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What's next...

Started by HiTech, April 01, 2013, 06:35:04 AM

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HiTech

        Was just sitting here wondering what is next in logging? I can remember hearing the stories from my grandfather of the lumber camps. Floating logs down rivers or across lakes. Being able to shave with an axe and drawing nice shavings with a crosscut. ( still have two of his saws) Water wagons for freezing roads. They had real winters back then. Seems the bigger and better the equipment gets the less and less you get paid for wood. What is next after feller bunchers and tractor trailers? How much wood will you have to cut and haul in a day to pay the bills? Will the $400,000 to $500,000 machines be $4 and $5 million dollar machines? Just tires and chains have doubled in the last three years. $4.30 a gallon for diesel. What's next? I was just wondering?

AlexInman06

I had a landowner try to tell me he has seen a cutting machine that used a high pressure water jet to cut trees??? I don't really know how much truth there is to that, but eventually maybe some crazy stuff like that?
When your broken, work hard to become un-broken... When your un-broken, work hard to put money in the bank... When you have money in the bank, work hard to keep it... and when you pay your taxes, you wonder why you worked so hard... Bottom Line- Do what you love, Love what you do!!!

mark686

how about drones for doing all the work herd they use them in some mines already :D

1270d

Quote from: mark686 on April 01, 2013, 08:07:49 AM
how about drones for doing all the work herd they use them in some mines already :D

There are vids of remotely operated harvesters in Europe.   I'll see if I can dredge one up.

newstick

I've always joked that some day that there would be a harvester that rolls of paper came out just like a hay baler.
Im am owner operator of Newberg Forest Products.We are a convental logging company with a Timbco feller buncher, two John Deere skidders , a strokeboom delimber, and a Serco log loader with circle slasher saw.
In the summer time my other company builds Handcrafted Log Homes. I love the woods!

cutter88

Quote from: AlexInman06 on April 01, 2013, 07:22:03 AM
I had a landowner try to tell me he has seen a cutting machine that used a high pressure water jet to cut trees??? I don't really know how much truth there is to that, but eventually maybe some crazy stuff like that?

well they can cut steele plate and cement with water jet cutting so theres no reason they couldent cut a tree...
Romans 10 vs 9 
650G lgp Deere , 640D deere, 644B deere loader, 247B cat, 4290 spit fire , home made fire wood processor, 2008 dodge diesel  and a bunch of huskys and jonsereds (IN MEMORY OF BARRY ROGERSON)

smwwoody

yea but then they would make us recover the water because it would be contaminated with tannic acid or something. >:(
Full time Mill Manager
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beenthere

Quoteso theres no reason they couldent cut a tree

Different ones have been working on that idea for a good 40 years. Researcher in MI was one, and think the name was something like Bryant.

So far, only thin wood can be cut as the jet nozzle can't keep the jet stream focused on a point for any distance into wood. Things like puzzles are cut out using water jet, as well as some laser beam cutting.
But no magic breakthroughs seem to be on the horizon.

In the 60's there were people saying that saw blades, circular and band, were on their way out and would be replaced soon. 
Hmmm... Didn't happen...... yet. :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

thecfarm

I use to play with robots,water jets at a job I had. They was used to cut out interior trunk parts made out of carpet.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

thenorthman

Water jet and Laser are both overrated... (I make lasers in my day job fyi...) neither one is very accurate.  Both take huge amounts of energy... So don't worry about it to much ;D I'm not...

Personally I see a move towards smaller outfits, running more fuel efficient machines... less processors more hand work...  Diesel is getting ridiculously expensive, forcing the spanking new processors to process more wood to pay for their fuel... eventually someone is going to figure out that burning ten to fifteen gallons in a small skidder a day is better then ten to fifteen and hour...
well that didn't work

Decked

I used to tease my cutter guy..invent a neat-o laser beam to cut 'em...maybe you wouldn't get THAT pinched! :D

Paper Maker

Quote from: newstick on April 01, 2013, 01:00:35 PM
I've always joked that some day that there would be a harvester that rolls of paper came out just like a hay baler.
I hope not because then I would be out of a job. smiley_grin

SwampDonkey

A lot of those harvesters have down sized since the 80's. They used to take those Koerings into a stand of hardwood around here and load the whole tree onto the bunk, along with the tops, debark it on the landing, shove it through a chipper into a van. Off to the mill with pulp chips.

I think everything runs full circle. After awhile those comfortable machines get too expensive to be practical. Logging has got to be about the only job where efficiency is rewarded by a cut in pay rate. Someday, folks are going to say to heck with that noise and the pulp mills will close or again assume the role as owners of harvesting equipment with a man in the seat paid by the hour. The only way to eliminate the man in the seat is to make intelligent machines. In a factory setting a robot gets the job done, it's movements follow the exact same path for every assembly. Out in the woods it is not that simple, a robot has no awareness of changes in operating conditions....weather, terrain, a beaver pond, a cliff ahead.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

snowstorm

Quote from: thecfarm on April 01, 2013, 10:51:08 PM
I use to play with robots,water jets at a job I had. They was used to cut out interior trunk parts made out of carpet.
was that at form fiber in aurbun?

thecfarm

snowstorm,yes it was. By the entrance to the turnpike.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

cutter88

Quote from: thenorthman on April 01, 2013, 11:10:42 PM
Water jet and Laser are both overrated... (I make lasers in my day job fyi...) neither one is very accurate.  Both take huge amounts of energy... So don't worry about it to much ;D I'm not...

