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Put a point on a grade stake?

Started by Engineer, April 19, 2004, 04:46:48 PM

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Engineer

Surveyin' & engineerin' & all that bein' my business, I go through a half thousand 4' grade stakes every year, sometimes more.  I always used to buy them, at 40 cents each, but I have lots of logs and a mill now.  So, I can saw 5/4 stock for grade stakes, but I think it would be a royal pain in the butt to saw a point on each one.  :(

So, what do they use to put the points on grade stakes, and how much does it cost?  I was thinking, maybe rig up some kind of cutterhead and thread it onto my wood lathe, and then set up a jig so I could just feed each stake in to get it sharpened, like a big pencil.

Any idears?  ???

Tom

I'd use a hatchet and a jr. highschool boy that wanted to go to the movies next weekend. :)

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

karl

I used to chop four sided points on a radial arm saw with a jig to keep the angle consistant, it doesn't take too long once you get rolling. We used the blower system to suck the little scrap pieces away so they didn't become scrapnel. If I was only doing 500 or so that would prob'ly be the way for me- we made a setup since that uses two blades set at an angle to cut two sides at a time, then rotate 1/4 turn and cut the last sides- it was a whole lot cheaper than $1300. and up for a pointer and faster too.
"I ask for wisdom and strength, Not to be superior to my brothers, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy, myself"  - from Ojibwa Prayer.

sawyerkirk

We cut probably 1/2 a million stakes on a $69 Ryobi chop saw with a jig to make a longer point.

Jeff

Once you sell a landscaper or a cement contractor a stake that was pointed with a round point, they never want another saw cut point. They will always be your customer. They drive much easier and much straighter. Our cement guys use a ton of them. They have learned to re-use them. Most have made up steel driving caps to keep them from splitting. One guy uses a pneumatic hammer that hooks to his trucks air supply to drive his stakes.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Kevin_H.

We do most of ours on a band saw with a sliding jig to make the point.

 Here is a pic of the jig with a latte stake on it.


 Here is the jig, might be a little better shot


 Here it is upside down showing the runner in the bottom of the jig, this runs in the miter slot on the band saw.

We also point some on the chopsaw when the band saw gets behind, We have even pointed a whole 2 x 4 before resawing it into stakes.

Got my WM lt40g24, Setworks and debarker in oct. '97, been sawing part time ever since, Moving logs with a bobcat.

SwampDonkey

That's what I use Kevin_H, but of course I don't need a large volume. But it is quick enough. I can see Jeff B's point with the rounded stakes especially for those cement guys, since there is usually packed gravel they have to knock the stakes into and that isn't easy with a stake sharpened on 2 sides. But, if your just staking into soil its fine, and proablt cheaper if you are using your own machines to make them.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

ADfields

The surveyor across the road from me uses a radial ram and a jig that holds 25 at a wack.   He stacks them in it side by side, makes a cut, flips it and makes a 2nd cut and 25 complete survey stakes. ;)   I would think it would work for grade stakes in 4 pases, 2 cuts then reload and make 2 more.
Andy

DR_Buck


Quote.....and 25 complete survey stakes. ........would work for grade stakes in 4 pases.....


OK.....Just when I thought I knew everything  ;D.   What's the difference between a "grade stake" and a "survey stake"?
Been there, done that.   Never got caught [/b]
Retired and not doing much anymore and still not getting caught

ADfields

Around hear survey stakes are from 1/4" to 1/2" thick by 2" wide and 30" long with a point on one end.   They mostly just push them in the ground by hand to "flag" the steel pins driven in the ground as a permanent marker.   Or on the North Slope they put the blunt end on the ground and dump some watter on it and hold till it is frozen solid, don't take long. ;)   Grade stakes hear are about 3/4" by 1-1/2" and 48" long with a sharp point so they drive good with a hammer.   In campaign years you see grade stakes with vote for so and so signs all over the place up hear.   Or along side a road job you see then every 10 foot or so with +or- and a number of inches written on them in marker pen to show what the "grade" of the road bed will be at that point.   Could be different in other parts of the world but thats what they are in Alaska. ;)
Andy

Sawyerfortyish

How much are stakes? Are they worth the time to make?. Iv'e turned several surveyers away that wanted a couple hundred pointed. I just didn't have the time to bother. Is it worth buying a stake pointer? I see them advertised in the lumbermens equipment digest all the time.

