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Started by mainiac, April 03, 2013, 07:50:03 PM

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mainiac

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on the new diesels in todays 3/4 and srw one ton pickups? Have never owned a diesel pickup, but am considering replacing my gasser with one this year. Or should I just stay with a new gasser? I use mine for plowing, 2yd sander, and towing a lawn mower and dump trailer.

Thanks
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.

bill m

IMHO don't waste your money. It's not that the diesels are bad it's just that I don't think you will ever save any money. Most diesel options cost about $7000 more than a gas engine and with the cost of diesel fuel being more then gas I don't see any savings.
Example:
30,000 miles a year
gas 15 mpg       diesel  20 mpg
$3.80 / gal        $4.20 / gal.
$7600 / year      $6300 / year
It would take 5.3 years to see any savings
These figures are from my location and mileage estimates are from local dealer advertisements.
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chevytaHOE5674

Diesel maintenance is also more costly, and the new diesels have all kinds of emissions equipment that have really cut their fuel economy back as well.

Dave Shepard

To justify it on a strictly financial basis, you'd have to work it pretty hard for the fuel saving to make up for the initial cost, I think. Now if you are open to other means of justification, it's not too hard to talk oneself into a diesel. Yes, there is the initial investment, however when that truck gets sold, you get a lot of that back in a higher resale value than the gas version of the same truck. I don't know of any gas engine in todays trucks that will tow like a diesel, and if it does, then there is something wrong with the diesel.  :D
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woodandtractors

I bought my first diesel in late '08 having had 3('85,'89,'99) new 454 powered one-ton 2WD dump trucks. All 3 got 8mpg loaded with 1.5 cords of wood or 9cu. yds. of bark mulch.Running empty about 10mpg. The diesel,which at 9800lbs. with driver,is easily the heaviest truck I've owned. When new it got 10mpg loaded,12mpg empty and towing a flat trailer. The Duramax/Allison combo cost $10,000(sticker)and came equipped with the most poorly thought out emissions system imagineable. I should have bought a new 2007,but didn't do any research first-all I knew was the biggest gas engine offered was a 6-litre,which makes a nice pickup engine but I wanted to haul a load. If you love POWER,and can pay for it,buy a diesel. The emission systems have been improved(less troublesome)but I,m not sure about the mileage.
Mike
Still plays with tractors-IH of course!

bill m

Dave, you are absolutely correct about resale. As for towing I think it depends on what you are towing. If it's a landscape trailer with lawn mowers I think a gas engine would be fine but a bigger trailer 10 - 12,000 lbs. gvw or bigger a diesel may be the best option.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

VictorH

I have a dodge 2500 with the Cummins diesel, 6 speed manual.  I would not buy or pay for a new one - but bought a 5 yr old truck and love it.  I went from getting 8-12 mpg from my gasser dodge to getting 16-20 from this one.

dukndog

I have a '03 F250 and the one thing I didn't see mentioned is the extended life of the diesel. Most average 300k miles. Biggest problem I've had is broken windshield, front hub bearings and seat wore out!!
When I got it, diesel was $.50 cheaper a gallon than gas, then the govt. went to the low sulphur diesel which drove the price up. Now they have the newer diesel law with the "hippie juice" additive which is required on all new trucks. The left over '12 Rams don't require the additive, but all the trucks now do from '13 forward.
I use mine daily and hope it lasts another 10 years before I need to get another one.
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chevytaHOE5674

If maintained correctly any newer gas truck should have the same life expectancy as a diesel. There are tons and tons of newer GM 5.3 and 6.0L trucks with 300K plus miles on them and the motors have never been opened up. Years ago that argument was valid but anymore gassers just keep on running.

celliott

On the longevity issue, here in the northeast I think that's a moot point. Unless you put ALOT of miles on your vehicle every year, or don't drive it in the winter, you are more likely to have rust issues before you actually "wear" an engine out, gas or diesel. I've seen 2007ish trucks with the bed already rusted through. Road salt is bad news, I'd rather drive on packed snow and sand.
Chris Elliott