Personally I see a move towards smaller outfits, running more fuel efficient machines... less processors more hand work...  Diesel is getting ridiculously expensive, forcing the spanking new processors to process more wood to pay for their fuel... eventually someone is going to figure out that burning ten to fifteen gallons in a small skidder a day is better then ten to fifteen and hour...

Mr, I like your way of thinken :)
Romans 10 vs 9 
650G lgp Deere , 640D deere, 644B deere loader, 247B cat, 4290 spit fire , home made fire wood processor, 2008 dodge diesel  and a bunch of huskys and jonsereds (IN MEMORY OF BARRY ROGERSON)

Offthebeatenpath

Cfarm- I've known a few folks who worked at Gates (if that's still the name).

I agree with Cutter88.  I like the your philosophy northman and hope you're right. The smaller the better in my opinion...
1985 JD 440D, ASV tracked skid steer w/ winch, Fecon grapple, & various attachments, Hitachi CG-30 tracked dump truck, CanyCom S25 crawler carrier, Volvo EC35C mini-ex, Kubota 018-4 mini-ex, Cormidi 100 self loading tracked dumper, various other little trail building machines and tools...

thecfarm

Gates was a while ago,now it's Formed Fiber,or was 2 years ago.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Autocar

In my opinion whats next will be finding a sawmill to sell your wood to every month in forestery magazines theres four to six mills closing there doors.
Bill

log cutter

eventually someone is going to figure out that burning ten to fifteen gallons in a small skidder a day is better then ten to fifteen and hour...
Please explain to me how a little skidder is more efficient on fuel than say a 748g3.  You have to figure fuel in cost per tons moved or Bd. ft or per
Timbco 475E

Tmac47

Is this question directed strictly towards the progression of timber hardware in the industry (skidders n' such) or does it also beg the question, "What's next in software?".

There are a lot of apps and next-gen type software popping up all over the place.  I think Plum Creek is currently using a pretty expensive tracking/logistics system and Weyerhauser is trying to hunt down something similar.

thenorthman

Quote from: log cutter on April 03, 2013, 02:10:19 PM
eventually someone is going to figure out that burning ten to fifteen gallons in a small skidder a day is better then ten to fifteen and hour...
Please explain to me how a little skidder is more efficient on fuel than say a 748g3.  You have to figure fuel in cost per tons moved or Bd. ft or per

Its not just the skidder drinking fuel.  748 is a huge machine compared to a say a 440, or a garrett, so yeah it can move more wood, if the wood is there to be moved.

The problem arises when you have a processor, a loader, a feller buncher, all drinking around 4 gallons an hour.  granted they are moving a pile of wood, but at what cost?  Off road Diesel round here is somewhere around $3.70, what happens when it (not if) it shoots up to $8. or $10 a gallon?

If you where to down size and maybe hire a hand full of cutters, and run one or two skidders, fuel consumption would likely drop by more then half, production would take a slight hit,  but likely less then losing any one of the above machines.  Not to mention all the associated maintenance costs, paying for the machines, paying the operators, moving the machines from job to job. Before you know it to stay competitive you have $1,500,000. just to start cutting.  And then "jones logging" down the street well they have two feller bunchers and... its a vicious cycle.

Meanwhile, on 20 some odd acres, my first load of logs I break even on moving the machine in and out (in reality probably still turn a bit of a profit) the second load minus 20 gallons of diesel, goes in the bank, the third in my pocket, rinse and repeat.

Granted insurance is in there somewhere, and wages if I have to pay them.   Gods forbid I have a break down now... but after the third load should be ok...
well that didn't work

log cutter

If you have a machine that uses 4 gal of fuel per hour it is still cheaper 1 hour of L&I in the state of Wash. the base rate for a man on the ground is $18 per hour. So one one hand your fuel bill does go down but on the other hand your labor cost goes up. So I guess it is what are you more comfortable with. Around here the guy s who didn't adapt to mechanized went out of business. Labor cost and not being able to compete on price with those who modernized. And if there are plenty of jobs the big guys will not mess with the little 20 acre jobs but if there isn't a lot of jobs they will do those small ones. And everyone one of them have a lowboy and move their own equipment and you will be sitting home or going broke trying to compete. I agree it is a vicious cycle but it is what it is. Here is what I see a lot on this site, a lot of guys here look at a number and say that they couldn't afford it . and with their current production and equipment line up they are right. But when you break down their numbers, they will find their cost per unit is higher than the guys running bigger more efficient. How ever they are operating in their comfort zone. And no matter what size one chooses to be ,if they are covering all their cost and making a go of it.My hat is off to them .   
Timbco 475E

SwampDonkey

It's a false hood to just look at fuel. You have a huge investment in equipment to have the safety and comfort the industry has come to demand. Many of the mills who you cut for are the finance companies getting all that interest on the loan they made for you to buy all those machines. A new skidder is run for 30 years, how long is a feller buncher run? I don't know of many getting rich because their production went up on wood harvesting. When production goes up price/cubic meter drops accordingly and cost of capital needed to move it goes way up. Unlike in a pulp mill where the wage goes up.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

thenorthman

It probably has more to to with scale than anything else.

The big boys can keep going with big equipment, I'm not trying to compete with them (that's kinda the whole idea).

Its a hypothetical theory, that I'm basing my logging business off of.  More and more outfits around here are buying up big machines.  But the down side is they have to get bigger and bigger units to pay for them, yet not many of them are making money?  Its kinda like the big farms in the midwest, to make money as a "farmer" conventional wisdom says you need to farm more dirt, to farm more dirt you need to have a bigger tractor, big tractor means big payments, well now you need to farm more dirt to pay for the big tractor and still put food on the table, so now you need a bigger tractor to farm even more dirt... same goes for logging.
well that didn't work

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