Jim_Rogers

I started my sawmill business with grade stakes and hay bale stakes as a product.
Years ago I did logging for contractors and others. We would sell the eastern white pine to the local circle sawmill and yard up the hardwood saw logs.
After I did a log hauling job for a fellow, he brought me over all the left over low grade hardwood lumber that his customer didn't want. He didn't want it either, and gave it to me as a tip.
I didn't have any idea what to do with it.
One day I was in the backhoe dealer's part counter area and saw some little wooden wedges on the shelf. I asked the parts counter man what these were for after he got off the phone.
He told me the boss agreed to buy some "surveyor hubs" and "grade stakes" off some old guy who brought them in. These wedges were the hubs. I asked him: "where are the grade stakes?" He told me he sold them within a few days.
I told him I had some lumber laying around and could make some for him to sell. He said make them and bring them over and we'll see how it goes.
So I did. He sold them within a week.
I then hired the guy who was buying my hardwood saw logs to mill up my extra low grade logs into squares for me to point and make stakes. We would make 3' and 4' stakes. The 4' stake were grade stakes and the 3' stakes were for holding hale bales in place around construction sites for silt barriers.
I wasn't long before my sawmill guy said he didn't want to mill my stuff any more.
So I went out and bought my own sawmill. I haven't been happier, since.
I began selling stakes at three different locations and cut all the stakes on a miter chop saw cutting only two sides to the tip. I called these tips a chisel cut point.
A contractor who used them for grade stakes, while laying out
road beds, like the fact that my stakes didn't rotate when pounded into the gravel bed, as the regular round pencil point stakes did. This way he could position a stake with a flat side towards the center of the roadbed and then mark it for the grade needed. And the machine operator could see his marks on the side of the stake.
I used this story as a selling point for my stakes.
I also make and sell tree stakes to nursery supply houses. These stakes are 1 1/2" square and 8' long. They use these to hold newly planted trees in place until the root-ball takes hold of the ground.
When I got my second nursery supply house to order several hundred of these tree stakes, I went out and got a pencil point stake pointer.
What a difference in speed of pointing.
With a chop saw I could point maybe 3 or 4 bundles of 25 an hour. Now with the pencil pointer I can inspect, point, bundle and load onto my trailer, 8 or more bundles per hour (of regular 3' or 4' grade stakes.)
The pointer I have uses the same cutter knife that the log wizard uses. They made it with that knife on purpose, because it an easy knife to get and have sharpened.
Now as I'm cutting lumber for backhoe trailer decks, I cut boards for grade stakes. After the trailer deck job is done, I take the boards and cut them into short lengths 3' and 4' and stack them on pallets. Then I take a pallet of blanks over to the sawmill and stack 5 or 6 three or four foot boards on edge on the sawmill and cut this lumber into squares. After the blade has passed threw a stack of six 3' boards on edge you have six stakes. I grab the six stakes and toss them into a bin built on top of a pallet. Then I carry the bin pallet over to a open shed where the pointer is setup in the doorway. Then on rainy days I can point and bundle stakes for the hardware store in the next town.
They usually order 100 bundles at a time. And if the pile gets low I can just bring over 10, 15 or 20 bundles anytime and drop them off.
I've been selling them stakes for 10 years and they never seem to get enough.
Well that's my stake story, I have some photos if anyone wants to see stuff. Just let me know.
Jim Rogers
Jim Rogers Sawmill
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

