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borehole drilling

Started by farlet, March 23, 2013, 03:23:43 AM

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farlet

Good morning,

We are emigrating to Sweden in 1 month, and when we get there, we need a water supply. We have been quoted a fortune to drill a well, and we were wondering if we could do it ourselves.

I have access to a small cable drilling rig for very little money. I am a welder fabricator by trade, so I would be happy to make the drilling tools should they be required. Our house is only 500 yds from a large lake, so I am thinking that we wont have to go very deep. I would imagine that there is rock down there, but I am unsure about depths, etc...

I am not worried if it takes me a few weeks to do the job as it will save us a fortune and I am sure that we will quite enjoy doing it.

Does anyone have experience with this, and do you think we have a chance of making it work ?

Thanks in advance

giant splinter

It sure sounds like you did your homework and it seems you are willing to give it a shot so if it makes you happy and you can save some money at the same time then go fore it. As far as your chance of this working, I thing they are excellent and you can do this yourself with good planning.
Have you had any geotechnical investigation work done on your property and is there any information on the rock formations you might be dealing with?. I think a close look at what the underlaying conditions are might be in order before you before making your final plans, cable rigs have some limitations when it comes to dense rock and may prove to be inadequate for what you are trying to accomplish. I suspect if you can find a local geotechnical firm or an engineering geologist in the area you will be building your project they could give you some good ideas as to how to approach this domestic water well project and possibly also your sanitary septic system if required.
A limited soils investigation may be required as part of the initial planing stages to get your project started, the results of the subsurface investigation are reviewed by a geologist and soils testing will result in a report that you will have as a guide for your planned construction, including all conclusions and recommendations as well as the feasability of your planned improvements on your property.

roll with it

pineywoods

We successfully drilled a good water well using a tractor and a pto drive post hole auger. Don't know what other resources you may have, but the following link might prove useful.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,36335.msg525362.html#msg525362
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Al_Smith

Well they've been thumping in wells since mankind figured out there was water below the surface .You could probabley "Google " it and find out a zillion methods .

Wouldn't be a big deal to go maybe 50 feet .400 might be a big deal especially  in hard rock .No matter if you thump it youreslf or have it done make certain the water is potable .

beenthere

QuoteWe have been quoted a fortune to drill a well, and we were wondering if we could do it ourselves.


Now you may find out why they are quoting a "fortune" to drill wells. ;)

After you try it yourself, and if you don't get water.... then what is the plan?
Pay the "fortune" or sell the property, or go without water?

Just curious what the back-up plan might be. 

What do you use for water while drilling down or pounding down for water?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

farlet

Thanks for the replies everyone. Its good to have positive and negative viewpoints so we can make our mind up.

The way I am looking at it is that the drilling rig is coming for a price where I cant really lose if I decide to sell it, so if it doesnt work, I will sell it and pay the price to get someone else to drill it. All I will have lost is a few weeks of my time which is a risk I am happy to take (It will be interesting anyway and I am sure I will learn something !). I am not worried about denting my pride and looking like a bit of a fool if it doesnt go to plan

I am trying to find out more about the underlying geology before making a decision, but I am very tempted to give it a go.

Assuming that I get a hole in the ground with a water supply at the bottom, do you have to drive the casing in, or just push it down and backfill with gravel ? I was planning on drilling a 6" hole for a 4" casing, and I was hoping to use plastic for the casing.

Our house is very close to the lake and only about 5 yards higher up than it, so I am hoping that the chances of getting water are good. All of the water in the lakes and rivers where we are going is good enough to drink, but I will get it tested if we are successful.

Thanks again for your input, its greatly appreciated

beenthere

A lot of your answers should come from the requirements of the locality you will be making your home.
Here, the casing is to seal off surface water and other water near the surface.
We are required to have a minimum of 50' of casing, last I knew. The casing fits tight in the hole.
A neighbor with a 160' 6" well and casing had to go deeper (300') to get past some sand problems with a 4" casing. So depends on what is down there.

