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Logger Shortage Real or Hype?

Started by PAFaller, April 07, 2013, 11:20:47 AM

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PAFaller

Maybe Im late to the game but I just got my March/April edition of a prominent industry magazine, and this issues focus was logging capacity and changes going forward. I agreed with much of what was written, things like regulations becoming more cumbersome, tier 3 and 4 engines becoming more complex to fix, and that the workforce is aging. But the thing I can't quite wrap my head around is this idea that somehow there is a shortage of guys working in the woods these days. Now I admit, I am a small fish in a big ocean and don't have an all seeing crystal ball, but it seems as though there is some discrepancy between a loggers point of view and the mills point of view. There is a big difference between not being able to get wood, and not being able to get wood as cheap as we would like. Its certainly in the wood buyers best interest to have an over-production of wood that keeps prices super low. To me it seems less guys may be working in the woods, but in these major wood producing areas like the southeast most all the big crews are fully mechanized. Half the men can do triple the work with machines that continue to get bigger and faster. Sure there are still places, like the hills of PA where I am, that will always have a need for a chainsaw slinger, but even here mechanization is taking off. CTL Logger is not too horribly far from me and running a real nice CTL setup, other crews have had great success with tree-length systems and in woods clean chipping etc. And these crews are certainly staying plenty busy, but even friends of mine with a lot of iron are on quotas again. They are paying the bills, but winter has been good for logging and the mills are full. The next 2-3 months may mean just treading water, doing enough to make the payments, and hope things open up a bit more. On the sawmill side lumber seems to be moving, but there aren't any mills in my area crying for logs either. So maybe Im a bit cynical, but this shortage seems to be more hype than reality.
It ain't easy...

Autocar

The mill I sell to comes in spurts, this time of year they have there yard pretty full then later they get short but wheat harvest comes and before you know it there full again. Sawing near 75,000 ft. a shift they eat alot of logs. As far as up coming young loggers a veneer buyer told me a few years back that companys were looking for good hand fallers and couldn't find any. Said south of me they couldn't find any help. But as we all know this past month your on top then the next your wondering why anyone in there right mind would get in this line of work  :D . I work with old equipment I can pretty well tear it apart and put it back togather in my sleep with know payments I just plug along and do pretty good. Like the name the old logging movie Henry Fonda stared in [ Never Give A Inch ] just keep going forward  ;).
Bill

kiko

It is real and hype. Around here what I have seen most the larger operators that once had multiple crews have drawn it in to one, however many are running two loaders on the same landing. The mills are crying logger shortage because I feel they know they may have to to start paying the logger enough to survive. The coming logger shortage will come quickly if there is any sudden jump in cost as these mills have held the loggers at the break even point for so long. Keep in mind that it is in the mills best interest to buy their raw materials as cheap as possible. The loggers banding together to force a price increase will not work because one of those loggers about to loose his house and every thing else is going to haul all they will take, and could you blame him? The mils have figured out for the loggers. How much the fixed expenses are and how many tons it will take to cover those. They do not allow for much if any reserve to be built up to cover break downs which spread out might be ok but they come in bunches. With modern equipment an engine failure15k, trans 25k, axle another 15k.  Many loggers would have to throw in the towel if any of these majors came back to back. Some have been pushed 7.50 a ton to put it on the truck thinking they will make it production only to find that the equipment payed the price and will no longer make production as it destroyed after 3 or 4 years. One skidder pulling 18 or 20 , 26 ton loads a day for 4 years, you get the picture. What about all the others with their new pickups and 300 hundred dollar boots wanting 1 or 2 dollar a ton cut. I could go on and on. The kid that posted about wanting to be logger should look elsewhere for a career,I just did not  have the heart to break it to him. We need young men that are willing to work. Working seven days a week only to find your children grown and your income still depending on getting in the road before 5 am every day. It is a love hate relationship for myself.

240b

I think its a regional issue and more one of a lack of people being able to manually fell valuable trees. There is no shortage of high production mechanical operators, just manual ones able to do quality work. 

Corley5

Insurance rates are a whole let less for an operator in a cab than one on the ground with a chainsaw  :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Black_Bear

Quote from: 240b on April 07, 2013, 04:53:43 PM
I think its a regional issue....

Regions throughout the U.S. and Canada definitely have different levels of logging capacity and actual logging availability. if you live in New England, New York or Quebec you may find some of Andy Egan's publications interesting. For quite a few years now he and several others have been studying the socioeconomic side of logging in the northeast region. A simple Google search will provide many results, but here is one report:

http://nsrcforest.org/sites/default/files/uploads/eganfull04.pdf


240b

I remember filling out that survey years ago.

Timbercruiser

I know up here most of out paper and pulp mills are closed. All the saw mills too and the ones that are running arnt doing so well. Its reality here in Canada how bad the wood market is. We cant sell any private wood at all so if you cut your own lot you cant sell any of it.  :( Hope it gets better for everyone

ABTS

Yes I feel for the ones that are hurt the most .I have family in Pembroke Ont. Boy did they feel the hit when the housing market went . They still haven't recovered. I remember as a kid seing all those logs piled so high at the mills it seem they would never run out .Now I go up to visit and most are closed or just running to make ends meet . Tough times.

