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Taper in logs.

Started by ohwc, April 09, 2013, 09:46:53 AM

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ohwc

I have read a few topics and know this has been covered. But I just wanted someone with more experience to double check me on this. If I am sawing for max. quality I put the taper in the pith and saw level to the bark. If I am making beams with a pith in them I take the taper out of the bark to center the pith.

I know that is simplifying it down as there are many other factors to consider but is this correct?

qbilder

That's the way I do it.
God bless our troops

POSTON WIDEHEAD

OHWC.....sorry to get off your question, but I would love to see a larger picture of your Avatar.
Thanks, David
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

trapper

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on April 09, 2013, 11:11:32 AM
OHWC.....sorry to get off your question, but I would love to see a larger picture of your Avatar.
Thanks, David
Go to the bottom of your monitor and increse the zoom level.  Thats what I do to you ;D ;D
stihl ms241cm ms261cm  echo 310 400 suzuki  log arch made by stepson several logrite tools woodmizer LT30

Jay C. White Cloud

you got it... :)  remember

Quote"Board to Bark-Post to Pith"

This little saying is what I teach my students, it helps them think about it and the way trees grow.  It is O.K. to bend the rule as long as you know what the guidelines are.  One young bright fellow said his grand father taught him:

Quote"Bark is on the board and the pith is in the post"

"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

beenthere

The quality wood in a log is just below the bark as growth added in the later years. Better to have that quality wood in the board rather than in the slab pile (if that is the goal).

You are right in your brief explanation, and there are a gazillion decisions to make while getting it done.  ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

ohwc

 

 
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on April 09, 2013, 11:11:32 AM
OHWC.....sorry to get off your question, but I would love to see a larger picture of your Avatar.
Thanks, David

Here you go David. Its a singer sewing base that I washed with Oxalic Acid lightly mixed since it was a rust bucket of a base. Neutralized with water baking soda mix. Hammered paint.

Top is a spalted oak I took out for a customer as it was dead. Hand planed. Did have some tear out that I was going to smooth out but the boss likes the rough look on her TV stand.

Anyway pretty simple but we think it looks cool. And apparently I am more bone headed than I thought since I am having a hard time uploading the pic for you. Got it.


drobertson

Nice Base to the sewing machine!  and yes, if I understand correctly what you are saying, this is how I do it.  Logs with a sweep will pose a lil problem, but nothing is perfect in timbers all the time.    david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Nice job on the Singer and Slab.......very nice.  smiley_thumbsup
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Dave Shepard

If you saw parallel to the bark, how do you line up the cant after you've rotated it a couple of times?
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Magicman

Lay the cant on the sawmill bark down and saw the tapered pith off of it.   ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi Dave,

I will take a stab at an answer, but it is going to be a little "squishy," I'm sure someone else will do better. 

First it depends, of course on the bolt, and what you want, (can get) out of it.  If it is pretty uniform for end to end, you can just fletch cut through and through, keep them all together as a group and you don't make a cant at all out of it.  I see this commonly done in Europe and generally overseas with "slabbed" bolts.

If you have a real nice log, let say an Elm for example. It's got a lot of tapper end for end over a 3.6 m (~12') bolt, and  I want nice boards out of it.  I would probably level the blade to the bark, and take real nice fletch cuts down through the bolt till I was near the pith, (50 mm to 75 mm ~2" to 3" away) then role it all the way over, and do the same thing from the other side.  Now I have a wedge shape center slab with the pith in it; which in Elm is real "naughty" wood most of the time, so I would have to consider the piece and what it could yield, maybe more boards or just two nice slabs, which is more likely the case.  If I chose the latter, I would split the pith, and even out the slab, or I would go for maybe a pith center 150 mm (~6") by what ever it would yield, for a post or beam.

That is just one case scenario, but should give you an idea.  Each case is different, but if follows the adage.