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Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

log cutter

Well I will stay with the diesels. My 97 dodge 2500 has 469,000 miles on it and still going strong. We have three and between them 1.2 million miles. If you are towing heavy loads an exhaust brake will save your brakes. I have several friends who have more miles than i do.
1990 with over 500.000 miles. 2 97's 1 with 469,000 and 1 with 313,000 
Timbco 475E

sawguy21

We have an 05 Ram six pack diesel and love it for towing our small fifth wheel. We can run all day on one tank of fuel and have yet to find a hill that makes it grunt. I would never go back to gas
As a daily driver it has it's drawbacks. Mileage is likely on par with a similar sized gasser and with the price of fuel it gets hard on the wallet. It rides a little stiff empty and the missus does not like parking it. Quite frankly I am scared to let her. :D
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

tyb525

Durability and longevity is still better with diesel. 300K is just breaking the engine in, especially with a Cummins. I know a guy who tows fifth wheels for a living with his early 2000's F350 powerstroke, he's got over 500k on the engine now and it's still running strong. If you're doing real work with the truck, can't beat a diesel. The torque is so much better. Plus the resale value is better.

If you're just commuting in the truck not hauling much, gas might be better. But IMO, diesels just have a bigger "cool factor" than gas. I know that doesn't mean anything in the real world, but I guess that's the guy in me ;)

The downside is the newer diesels with emissions crap. I would try to find one made before all that was a requirement.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

mainiac

Thank you for all the replies people. I need to clarify a couple of points. I am buying a 2013 new truck extended cab 4x4. If I go gas, I am getting either 4.10(chevy) or 4.30(ford) gears or I am buying a diesel. While I do haul a 14k gvw dump trailer, it is short runs delivering firewood mostly under 20 miles loaded. I run a 9'6" V plow and plow mostly residentials. I deliver 75-100 cord of firewood each year and now the wife and I are looking for a camper.

The real question I have I guess is for the life long diesel enthusiast, would you still choose a new diesel of today or a gasser with how they have advanced them?

My current truck is a 2009 Chevy 3500hd 4x4 with the 6.0 gas with 3.73 gears. I never really checked mpg with it, but if I had to guess, I am around 10. Maybe 8 loaded.
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.

snowstorm

Quote from: mainiac on April 04, 2013, 05:24:30 AM
Thank you for all the replies people. I need to clarify a couple of points. I am buying a 2013 new truck extended cab 4x4. If I go gas, I am getting either 4.10(chevy) or 4.30(ford) gears or I am buying a diesel. While I do haul a 14k gvw dump trailer, it is short runs delivering firewood mostly under 20 miles loaded. I run a 9'6" V plow and plow mostly residentials. I deliver 75-100 cord of firewood each year and now the wife and I are looking for a camper.

The real question I have I guess is for the life long diesel enthusiast, would you still choose a new diesel of today or a gasser with how they have advanced them?

My current truck is a 2009 Chevy 3500hd 4x4 with the 6.0 gas with 3.73 gears. I never really checked mpg with it, but if I had to guess, I am around 10. Maybe 8 loaded.
i heard you were looking at new trucks. you know what i think ford and diesel. i tried a new 6.7 ford they go real well. plowing you will use about half the fuel with diesel vs gas. the ford trans is yrs ahead of gm

mainiac

Thanks snowstorm,

Yes, I know your beliefs. You say Ford is ahead of GM for transmissions. Does that include Allison transmissions?

Did I hear that you were bragging up the Ford 6.2 gasser? I had to ask if we were talking about you a couple of times and that we were talking about the 6.2.
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.

snowstorm

everyone seems to like the allison but it only comes with the dmax dosent it? i havent driven the 6.2 ford gas. you found the ford to be 2k less than a gm is that right? where was the best price on the ford? rockland?

mainiac

The one price quote(thus far) on Ford has been from commercial truck sales at Quirk. $38,500 for a F350(srw) extended cab 4x4 automatic diesel. Plow prep, tow prep including tow mirrors, power/heated mirrors, power windows, vinal floor, and (what concerns me) 3.55 gears(lowest I can get with the diesel without getting a F450). I do not know what it has for a seat yet.

Chevy is a 2500hd with same options/set up, but I would need to add air bags for $40,500 from Dutch. Dmax with Allison(only setup I can get) with 3.73 gears. Only difference between 3500hd and 2500hd is one leaf spring in the rear stack.

Exact replacement of my truck is $30,000.

