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Pricing 1/2" vs 1 1/2"

Started by OlJarhead, April 10, 2013, 02:09:10 PM

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OlJarhead

Here's a question for you all:  if you are milling 5/8" to vs 1 5/8" how do you price?

I ask because I was doing some math on time to mill, bf rates etc and realized that since it takes the same amount of time to make a cut regardless of the board thickness there must be a 'break' point in which one size board pays better then another when charging by the board foot.

For example, if I'm milling 5/8 lumber for paneling I get about 15 boards out of a 11.5" cant whereas if I'm milling 1 5/8 then I get 6 (there will be 1" left in the cant) and by calculating the 5/8 at 1" rates I'll get 235bf out of the same log I would get only 151bf (or 166 bf if you include the 1" left over).  Obviusly the 5/8 pays better because while it does take several more passes of the mill head the time to mill is not so much more then my BF/hr rate is actually higher on the 5/8 when it is calculated as 1".

For example, if it takes me 1 minute to make a pass when milling and I mill 15 5/8 boards then it's 15 minutes to mill and if it takes me just 10 minutes to load and mill the cant to size (these are not numbers for my LT10 just in case you were wondering, I was just making an example) then my bf/hr rate is 557 (ya wouldn't that be nice)...whereas if I mill 1 5/8 at 1 minute per pass etc for 7 boards I get a rate of 547/hr.

To me this means it's always better to mill less then 1" if you can charge 1" rates??

Doesn't seem right so that's what got me asking.

If I mill true 1" lumber (rough cut) then things change a lot!  At 1" with a 1 minute pass and 10 minute setup I get 465bf/hr but 1.5" lumber yields 572 on the same CANT.  So clearly it's better to mill 1.5" then 1" but appears to be better to mill 5/8" rather then either of those.

See my point?
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

beenthere

Price by the bd. ft.   Should work out ok for you.

All is assuming that you can sell the material produced, or already have it sold.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

drobertson

It seems like there are different bdft scales when dealing with pallet cut stock, but as far It goes for me I charge by the bdft, everything up to 1-1/2 is considered 1" 1-1/2 and over is considered 2".   I don't sell much to the public, mostly all custom cut lumber.  The only thin boards I have cut have been cedar and walnut. and these were considered 1" thick.  As you mentioned, it takes the same saw time per pass regardless of thickness.   david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Magicman

Quote from: drobertson on April 10, 2013, 02:45:08 PMAs you mentioned, it takes the same saw time per pass regardless of thickness.
But you are doing different work when sawing 1½".  You finish sawing the log faster so you load and set up more logs during the work day.

Custom sawing pricing depends upon your market and the agreement that you make with the customer before sawing begins. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

woodmills1

The industry standard is all up to 1 1/8 is charged at one inch prices

then 1 1/4, then 1 1/2 and so on

I do not do this but may raise my bd ft price a bit for the thinner than one inch due to the extra cuts

I charge 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 at actual size
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Okrafarmer

For me, anything less than 1/2 inch is charged as half inch. Hasn't been an issue yet. . . .

Maybe I need to do like you guys do.

But I do sell 3/4 material sometimes and I sell it at 3/4 inch thickness, not 1 inch. The key is to always charge enough to make money.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

millwright

I cut white ash for a customer who uses it to make tobaggons, it is all cut 3/8 or 1/4 " tough to figure the rate on.

Okrafarmer

One method you can consider for tough calls is:

First sell them the logs, then sell them the labor. No board footage rates.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

OlJarhead

I wasn't very clear in my question, sorry!  What I meant was how do you charge/price your milling rate?

So the scenario might go like this:

Customer has a bunch of pine and wants it milled at 5/8.  You know it will take you longer to mill the 5/8 then 1 1/2 but if you charge at 1" rates then you'll make out better milling 5/8 then 1" or for that matter 1 1/2" because though it will take longer it will still produce more BF/hr.

So, do you charge the 1" rate because you'll earn more for your efforts or do you price it by the hour so he's not paying quite so much?

I might be over thinking the issue and it is just a hypothetical question but I'm curious (as always).
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

Okrafarmer

I don't charge hourly if I am selling wood. If I am milling someone else's wood, I charge hourly.

When selling lumber, it is important to make sure you sell it for enough to make a profit. If you have to stop and think about whether you're making a profit, you probably aren't charging enough.

