Should I buy a sawmill??

[alecs]

Hello Forum!

A few years ago, I moved to a piece of property that has its origins as a water-powered sawmill and gristmill, originally constructed in the 1670s.  It survived as a mill until the 1870s, at which point the owners moved the mill close to the railroad and bought a steam powered setup.  Since then, it has been a residential property.  There are countless projects to do that could make use of the output of a bandsaw mill.  For example, fencing, flooring, siding, trim, shingles, clapboards, doors, raised garden beds, chicken coop, etc.  I also have access to what I believe to be an adequate supply of trees to mill.  Most of these are white pine, with oak, maple, ash, and shagbark hickory mixed in.  The biggest trees are up to about 30" in diameter at the base.  Some are on my property, some on my neighbors' land, and a neighbor who is a local builder is willing to "give" me pine that they cut down for their projects. 

I'm committed to the idea of using locally sawn wood on my projects in part because of the sawmill history of the property and the age of the buildings.  I don't think it's right to add in Home Depot 2x4s and plywood when the attic framing that exists is sawmill slabs, round on one side with the bark still on!  I also have floors with boards 17 or 18" wide, tapered and arranged in a back and forth fashion.  I am not planning to quit my day job and saw full time, so a production mill is not what I need.

I've narrowed my options down to the following, roughly in order of left-brained practicality:

1) Continue current practice of buying pine and oak from the local sawmill (there are a couple within 40 miles and I have a good size trailer) and abandon the desire to saw my own lumber from my own trees
2) Use my existing Granberg Alaskan Mill (maybe with a bigger chainsaw and longer bar - currently I have a 24" bar on it)
3) Hire someone with a portable mill to come saw my trees as needed
4) Buy an entry level hobby mill but potentially be frustrated by limited capacity or "toughness" (how badly do I want to be able to cut a 30" tree into 20' beams?)
5) Build my own mill to hopefully get more features at a price comparable to an entry level mill
6) Buy a nicer manual mill but potentially spend more than I ought to be on this   
7) Restore the water-power and open my own version of Sturbridge Village with an up-and-down sawmill, a grist mill, blacksmith forge, etc.  (Powerball plan!)

Any advice (encouraging or discouraging) would be appreciated!  Any stories on what led you folks into buying a mill would also be good to hear, as well as how you decided which brand fits your needs.  And feel free to re-rank my practicality list!

Thanks,
Alec

[tgalbraith]

You have some good ideas. I am sure that you will enjoy any mill you would get.
The idea of restoring the water powered mill is fascinating, but do some research
Unless the dam is still in tact, many areas have a lot of hurdles to clear before you
can alter the flow of a stream. Good luck with whatever idea you go with . https://forestryforum.com/board/Smileys/default/cool.gif

[alecs]

Thanks for the encouragement.  The dam is still there, and my deed to the property includes the rights of adjusting the water flowage and the riparian rights.  Not sure how much I can exercise those rights in the face of the local conservation commission!  But, like I said, that option requires winning the Powerball or something similar.   

[ely]

norwood, along with others have affordable mills that are manual, and they will do the job. you would be pleased with any one of them most likely.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Not to tell you what to do but just to get out one idea for getting your feet wet.

Take down and ready about 2000 board feet log scale of  logs that will give you the first batch of lumber you need for a project or two.
Then hire somebody like Peter here, for a day or so, to come saw them up.  http://ctlogs2lumber.com
Dry the wood then use it up on your your project or two. 

You will now know about logging, bandsawing, drying wood, and how fast you can use up your own wood.   For the bandsawing it will have cost you about the same as the sales tax on a new or very decent used manual mill, or a couple of boxes of blades,  or a sawmill breakdown or two.  A good investment of time and money all around and I bet your questions will come out different afterwards.

[Ianab]

3) Hire someone with a portable mill to come saw my trees as needed

Money well spent, even if you only do it once, then decide to take things further, buying or building your own mill. Like TT says, you get an idea of the whole operation (from tree to building), of which the sawmill is only one step, without outlaying a big chunk of $$.

4) Buy an entry level hobby mill but potentially be frustrated by limited capacity or "toughness" (how badly do I want to be able to cut a 30" tree into 20' beams?)

Don't discount what you can do with a smaller band mill. Place it on a concrete slab and there is no risk of bending the bed, and you can extend it to cut 20ft beams. In a saw shed (which you now have the timber to build) you can rig an overhead winch to help with log handling. It will be slower than a fully hydraulic mill, and more work, but with a bit of skill and cunning you can achieve a lot. Also, those mill tend to hold their value pretty well. If you decide in a couple of years that you have "outgrown" it, you can probably get most of your money back selling to the next guy. On the same line, these mills come up for sale used quite often, from people that have either outgrown them, or given up on sawing for some reason. You might get a good deal on a used mill to get you started.

Regarding the "toughness". There are 2 things to consider, the bed that's holding the log. This has to pretty strong on a portable mill, as it's supporting the heavy log on a few jacks. On a stationary band mill, lighter rails can be bolted to a concrete slab for support. The saw head only supports the engine and blade. It's either strong enough to do that, or the mill is junk. But it's a known load, and has nothing to do with the log's weight.