1270d

If you read the magazine I am thinking of it was completely accurate.  No hype.   It is very difficult to find good quality long term employees.

It seems the logging outfits are in place to supply the mills but they can't compete with the wages etc offered by the mines and mills.  Not many are willing to take the pay cut to work in the bush.  So I guess its not a logger shortage but an operator shortage.

SwampDonkey

What drives the availability of loggers is mill capacity and price of wood, not the other way around. We have some mills here that keep prices low because they don't need private wood, they have freehold lands and crown and they can shut off woodlot owners all together. This is because of a former premier being in the pocket of the big guys and allowed crown land timber to become competition to woodlots. In fact, if a commercial mill here doesn't get a license for wood volumes off public lands it don't get built, simple as that.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

James Arsenault

I was talking with a 65 year old forester a few days ago. He told me he prefers cable skidders and chainsaws on the woodlots he manages as oppossed to mechanical outfits, but can no longer find enough quality hand loggers to keep up with the work he has for them, like he could in the not so distant past.


KBforester

I had a wood buyer at a mill tell me that. It was from a mills perspective. In other words, it was him trying to tell me they pay too much for the sawlogs that they buy. If there were more loggers out there, then he could get cheaper wood, and it would "secure" the industry. If the mill doesn't do well, than nobody does well. But I tell you, loggers can't go much longer with this "good" price they're getting with diesel being as high as it is. There has to be a radical change in the industry soon or we'll just stop cutting wood here, and depend more an more on other countries producing it cheaper. Logging and farming both.
Trees are good.

thecfarm

Maybe if those buyers had to be on the other end of that "stick" than they would change thier mind quick. Both on the price and the way the wood is cut and brought out. It's easy to stand someplace and say what they would like in thier little world.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

SwampDonkey

The mills have proven themselves to be the least efficient and least productive cutting wood with their own company loggers. That is why they contract it all out now so they can squeeze their fists a little tighter and get as much for nothing as they can before it comes to a halt. When you get too big you carry a lot of dead beat weight not producing much per man hour.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tmac47

Quote from: SwampDonkey on April 09, 2013, 11:47:56 AM
The mills have proven themselves to be the least efficient and least productive cutting wood with their own company loggers. That is why they contract it all out now so they can squeeze their fists a little tighter and get as much for nothing as they can before it comes to a halt. When you get too big you carry a lot of dead beat weight not producing much per man hour.

Speaking of dead beat weight...  From my very limited viewpoint, it seems like most logging companies hold career fairs outside the local prison and offer jobs to whoever's walking out the door that day.

On the other side of the spectrum, most kids graduating from college these days can't find a job and have thousands of dollars in student loans to pay off.  Changing up the trend for how logging companies recruit employees would be a good start to ending the dead beat characteristic within the industry.  I could easily see very capable people, who have recently graduated college, taking up the reigns on this side of the industry.

Regardless of how much you're paying per hour, you can always find 5 star employees within that range.  If you can't, well then you're looking in the wrong place.  Hire slow, fire fast.  That's just my two cents.  I could be off on my initial analysis...

beenthere

QuoteThe mills have proven themselves to be the least efficient and least productive cutting wood with their own company loggers. That is why they contract it all out now

Has not so much to do with efficiency and production of the mill crew, as it has to do with the bottom line. Accountants look at the cost of keeping a company logging crew and the cost of laying them off when they don't need logs. Unemployment costs run high.
No company crew and buying wood on the other hand is simpler and avoids such costs, as it is up to the logging company to deal with a low demand for logs.

The results are the same, regardless of the suspected reasons. ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

SwampDonkey

Unemployment costs the government, the mill isn't sending out unemployment cheques. The mill always made use of the system to their advantage just as the fish processing plants have. I've never heard of any job fairs by prisons. The only ones I see are at colleges in these parts and it's most definitely not loggers doing the fairs. It's trades people most of the time looking for educated and experienced folks. If you have no trade, they don't want ya. It is also forest companies reps looking for foresters and technicians to look after company operations. Not looking for truck drivers and processor operators. Those are usually job placement adds in papers and websites.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

240b

Quote from: beenthere on April 09, 2013, 12:20:31 PM
QuoteThe mills have proven themselves to be the least efficient and least productive cutting wood with their own company loggers. That is why they contract it all out now

Has not so much to do with efficiency and production of the mill crew, as it has to do with the bottom line. Accountants look at the cost of keeping a company logging crew and the cost of laying them off when they don't need logs. Unemployment costs run high.
No company crew and buying wood on the other hand is simpler and avoids such costs, as it is up to the logging company to deal with a low demand for logs.

The results are the same, regardless of the suspected reasons. ;)
Even better for the bottom line. is to move the whole mill to brazil or chile, the gov't there, probably build you your own deep water port and what ever else you need, no osha or unions...  sad but true.   

240b

I thought unenjoyment insurance was funded by the employers, paying into the pool? not taken out the gov't general fund.. different country..

SwampDonkey

Yes, but not paying into it when someone isn't working. It's only costing them when someone is working.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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