I have not started pushing them for best price as of yet, but will play them all against each other when I get there.
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.

snowstorm

try the dealer in rockland. dont worry about the 3.55 rear. the auto trans is a 6 speed. my 5sp auto is geared way lower in first than my older 4 sp auto. i know someone with 2 of the new 6.7 ford diesels. a f350 and a f550 he is very impressed

isawlogs

 Before jumping into a newer diesel I would have to really crunch the numbers hard. Also would need to get together with a few of my deisel mechanic friends and pick there brains over this. I have a power stroke at the moment and I am very happy with the torque it has with a loaded deck over trailer. I am just waiting to warmer weather to see if how good fuel millage will get.      move_it move_it
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Norm

Depends on how you are going to use it. I have the new 6.7 diesel snowstorm talked about and average 18mpg doing 60mph on the hwy. I haul really heavy loads and have a buddy with a ford with the big gas engine. I can out tow him hands down and actually burn less fuel than he does. As for durability and ride the new fords with the 6.7 can't be beat, mine rides as good as my escalade. The kicker is upfront costs for the engine and fuel is higher priced. If you're not going to be working it hard I'd look at the gasser but I'm a diesel truck guy and always will be.

isawlogs

 Norm, how is that diesel's fuel millage in the winter compared to the summer, any difference?
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

chevytaHOE5674

My dad has a 2500hd with a 6.0L and a 6 speed auto trans behind it. Empty he averages close to 20mpg at 60mph and when he needs to tow 12k lbs it gets the job done without any trouble.

I have an old IH 6.9 diesel that I built up with a 5 speed manual behind it. I average 21-22mpg empty at 60mph, and can tow that 12k lbs with much less effort and get better fuel economy while towing.

But the only reason I have a diesel is that I only use the truck for towing or hauling something. The truck stays parked for weeks on end if nothing heavy needs to get moved. Daily driving it is just a money waster between the more expensive fuel and diesel "quirks" to have to deal with. For lighter duty towing/hauling, running around, and plowing snow my gasser gets the job done easier and cheaper.

Norm

I haven't noticed any difference Marcel.

This engine uses UREA to meet the clean air standards and the harder you run it the more it uses but I have not really noticed a significant difference doing so in my experience after using it for over 2 years now. I run this truck hard and don't baby it, we haul hay on a 35' gooseneck overloaded and haul equipment the same way (we are in a very rural area). I have not had one thing go wrong with it in those 2 years.

OlJarhead

New diesels can't be chipped (ok they can but it voids warranty) and must have the additive added at fuel up time (more $$ more pain in the rear etc etc)....

I think it's better to get a slightly used model because it's cheaper, more likely to get better mileage and did I say cheaper? lol
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snowstorm

to get better fuel mileage with an older truck you will have to go back over 10 yrs. in 04 they started using egr. in 08 it was egr and dpf mileage went down. now with def the mileage has come up a lot

gspren

  I have a 2013 F450 equipped to pull a 14,000 lb 5th wheel. I have a 65 gal Titan Tank replacement fuel tank on order. We previously towed with a 6.4 Powerstroke and a Duramax/Allison and I like the way Ford kept their duallys lower in the bed than GM or Ram which is better for towing and work in general. If you like diesels you will never be happy towing with gassers but if you don't really like diesels you can justify staying with gas. As to long range cost, I don't care!
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pappy19

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on April 03, 2013, 09:26:26 PM
If maintained correctly any newer gas truck should have the same life expectancy as a diesel. There are tons and tons of newer GM 5.3 and 6.0L trucks with 300K plus miles on them and the motors have never been opened up. Years ago that argument was valid but anymore gassers just keep on running.

I certainly agree with this and in fact, there are very few diesels out there that go 300k without an injector pump, glow plugs, or some other fuel issue which will cost a bundle. I know of many Ford V-10's with nearly 300k and a whole bunch with over 200k, not to mention the thousands of F-150's with 300k. Not that uncommon anymore. I've had diesels in the past, but the maintenance alone plus the initial cost factors don't make it worth it to me.
2008 F-250 V-10
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1996 Ford Bronco
Kubota 900 RTV
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mainiac

Test drove a 2013 F350 supercab 4x4 diesel today. I am very impressed. It was comfortable and very peppy. ;) My next step will be to test drive the Dmax, but it has its work cut out to impress me over the Ford.

Also found a brand new 2009 tag a long camper to go behind it. Might be a package deal in the works.

Thank you all for the feed back. Still interested in people's opinions before I pull the trigger on something.
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.

Magicman

I am well pleased with the driving comfort of my 2012 F250, but I have no Diesel or Duramax experience.
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woodandtractors

As Snowstorm said,the older trucks will get better mpg. My '08 will do 10 mpg in cold weather,partly because of warmup time. Fueled up and checked mileage Friday,it's back up to 12 again. Here in NH,as yet there's no check to see if all exhaust components are in place,so a tuner and a muffler help the mileage. I don't use my truck for much but work,so power is more important to me.
Waiting to hear how impressed you are with the Duramax.
Mike
Still plays with tractors-IH of course!

scsmith42

I have an '08 F450 with the 6.4 diesel that I use primarily for towing.  Most of my CGVW is in excess of 40K lbs.  Once it was out of warranty I made a few modifications to the engine, and am really pleased with the results (50% increase in fuel mileage and WOW the power is incredible).