5) Build my own mill to hopefully get more features at a price comparable to an entry level mill

Don't know your level of mechanical skills, but an automated sawmill is a pretty complex piece of engineering. A manual mill is relatively simple, and lots of folks have built those, but they are really more comparable to the entry level band mills. I get the feeling you want to get sawing and building stuff, not spend the next year building a sawmill.

6) Buy a nicer manual mill but potentially spend more than I ought to be on this

If I was going bigger, I'd go all the way to a hydraulic mill, or more likely a cheaper swingblade / slabber. But that is getting into some more serious $$.

7) Restore the water-power and open my own version of Sturbridge Village with an up-and-down sawmill, a grist mill, blacksmith forge, etc.  (Powerball plan!)

Don't give up your dreams  ;D
But to do that (on any sensible budget) you are going to want a sawmill of some sort in the first place, to get the beams and other timber needed. Which takes us back to No 4....

Personally I'd be going out and buying the mill you can afford now, and getting some sawing done. The learning experience is worth it, and you have "upgrade" or "exit" strategies if you change your mind.

I'd discounted #1 on principle, and #2 sounds like a lot of hard work, and has you 1/2 way to a light band mill anyway.

Ian

[Kingcha]

Not sure I can answer all of you questions, but the rest of the guys here give some good advice.

My first thought is how many projects and how much wood do you need.  It might be easier and cheaper to hire a local sawyer.   How much free time do you have???   

I also have a lot of projects that I intend to use my milled wood for, including flooring, siding & trim in a new house.  It would be cheaper for me to just buy the lumber, but I have the time and I am looking for a hobby/part-time business.  I think looking at your time available is a big key. 

I myself have the time so it was a very simple decision for me.  I just ordered my mill today  8)  a WM lt15

[thecfarm]

I like having my mill. I have a Thomas and the frame on it is very rugged. I have not had to reline it all. I have turned a few good size white pines on it to with a good thump. If you can buy a mill, meaning have the extra money,do it,you will not regret it at all. But you will need something to get the logs to the mill no matter what you decide to do.

I will also add that if I had all the lumber sawed by someone else,I could of saved alot of money. But I still have a few more buildings to saw out. I would like to at least break even.   ;D

[Mike N]

I love my Woodmizer LT-15. 
My brother & I have bandsawed over 35,000 bd. ft. We take turns cutting & stacking every other log.
Just a little tennis elbow as a side effect to all of the fun!

[drobertson]

Howdy Alec, they always say (whoever they are ;D) that hind site is 20/20,  It seems that regardless of having someone mill for you or you milling for yourself, there is still the issue of retrieving the logs.  If this is a doable task for you, I would have to suggest getting your own mill. For the simple reason, once you see the logs being turned to lumber and beams the thought you'll have is "I could do this", this is the hind site I am talking about. If you do have someone cut what you need, there will always be a schedule to work out and hold. Not that it can't work, just saying board footage will add up as will the cost. this cost could easily go to paying back the cost of the mill. Just my opinion.  Sawing is not that difficult learn, and there is plenty of resources available in the event of any head scratching ;D   I hope all works out for your plans, spring is just around the corner, and a perfect time get started,    david

[Magicman]

Hello and Welcome to the Forestry Forum, alecs.   

[jwoods]

Hello Alec,

That's always a fun question.  There are a lot of good answers here.  From my experience sawmilling is only a fraction (time and money) of what's required to build/do all the projects you list.  I purchased a manual mill 12 years ago and have done most of what you are planning.

I would recommend similar to others, take on a project such as a chicken coop, work backwards through a material/log/cut-list and hire someone to do the sawing.  I bet you find your answer after the experience.

Joe

[m wood]

Ian gave the precision answer, that was kinda how I was seeing your list as well...but Im curious, what is a Sturbridge Village?  do they give "per cost" tours of how a mill operated 300 years ago, that sounds pretty cool, but it sounds like its in another league from the rest of you listed options.

welcome all the same alec
mark

[terrifictimbersllc]

"Old Sturbridge Village is one of the country's oldest and largest living history museums, depicting early New England life from 1790-1840 with historians in costume, antique buildings, water-powered mills, and a working farm. Visitors can view antiques, meet heritage breed animals, and enjoy hands-on crafts."

http://www.osv.org

[pineywoods]

re: old sturbridge village.  It's been a while ago, but I spent a day taking it all in. The highlight was a working water powered sash mill, cutting up a big white pine log..Well worth the time...

[m wood]

Thanks for the link TT.  defntly my kind of place too.  Bet it'd be harde to do in a day.  I've been places like it out west.

alecs, would you consider doing something like that for nostalgia sake, or a commercial interest?  Sounds like you got a historical piece of land to start with! 