If lake water is drinkable, why not pump it out of the lake?

How about a picture of you Sweden property?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ljohnsaw

When the drillers did my well on a previous property here is the steps/requirements:

They drilled out with a really big auger (24"?) down a bit, probably 20' and put a little bit of a liner to keep the surface soil out.  It was some large metal thin, smooth wall pipe.

Then they switched to a normal rock drill that was in the 8 to 10" range.  They went down until hitting solid rock.  Then went another foot or two.

They pulled out and put in a large piece of heavy PVC.  They pushed it in with the drill rig to seat it firmly in the bedrock.  That was supposed to seal out the surface water (and contamination).  This liner ran up a couple of feet above the ground surface.  They pulled out the large temporary liner.

From there, they drilled a total of 330' to find a measly 5.5 GPM to pass code.

After they were gone, I poured a slab around the hole to build a pump house.  I lined the well with 6" PVC, the last 40' perforated.  I then lowered the pump attached to black hose and the electrical wire.  The pump was suspended about 10 to 20' from the bottom to allow for any sand/silt to settle out.

I dumped some bleach down the well (I forget the calculation) and ran water out of all the plumbing until I could smell it.  That sat for 24 hours and then run until no odor.

Since the well drilling uses high pressure air to blow the rock and such out of the hole, it sort of made my water "sparkling water" for a couple of days.  Kind of interesting.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Al_Smith

It's hard to say how they drill wells in Sweden or what if any regulations must be followed .I suppose the best thing to do is when in Sweden do as the Swedes do .

Where's Magnus ,he'd know .

Holmes

If you drill a 6" hole and put 4" casing in it  the walls will perpetually fall into the well. The casing should be the size of the hole. Pvc casing will shatter if pounded in. It won't shatter if slid in. 6" Steel casing  is/ was  usually used down to bedrock then no casing just the hole in the rock, but the casing needs to be sealed to the bedrock. Each foot of water in a 6" pipe is about 2 gallons.  Good luck   Maybe now there is a pvc casing for wells?
Think like a farmer.

John Mc

I'm just guessing that much of Sweden is like New England... very rocky.  I suppose it depends on your specific location, but in my visit to the country (a LONG time ago), that's what I remember.

Someone mentioned using the lake.  That may well be worth looking in to. When I lived in NW Ohio, my area was very easy to drill, but the problem was that much of the water had sulfur in it.  Our well got so bad it was undrinkable.  We the was an old desulfation system, but it was not working, and parts had been stripped off it.  When I had someone in to look at it he said "Why not draw from your pond? We can put in a purification system that will be cheaper and more reliable than replacing the desulfation system." 

We went with the pond water system, and it worked very well for the years I lived there.  As I recall, there was a sand filter, then iodine treatment, then a charcoal filter to remove the iodine.  The water from this was safe to drink, but we added a reverse osmosis system to the drinking water tap in the kitchen, just to be on the safe side.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: Holmes on March 24, 2013, 08:50:42 AM
If you drill a 6" hole and put 4" casing in it  the walls will perpetually fall into the well. The casing should be the size of the hole. Pvc casing will shatter if pounded in. It won't shatter if slid in. 6" Steel casing  is/ was  usually used down to bedrock then no casing just the hole in the rock, but the casing needs to be sealed to the bedrock. Each foot of water in a 6" pipe is about 2 gallons.  Good luck   Maybe now there is a pvc casing for wells?

In my case, the drilling company was going to put the 4" casing in and I opted to do it myself as it was a lot cheaper.  The well hole was in bedrock and the casing was to provide a way t keep the pump from getting trapped should there be some rocks tumbling down the hole from the walls.  It also provided a way to keep the minute sand/silt that occasionally would trickle down from being picked up by the pump.  I still would get some grit that I would have to clear out of my faucets once or twice a year.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Al_Smith

Quote from: John Mc on March 24, 2013, 10:59:49 AM
Someone mentioned using the lake.  That may well be worth looking in to. When I lived in NW Ohio, my area was very easy to drill, but the problem was that much of the water had sulfur in it.  Our well got so bad it was undrinkable.     