Now, having said that, if you are going to do a lot of thin stuff over time, it is good to analyze it, as you are doing, and try to figure out all the ins and outs of pricing it different ways. My experience is that people who "have it all down to a science" on pricing are headed down one of two paths. Either they need to become a very big business in order to be efficient enough to make a profit and keep going, or else they go broke from not charging enough.

Now I do recommend having standardized prices that you charge everyone. It is good to have it in writing, either on your website, or on a printout, placard, or sign, showing your prices to the public. You can always choose to give a discount if you like, to any group of people you choose-- senior citizens, veterans, sunday school teachers, dog lovers, or whatever. . . .  :D
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

YellowHammer

Quote from: OlJarhead on April 10, 2013, 06:58:42 PM
So, do you charge the 1" rate because you'll earn more for your efforts
Yes, because it's a business smiley_thumbsup

Quote from: OlJarhead on April 10, 2013, 06:58:42 PM
Or price it by the hour so he's not paying so much?
No, because it's a business smiley_thumbsdown

Quote from: Okrafarmer on April 10, 2013, 10:03:59 PM
I do recommend having standardized prices that you charge everyone. It is good to have it in writing, either on your website, or on a printout, placard, or sign, showing your prices to the public.
I agree because you have to be fair and upfront to stay in business. smiley_contract
YH


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Tom the Sawyer

I have several clients for which I saw at less than 1".  I always felt bad about charging for 100 board feet out of a log that scaled 50 (rounding up to an inch), perhaps because my first exposure to milling was as a customer.  That is why my rates vary by thickness.

It does take about the same time to make a pass regardless of the thickness.  The time to raise the head and the time to pull the board increase significantly with the thickness.  Even a brawny off-bearer will slow down when pulling 8/4 slabs rather than 4/4 all day.  Your question was about thicknesses less than 1".   :P

If you are sawing a 12" wide cant that it 10' long and you mill it at 4/4 then each pass will make 10 board feet.  If your base rate is .40 per board foot then that pass was worth $4.00.  If you make the same pass at 3/4 thickness then you will make 7.5 bf.  If the time, fuel, blade wear, etc. are the same then that pass should also be worth $4.00 (.533 p/bf).  Make a pass at 2/4 would be 5 bf for $4.00 or .80 p/bf.  1/4 would be 1.60 p/bf.  When you total the board feet for the log it will be much more realistic (you will have proportionally more kerfs of course).  smiley_thumbsup

I figure board footage by 1/4" increments (3/4, 4/4, 5/4, etc.) but if you are going to do a lot of 5/8" and want to be accurate then take your base (4/4) rate and divide by .625.  e.g. .40 p/bf divided by .625 = .64 p/bf for 5/8" boards.
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If you call and my wife says, "He's sawin logs", I ain't snoring.

JustinW_NZ

I know its not quite answering your question, but just my 10c...

I only charge per hour now, then the customer can change there mind on what they want cut, and how they want it cut (as they do) and you don't have to chat about repricing etc..
And by hour its just run time on the mill.
I've found it funny now how customers will now have helpers and make sure the next log is ready to go if by the hour other than just standing a watching you fight with it...  :D

Cheers
Justin
Gear I run;
Woodmizer LT40 Super, Treefarmer C4D, 10ton wheel loader.

Banjo picker

Anything under 1" goes as a full inch...charge by the 1/4 increment for anything over...I got a stack of 1/4 stuff out here now , to be pickd up...Banjo
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

Chuck White

I charge 1" rate for 1" and under, then anything over 1" is billed at 1/4" increments!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

AdamT

I charge for a full inch as well. Anything over an inch I've been figuring it exactly as it is. Wether it's its 1 3/16 or 1 5/16.  It's a pain to figure odd thicknesses at the end if the day if there's a lot of it.

I've been thinking of going in 1/4" increments for lumber over an inch but not sure when you round up or down.

For example, if you saw lumber at 1 1/8", do you charge for 1" or 1 1/4"?