"Board to Bark-Post to Pith"
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Jay C. White Cloud

 :D :D...or just do what Magic said, in fewer words, and about the same results... ;D

Thanks Magicman!
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

WDH

If it is a lower grade log, I just put the best face down (on the mill bed) and the worser face on the top.  That way you will be sawing parallel to the bark on the best face.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Magicman

 :D  Just saw the pith out of it.   :-X :-X 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

drobertson

confused as usual, I thought the question was referring to sawing beams, and keeping the  pith centered.  In this case, I put the butt off a bed rail, and fuzz cut the swell. rotate, and fuzz cut the swell, keeping the pith or center, centered, then repeat, and repeat again. Resulting in a log that has a reasonably centered pith, or center. Then set a pattern to retrieve the most lumber in whatever form, 1" or 2", with a result that will give the desired end product, still maintaining the centered pith for a beam with a centered pith.   Lots of cuts, but a centered pith beam.  I guess, I am just a bit backwards,  but it works for me,   david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Magicman

Quote from: ohwc on April 09, 2013, 09:46:53 AMIf I am sawing for max. quality I put the taper in the pith and saw level to the bark. If I am making beams with a pith in them I take the taper out of the bark to center the pith. 

I know that is simplifying it down as there are many other factors to consider but is this correct?

Actually the way I read the OP, he asked two different questions.  One for max. quality (saw with the bark) and then the second for beams (saw with the pith). 

Most of the conversation then centered on how to remove the tapered pith section when sawing for quality.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

woodweasel

I am totally confused!! ??? ???

Magicman

Which is understandable.  Some sawing operations are rather difficult to describe.  At least for me.   :-\
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Jay C. White Cloud

Magicman, you have done the best thus far for keeping it clear and less confusing, I get to long winded and go into teacher mode.  This is not a simple thing to explain and has many variables to it and the decisions you must make when milling.

From just a thinking perspective, my students do well with internalizing the concepts of wood out of a log with the little adage I shared earlier, it's simple and to the point, for a complex process.

"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

kelLOGg

I've read that sawing parallel to the bark produces the best quality lumber but I have rarely done it. A few questions:

After sawing parallel to the bark do you then edge each board? If so, that's a lot of handling which nobody has mentioned, so I think I am missing something.

Also, for us with manual mills, you would never have to rotate the the log which is an advantage, right? Just put the log on the mill, level the top bark side and cut to near the pith, lower the bottom bark side to the bunks, cut out the wedge containing the pith and continue cutting to the bottom. At some point I guess you'd best rotate for stability but by then the log has lost a lot of weight.
Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

dboyt

Thanks for the postings.  I am learning (slowly) a lot from FF!  I've always sawn level to the pith, whether boards or cants, but I see the logic of what you're saying.  So a couple of questions...
Would it make sense to cut parallel to the pith for the first slab cut, flip the log 180°, and make another slabbing cut parallel to the pith, then rotate 90° and start the process of cutting parallel to the bark?  Seems there would be less edging to do that way.
I get a premium for quartersawn oak & sycamore.  Am I missing something, or does this technique pretty much eliminate the possibility of quarter sawing?
Norwood MX34 Pro portable sawmill, 8N Ford, Lewis Winch

Magicman

Fact is, good Oak logs seldom have more than an inch taper so all of this kinda gee whiz with me.  I will saw parallel to the bark to eliminate a pith situation and gain more lumber.

kelLOGg, it does not cause me to do any more edging, but I do have to use the toe board before the pith wedge is removed. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

WDH

On logs without a lot of taper, choose your best two faces.  Open the log with the best face down on the bed.  This best face is flat on the bunks, so when you turn this face 180 degrees to saw it, you are sawing parallel to the bark.  When you put the best faces down, and then make your initial cuts on the opposite (180 degrees) face, you are creating a situation where you will be sawing the "best" wood parallel to the bark when you turn the cant 180 degrees and begin sawing the best face.  I usually slab the log to create a cant, and then saw the best faces for grade.  This requires a good bit of cant turning to maximize the grade.  Sometimes I will sacrifice grade for more wide boards, but generally, I will cut a narrower board over one a little wider one if the narrower board has a higher grade.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Ga Mtn Man

Bibbyman put this in the Knowledge Base years ago:

https://forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/tips/tips.cgi?display:1053087496-16591.txt

There's an awful lot to be learned by taking some time to read through the topics in the Knowledge Base.  Just scroll up and click "Extras". :P smiley_whip
"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 LogRite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

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