.
Since you mentioned it  parts of Paulding County has water that smells so bad I doubt a hog would drink it . As a result a lot of people have indeed went to a pond water type thing with purification systems .

Parts of what used to be called the great black swamp have the lousiest water on the planet and ironically some of the most productive farm land in the USA .

r.man

In Ontario the standard drilled house well is  6" steel. The steel has to be set a certain distance into the rock to seal it. A larger hole is drilled in the soil and the difference is called the annular space. This space has to be filled with a filler that has a certain percentage of bentonite. This filler seals the space and keeps ground water from infiltrating the well by traveling down the casing. I am not fond of drilled wells as I hear of too many with bad water or grit problems. Plus they are an expensive way to retrieve water. I would prefer open water with a purification system or my personal favorite the sand point. I do know of a family that bought a personal drilling system to drill two family wells. They used the system successfully and then sold it to recoup more some of the cost. They were very happy financially with the overall results.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

John Mc

Quote from: Al_Smith on March 27, 2013, 09:18:33 PM
Since you mentioned it  parts of Paulding County has water that smells so bad I doubt a hog would drink it . As a result a lot of people have indeed went to a pond water type thing with purification systems .

Parts of what used to be called the great black swamp have the lousiest water on the planet and ironically some of the most productive farm land in the USA .

I was in Wood County, OH.  My parents house was on a sandbar that was at one time the shore of the great lakes (back in pre-history, when the great lakes were all one big lake).  Their water was great-tasting, though very hard from all the limestone in the area.

When I got out on my own, I had a place a few miles to the northwest of my parents... easy drilling, and you didn't have to go very deep (in fact Wood County eventually adopted a regulation requiring wells to be at least 50 ft deep for health reasons).  Unfortunately, the sulfur started at about 40 feet in many places, and mine was one of them.  Turns out, my parents place was on the edge of what was once the Black Swamp. I was well into it (though the huge system drainage ditches kept the area mostly dry, and as Al mentioned, it was great farmland).

One neighbor went to the unheard of depth (at least in that area) of 165 feet for his well.  He got out of the sulfur doing that.  My well here in Vermont is 490 ft, my neighbors is 535. The guy who drilled my well said the deepest one he had ever drilled was almost 1500 ft.  You don't see many sand point wells around here.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Al_Smith

The substrata makes all the difference in the world what you might hit .

Wood County is definately within the great swamp area . I'd imagine it just like most if not all of northern Ohio most likely sets atop limestone .More times than not you stand a better chance of hitting sulfer if you are in the rock but sometimes it can be above it too .

If a person were lucky enough to hit a gravel vein left over from the second ice age chances are you won't have sulfer but you could get bacterial iron which in itself can be a chore to deal with .The saving grace is it doesn't smell like egg water .Rather perhaps like the residue of oderious emissions left over from a steady diet of picked eggs ,beer and sauerkraut .Phew!

John Mc

Quote from: Al_Smith on March 28, 2013, 04:20:09 PM
...Rather perhaps like the residue of oderious emissions left over from a steady diet of picked eggs ,beer and sauerkraut .Phew!

Well, an awful lot of Germans did settle in the area, so there likely was a good bit of beer and sauerkraut around. (Some of my favorite events were the German festivals in the area).
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Al_Smith

Ah yes ,my ex wife and myself must have hit every German festival from Minster in Auglaize county to the big one in Hamler .If you keep moving ,dancing the polka and eating that good food you'll never get intoxicated drinking  gallons of beer .You will perspire profusely though in late August early September .

That was 30-35  years ago ,I don't think the old bod could take it any more .