SwampDonkey

That's a  8) business story Jim. :) I wish it were that easy around here. :D I've never seen grade stakes or survey stakes of any kind in hardware stores here. I have seen kindling bundles available at hardware or convenience stores though. I think most contractors make their own stakes here or they get them from outside the province. We have alot of portable sawmills in the area which are very busy, since I've never had luck hiring one for my small jobs. What milling I've had done, I took to a circular mill, dropped the logs off and picked them up at the end of the day. I have a barn full of lumber air dried and stickered since 1998. No hassles, and no half completed jobs. :) There were 3 of us on one deal that depoted each of our logs at one place for a portable mill. I wasn't going to be around for the milling and I said take some of my lumber for the cost of milling it. It was about a year before it got sawn, so the birch, basswood and elm were spoiled. I took over 1000 feet of logs and I ended up with 600 feet of lumber. I never did see my elm again, except when I picked up my lumber I noticed it stickered in with the guys oak. I decided right then and there that I'de never give my wood away again. I figured 400 feet for sawmill cost was a little steep, since it was suppose to be a cost shared project. $800 ($2/bf) was a little steep for sawing 1000 feet. The circular saw I chose to mill my logs from then on, only charged me $180/thousand.  ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Engineer

There's a mill about 20 miles from me that sells all kinds of stakes and manufactured products for wholesale - things like large dowels for CNC machines to make into small finials and tool handles, etc. Anyway, their price for stakes is about 45 cents each, in quantities less than 500.  You get 5 cents break on a thousand, another 5 cents on ten thousand.  They use a rotary pointer, have one person full time just pointing stakes.  I could keep buying them, but I figure as long as I CAN make them, why not make them.  Saves me $$$, and I charge for them anyway on all my jobs.  

There's two hardware stores locally that sell them - one sells them as "tomato" stakes in 4, 5 and 6' lengths, but they are barely 3/4" by 3/4".  If there's a knot, the stake snaps, and that's not worth it.  The other store sells legit grade stakes, at about $1.25 each.  I walked in there once, cause I was out of the cheap ones from the mill, and asked for a bundle of 25 stakes.  Guy says, that'll be 40-something bucks, and I said "I didn't wan't the gold-plated ones, just the regular grade stakes."  I walked out of there without any.  I had fifteen bucks in my pocket and that oughta buy a bundle of stakes for anybody.  

Last time I got stakes, I got them from someone else who had "borrowed" about 200 stakes for a community project and replaced them from new stock.  The stakes were all dripping green red oak, and when I broke the steel bands, I had 25 rocking chair runners sitting in the bed of my truck.  They bowed as much as three inches just sitting there.  :(

SwampDonkey

I know what you went through looking for those stakes at the hardware. The markup for such items including nails and screws or bolts is like 300 %. As bad as looking for a sports jersey in a Sports Shop instead of going to the 'Five and Dime' to get it. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

raycon

Theres a few mills locally that make stakes. Seems like consistent business for the two I know of.
Just saw this on ebay....a stake pointer $20+. Could chuck it up in a lathe  to determine the optimum rpm.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4123&item=3290884407&rd=1
Lot of stuff..

Larry

I use to saw a lot of 1" X 1" X 4' stakes for drying barn cured tobacco.  They had to have either a 4 sided point or a pencil point to fit into a metal tobacco spear.  I had a antique arm powered pointer based on the same principle as the one Jeff showed.  Put a motor on it to speed up production.  The best part was I could saw stakes all year long out of any species and the farmers would buy and pick up all of them come harvest time.  The tobacco base shrank so you can't give them away today.

Sawed a few survey stakes about the same as Jim but got a jig to cut the points on the mill before I sliced up the slabs.  They only want oak.  Marketing is the hard part but if you could get a couple of reliable buyers the rest is easy.  I never did pursue it.  Think free delivery would be a big selling point.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

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