The people that charge at 1/4" increments, how do you round up or down?
Thanks!
2017 Wood-Mizer LT40HDD35-RA
2011 Wood-Mizer LT40 HD

It's better to have it and not need it then it is to need it and not have it

Magicman

Try not to over complicate it.  Establish a simple sawing and scaling rate which will be reviewed with the customer before sawing begins. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

isawlogs

 I all depends on how much one needs to saw, I had a customer bring a tandem load of oak to be sawn to 3/4­'' I sawed it by the hour, had another that had two logs within a stack that needed be sawed 5/8'', that was b/f rate at an inch. One needs be comfortable with what he charges without over pricing his work, and keeping things simple works so much better in the long run.
 
  Okra, it does take as many battens as it does boards, sawing the battens out of the last board makes alot of sense too. You can put four or five peices the with of the battens on the mill at a time to saw, these peices could be the last board of your logs... Last peice could be sawed to the thickness of whatever width your battens will be...
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

OlJarhead

Quote from: isawlogs on April 11, 2013, 08:39:57 AM
I all depends on how much one needs to saw, I had a customer bring a tandem load of oak to be sawn to 3/4­'' I sawed it by the hour, had another that had two logs within a stack that needed be sawed 5/8'', that was b/f rate at an inch. One needs be comfortable with what he charges without over pricing his work, and keeping things simple works so much better in the long run.
 
  Okra, it does take as many battens as it does boards, sawing the battens out of the last board makes alot of sense too. You can put four or five peices the with of the battens on the mill at a time to saw, these peices could be the last board of your logs... Last peice could be sawed to the thickness of whatever width your battens will be...

I like that idea.  Thanks
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

Fla._Deadheader


I didn't see anyone mention twice as many cuts = twice as much saw blade changes or sharpens. That has added cost in down time and cost to resharpen.

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   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

LeeB

I charge by the BF with anything under 1"considered 1" x width x length. 6/4, 8/4, whatever, all gets charged at the samerate. Price is calculated on volume totals with the exception being anything under 1".
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

mesquite buckeye

Quote from: JustinW_NZ on April 11, 2013, 06:00:22 AM
I know its not quite answering your question, but just my 10c...

I only charge per hour now, then the customer can change there mind on what they want cut, and how they want it cut (as they do) and you don't have to chat about repricing etc..
And by hour its just run time on the mill.
I've found it funny now how customers will now have helpers and make sure the next log is ready to go if by the hour other than just standing a watching you fight with it...  :D

Cheers
Justin

That is a great point. Custom sawing is faster and more fun when the customer helps. Hopefully not idiots, though and get hurt. 
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

beenthere

QuoteHopefully not idiots, though and get hurt.

There are many people who I would say are not 'idiots' but they still get hurt. ;)

And many who just do not know what to do when around a sawmill, but are also not 'idiots' IMO. 

But then for me, an idiot is someone who takes drugs, etc. and trashes their life that way.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Peter Drouin

Anything under 1" is buy the hr , anything over 36" log is buy the hr, all else is bf

Had a guy want to cut 3/8" and 5/8" for apple boxes, he cut to length, all buy the hr :D :D

  

  

  

 

Apple trees as far as you can see, have to love the accuset :D :D :D ;D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

mesquite buckeye

Beenthere. I think your definition is narrower than mine.

I would include smart idiots, unsafe idiots, etc.

Not that they are not nice people. ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

beenthere

Then I guess you are saying we are all idiots, of one form or another. ;)

Now we just need to figure out which idiot "we" are.....   :snowball:
:)


Myself, I do reserve the term 'idiot' for a very narrow group of people. I put it very near to the "stupid" classification.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

mesquite buckeye

Well...... you could check out who we elect to run the country. ::)
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

jbpaxton

My Customers want bft of lumber, What I do is manufacture saw dust.  I can produce about so much saw dust an hour so I charge by the hour that covers my cost plus profit to make the saw dust.

Jim
jbpaxton

Okrafarmer

I should clarify that when I mill a customer's wood that they own, I have my hourly charge ($50), plus $10 for each blade change after the first one (which is a freebee). If I hit metal and/or damage a blade due to a problem with the log, I charge $25 per trashed blade.

If I am selling my own wood to someone else, all the blade costs are hidden to the buyer and I charge enough for the wood to cover expense. I hope.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

OlJarhead

Quote from: mesquite buckeye on April 11, 2013, 04:37:23 PM
Well...... you could check out who we elect to run the country. ::)

Proof positive! lol
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

Okrafarmer

I'm pretty sure I'm the only idiot of my type.  ;D
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

mesquite buckeye

This is good to know. ;D ;D ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

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