The bad water is probabley why those old Dutchmen drank so much beer I'd imagine . ;)

D L Bahler

Those silly Germans poisoned their water supplies with their filthy habits, and so had to drink beer all the time.
We sensible Swiss kept our water clean, so we don't have to drink beer too much.

It's easy to get water when pure wells of it spring up out of the mountainside, and the rivers and lakes are all potable...

Now in Indiana where I live, it's a bit different. We live on Swamp ground, the wells are shallow but the water is full of iron. bad for clothes and the skin. If you get off the swamp, the waters full of a calcium and magnesium, and some times. Tastes foul. Our swamp water is great if you get the iron out of it.

Al_Smith

Yeah you've all got rusty teeth ,those that have any to rust . ;D

maple flats

You also want to check to find out if you are even allowed to drill your own well. There are a few places in the US where that is not allowed.
I have a light duty well drill called a Deep Rock well drill. It worked fine the first 13', until I hit granite. Then the drilling went real slow. My rig is just a 4 HP gas engine with a tower to hold it. You are supposed to drill, while pumping water down the drill stem. The engine and cradle weight are supposed to be enough, according to the manufacturer. It is not in granite. I had to add a weight bar to add 100# and the drilling was very slow. I had to buy a special rock core bit (2 actually) to even cut it. I was at about 2-3" per hour at times. The water flowing down the stem (mixed with a thickener agent) flushed to the surface carrying the material drilled to the surface. It took me many long hours to get to just 53' where I hit water. I then had to work on something else and filled the hole with sand to keep it from caving in. I don't know how much flow I have yet. My main point is, find out what you can expect to be drilling thru and if you will drill your own, get an appropriate size/capacity drill. Mine is vastly under sized and under weight.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

justallan1

Have you considered installing a sand point? If you are only 5 yards above lake level and it's drinkable, at the very least I'd put one in just to save any well that you put in.

Allan

Thehardway

How much rainfall is there in that region?  A good engineered rainwater collection system might be cheaper and provide all the fresh water you need.  Wells can be fickle.  Will you be off the power grid?

I am 3rd gen. Swede and would love to visit the homeland.  You'll have to post some pics when you get over there if you have internet.

As for the crazy German's check this out:

http://www.wimp.com/bavarianflashmob/

Jeff turned me on to wimp and I thought this was pretty good even though I have no idea what they are singing about..... ;D
Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

Ruffneck

You need to get water one way or the other. My vote is to go for it. What size cable drilling rig are you talking about?

I purchased an old rig a few years back for the cost of scrap. I have gone completely through it and am starting my  first well. I could make money by selling the rig, maybe with enough profit to have the well drilled for me. Where's the adventure in that though :D
http://youtu.be/LBIXzxDujCc

Look at the well logs for the area, it will give you a good idea on what to expect. I'm in an area of 350' deep wells with formations of soft, medium and hard basalt. I have also seen reports on 750' dry holes, and at $21 per foot, that's one expensive posthole. My peeps tell me the penetration rate can be as slow as a foot an hour with my rig.
A water dowser says 80 to 90 feet is where to veins are crossing. I would love for him to be right, but I'm taking it with a grain of salt. My Dad had a dowser say 350 feet and he ended up going 600 feet and having to put in a huge cistern. Paid more for the water than the forty acres.

Water is life ;)

Good Luck!




Wellmud

farlet, just wondering what you ended up doing for a water source, just curious since this is what I do for a living.
Woodmizer LT35 manual, Kubota L3130, Farmi 351, Stihl 029 super, 3 Logrite canthooks

Mountain Guardian

One can also go with a cistern system, that is what I did at our last farm.  You can even get fancy and plumb your roof gutter into the tank like they do in Australia.

I never got that fancy, I just hauled in water, which can get to be a pain especially in the winter here in Idaho and in the summer trying to keep up with the livestock needs.  But it is quite doable, we did it for ten years and it worked quite well, and much cheaper than paying for a well.

Thankfully the new farm has a well and five ponds, no more hauling water......

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