen-set the valve could also start it and you could use elec. pump.

Offline samandothers

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2013, 09:04:02 am »
Enjoying your thread.  Thanks for taking time to produce it.

Offline firecord

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2013, 12:49:36 pm »
Just finished reading up on California's regulations. A prime example of gov bs.  Smoke detectors save lives, sprinkler systems save property.  anyway  after some searching there are several gas pumps from the 7.5 to 14 hp range that will meet your requirements. pipe your 60 gpm well to your fire system holding tank with a back-flow preventer and you'll have plenty of water.  I personally would shoot for an exemption which is allowable in some counties.

Online ljohnsaw

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2013, 01:49:58 pm »
Firecord,

Agreed!

Thanks!  If you would, please PM me the pump manufacture/models (or post here for others if that is acceptable).  I would convert from gasoline to propane since the shelf-life of the propane is a bit better than gasoline ;).  My well can produce 60gpm but I will only have a Simple Pump that puts out 3.2gpm when the sun is shining.  I was planning on some domestic storage (300 gal) and fire storage (now 600 gal required) slightly below grade in my daylight basement to prevent freezing.

Since my fire engineer has already drawn up the plans for a wet system (because they feel that is the best and only way to do it in my climate), what is the best way to approach them with a dry request so I don't annoy them?
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 38" cut Bandmill up to 64' - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline firecord

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2013, 03:49:33 pm »
http://store.primopumps.com/Davey-Firefightersup_sup-Pumps/products/8/              here is a link for what is called a prection system which is more fail safe than. a dry-pipe.  however it requires electronic activation from an alarm panel.     http://www.vfpfire.com/systems-pre-action.php         there are also systems that are filled with antifreeze. but cal fire says NO.   as for your engineer he works for you just tell him what you want.  plenty of info on net to research pros and cons of each type.  the pump must comply with nfpa 20 if over 5 hp and what ever system u go with is nfpa 13. nfpa is not a law its only a standard or recommendation that you cant go below due to cal fire requirements.

Offline jpjarhead

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2013, 09:21:04 pm »
New to the forum and just saying howdy. I wish my well was 60 gpm. I am lucky to get 3. Jim are you on?
Improvise, adapt, overcome

Offline thecfarm

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2013, 09:36:50 pm »
jpjarhead,welcome to the forum. Looking to see if Jim is on line here? Look to the left of his user name. There is a small box,will be white if not on line, green if he's here.And hover your mouse oner that box and it will say online or off line too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline jpjarhead

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2013, 09:40:03 pm »
thanks, PC challenged. yep I was looking for Jim, but figured out how to send an email.
Improvise, adapt, overcome

Offline jpjarhead

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2013, 09:44:30 pm »
cfarm do you have any experience with TF?
Improvise, adapt, overcome

Offline thecfarm

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2013, 10:13:11 pm »
Nope,Not one little bit.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline routestep

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2013, 10:04:49 am »
Those are very impressive trees and rocks, I'd have to get a way bigger saw.

Get all the fire protection you can. Get some cameras also. I like the concrete siding/walls idea too.

I built a TF camp up north. I got a call a couple of years back that my camp burned to the ground. The fire marshal (FM) ruled it arson.

About two weeks later on a stake out the FM car burned to the hubcaps. (That was ruled arson also. Pretty much right on the spot.) The state police have a good idea who set the fires, but they can't prove it in court.

Offline beenthere

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2013, 12:33:44 pm »
Quote
About two weeks later on a stake out the FM car burned to the hubcaps

Need an interpretation of what this means... thanks. Feeling a bit dense here. ;)

on a stake out  ??

FM car  ??

burned to the hubcaps ??
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Online ljohnsaw

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2013, 12:39:24 pm »
Quote
About two weeks later on a stake out the FM car burned to the hubcaps

Need an interpretation of what this means... thanks. Feeling a bit dense here. ;)
on a stake out  ??
Officers doing surveillance to try and solve the crime.  Kind of wonder how their car got set on fire if they were in it?? ::)

FM car  ??
FM = Fire Marshal

burned to the hubcaps ??
i.e. nothing left of the car - totally burned up.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 38" cut Bandmill up to 64' - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline beenthere

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2013, 01:54:28 pm »
Thanks ljohn
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline routestep

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2013, 09:43:00 am »
I guess my post was a little cryptic. I didn't want to hijack the thread, but we can learn and consider from all sorts of experiences.
 
The fire marshal and two others were watching another camp in the area. They were out of the vehicle and spaced in the woods around the camp. Sometime after midnight they decided to leave. They discovered a game camera that they had placed was missing and they saw the glow from where their car was parked.

The camera was never found and the car was a total loss.

All hell broke loose when the car burned. Sheriff, State Police, K-9, Fish and Game. Searching the woods looking for clues. That was arson number four. My camp was arson number three.

Funny, but the license plate to the car was removed and found up and around on the side of the gravel road by my lot half a mile away.


Online ljohnsaw

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2013, 01:17:38 pm »
Routestep - no problem, I always like to hear thoughts from others.  There are a few cabins in my area and they have cameras.  We are right on a main road going into a campground (Thousand Trails) so there is a bit of traffic every day, all day  ::)  Fortunately, my build site is just over a hill from the road so I don't hear much but the big diesel pushers.

Firecord - got a call back from the Davey pump guy.  He felt I should do some pushback.  The code (as he reads it) requires two 12gpm sprinklers for residential.  Even if you double it, that is only 48 (50 gpm).  I tried to read the code and I found that need to have 4 heads operating in the most distant spot on the line (11.3.1.1).  I am an open frame so I'm not sure if the pressure requirement is 7 psi (11.3.2.1) or 20 psi (11.3.4.2 - heads are greater than 8' apart).  Still have a little more reading to do in section 22.4.  Running 50 gpm @ 7 (or even 20) psi is a huge improvement over 65 @ 65! :o
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 38" cut Bandmill up to 64' - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline firecord

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2013, 08:26:03 am »
Not seeing your prints I can't do the calculations, but its like any other project.  Pit 2 or 3 different companies against each other for best design and installation = savings. I'm sure another company will review your plans for cheap and may even do it for free and offer a different option. We always contracted a design firm then shopped out the drawings.  this could be your answer.  As for the law I'm sure it was because all the large sprinkler companies lobbied your congress for it.  Laws like that are nothing but money makers.

Offline firecord

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2013, 08:29:34 am »
Side note :  NFPA. is like the BIBLE no two people read it the same! 

Online ljohnsaw

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Re: My timber frame build
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2014, 12:12:08 am »
Its been a long long long while with lots of discussion on what is really needed.  A pump supplier actually sent me the pertinent code sections that I forwarded to my engineer to read :P.  They finally said ok and redrew the plans with two heads running instead of four.  The requirement dropped from 65 gpm @ 65 psi down to 26 gpm @ 32 psi. 8)  Now that is doable off of a battery bank.  They are not sure the County will go for it but in my talking with the County, they will not interpret the code - they go by what the engineer says! :D

Now to submit the plans - oh yeah, we finally got some rain yesterday.  The last rain was way before Christmas and the last snow (6") was before Thanksgiving.  They were predicting 8-10" up at 8,000' with a few inches down at 5,000' (I'm at 5,800').  I was up there yesterday (in the pouring rain) and there was about 1" of ice in places where I almost cracked my tail bone!
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 38" cut Bandmill up to 64' - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.