I've been making some 120 miles trips to the concentration yard bringing back logs.  This last trip had a combined gross of 43K and 10.2 MPG average round trip. 

My truck has the King Ranch package, and the comfort level is very high.  It also has 4WD and 4.88 gears.  If I had it to do over again, I'd go with 4:30's, considering the weight that I routinely tow. 

I just don't see a gas truck providing me with the pulling power and fuel mileage that I'm getting.
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customsawyer

It has been a long time since I have owned a gas pickup. I like the way the diesels work and consider the extra cost one of the expenses of my business. It sounds like you do enough towing and plowing that you will enjoy the benefits of the diesels.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
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Ken

My 05 Chev is the first diesel I've owned.  The 6.6 duramax works great and knock on wood I haven't had any issues with the motor yet and it has just over 300K kms (180K miles) .  Although a gas motor would be adequate most times the diesel is sure nice when I pull my dump trailer.  I get between 17 and 20 mpg.
Lots of toys for working in the bush

snowstorm

the guy that helped with my rottne is gm all the way. he works for a large landscape co. they have quite a few 5500 gmc,s with plow and wing sander setup. he says most have had 2 sets of injectors by 40000 miles have broken several rearends this winter. they also have several new f550,s. he says have been real good. and stand up much better

johnjbc

In 1994 I had an 1982 dodge with a 318 and after installing smaller jets, lowering the float level and advancing the timing I go it up to 12 mpg (9 haling the pickup camper and pulling the boat).
I bought a new 1994 with the $6000 Cummings option.. Loaded up the camper and hooked up the boat, and went on vacation. Got 17 mpg. Did the math and the payback on the diesel option was about 82K miles. I still have the truck and it has 150k on it. It has a few dents and a little rust on the door bottoms. If I were selling it I would ask $6k and you can buy gas models like it for under 1500. Used 12 valve 6BT engines start 2k and the 5 sp are about the same. So I have doubled my 6K diesel option.
Would I buy another diesel, you bet.

Just had this 09 shipped up from Texas and it getting between 15 and 18 empty depending on speed. Not bad for a truck with a GCVW of 26k. With some deletes, a chip, and summer fuel it should do a lot better.



 



 
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samandothers

I have enjoyed the pulling power I get from my 2004 Dmax. When we first bought it we would get 20 to 22 around town.  Then low sulfur diesel and mileage dropped about 4mpg.  We have had 2 sets of injectors.  First at 90k and second at 180 k, both on GM's dime.  I had thought about getting rid of the truck before we get to 270k as the pattern is injectors every 90k. Dealer indicated new injectors are better and we should not have additional problems.  I am a bit skeptical. 
I like the truck and the Allison transmission and the way they pull our tractor and equipment trailer or camper.  Not sure if I had to replace I'd go back with diesel as we don't pull all the time and diesel fuel is so much more expensive I don't think we get the payback.  It was a different story in 2004 when fuel mileage was better and diesel was less expensive.

mainiac

Finally test drove a 2013 Duramax this morning. Salesman lives 5 miles from me and he brought it home for me to try. It is a VERY smooth and quiet truck and has a lot of get up and go. The Allison has to be the smoothest transmission I have ever driven. That smoothness though, did take away from the wow factor the Ford gave me. First real downfall to the GM truck is the placement of the urea tank. It hangs along side and below the frame under the passenger door. Very noticeably so that it is a concern to me. I am not sure where Ford has placed their urea tank. Down fall no.2 with GM is that they are not producing a 3500hd extended cab short box anymore and 2013 is the last year for the 2500's in that set up as well.

Current thinking is GM truck will go gas 2500hd and 4:10 gears and add air bags or Timbrins for the weight capacity or go Ford diesel F350. Might just come down to numbers.
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.

Woodboogah

The newer diesels seem to be a lot more costly to maintain, not that older ones are not costly.  If you are going to work it, it will most likey last you longer and you get your moneys worth.  I will never go back to a gas truck, however, I will try real hard to stay away from the new diesels.  I have an 05 F350 with the 6.0 and has had some issues but overall I like it.  The older the better though, that's my opinion.
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