You'll get saw dust in those olde English buckle down boots one way or the other, then you'll be hooked ;D

[Holmes]

Alecs I have to admit your property sounds a lot like mine in Royalston , old sawmill site, on a stream/ pond, with turnings for chairs and brooms. I had the same thoughts when i started rehabbing the farm 12 years ago. I did not buy a mill until I was almost done with the remodel mostly because I did 65% of the work myself.  I did buy some lumber / beams from a local mill.
    If you have the time to use the mill and get all your work done then I would say buy a mill. If you don't then hire the milling out as terrifictimbers said. It would be great to have 2000' of wood cut and ready to use as needed.   I think rough sawn lumber is not legal for framing in Ma. unless it is stamped, you might want to check on that.
   Good luck with your projects...    Holmes

[bandmiller2]

Has anyone here ever used a water powered mill.?Seems to me you would need a pretty big stream or good sized  pond to run a circular mill.I remember reading of a sawyer that owned a mill, he had a foot operated lever to control the water when he would be in a cut he would open it up more,sorta like a governor.Probibly an up and down sash saw would be best unless you have some read head and volume. Frank C.

[drobertson]

the only water saw I've seen was on an episode of Bonanza, a real neat looking mill,

[alecs]

Thanks, All, for the advice.  I'm looking into the portable milling options and hiring a sawyer for at least the first go-round.  Now my next battle is to see how tough it will be to get the conservation commission to allow me to remove some trees from the dam tail race.  (mostly ash and maple). 

Regarding the water power, if time and money were no object, I'd try to resurrect the sash mill for the coolness factor, but I don't envision cutting all my lumber with it!

[bandmiller2]

Alecs,be aware once you contact those conservation varments they will be watching you like a hawk.Sometimes its better to work in baby steps,little bits out of sight.You get one "get out of jail free card" then you just have to stop,hopefully after some improvements. Frank C.

[Magicman]

my deed to the property includes the rights of adjusting the water flowage and the riparian rights. 

I know what I would do.  I would proceed slowly and do what I needed to do one tree at the time.  But then I always figure that it is easier to get forgiveness than permission.  No one has guts enough to give permission.

[thecfarm]

I'm not telling you to do anything,BUT keep it low profile,don't tell anyone what you are doing. Some will tell others and others will tell more and than before you know it the wrong person will be told and they will feel that you have no right to do that and get the big boys involved.

[terrifictimbersllc]

This thread is still going.  8)  If it helps the answer is yes you should buy a sawmill!   8)

[dgdrls]

Harness the waterpower for electricity to drive the House or shop.
Use the $ offset to fund the biggest circle mill you can install :D

Even without the mill use the water power for electricity.

DGDrls

[drobertson]

 Are personal sawmills prohibited?  Can one do with his or her property as they wish?  Where is this going?  Why so complicated?

[thecfarm]

When it comes to water,everything changes. It's ok to fish in,but start to pull old logs out of the bottom,drive a skidder through it with about a ½ cord of wood behind it,dam or remove a dam in moving water,even drive beside water and put some mud into the water,or better yet change the flow of a stream,brook. Than see how long you will stay out of jail.  ;D

[WDH]

This thread is still going.  8)  If it helps the answer is yes you should buy a sawmill!   8)

This is like taking a poll in an Insane Asylum to ask if you are crazy  :D.

[alecs]

TheCFarm, you have it about right.  I asked the conservation offer when she was next going on vacation so I could schedule my work accordingly!   :D

But your list of infractions sounds pretty specific - do you speak from direct experience?

[thecfarm]

No I just hear alot of stories. Forgot one,cut all the trees along a water shed and cut all the trees so they fall into the water.

[Holmes]

From what I have heard here in Ma. you will get into more trouble if you put/use construction {yellow}equipment in a wet area.  If you happen to be using agricultural {green,red}equipment in a wet area, well that's part of farming.

[bandmiller2]

If you could just convince a beaver to put a water wheel in you'd be home free,those varmints do as they please,and flip their tail at conservation  commissions. Frank C.

[rl]

just one comment on mill to buy  do you want to spend time handling logs on the mill or the lumber coming off...I bought lt 40 because I wanted to be handling lumber     rl

[Jim_Rogers]

I wanted to thank all of you here on the forum that suggested that AlecS get a local portable sawmill guy to come to his property and saw up his logs for him.

That's what he did, and I wanted to thank him as well, as I was the guy who sawed up his logs.

I moved my mill there this past Sunday afternoon after it finally got free from the frozen ground here in Georgetown.

Here is a shot of his pile:



 

And:



 

After sawing the smallest one on the top of the pile, we cut the three branched fork end off the largest butt log in the pile.
We rolled that one onto the mill and cut some very nice 2"x20"x 12' planks for a conference table top he wants to make:



 

In the above picture there are some 1by 20" wide pieces on top of the two table tops.

The crotch was cut in half by a chain saw and we sawed that up last:



 



 

This crotch piece didn't have very much figure in it but some of the others were very nice. Some 28" wide.

AlecS' neighbor gave him four pine logs that we had to move from the edge of the street to the mill yard:



  



 



 

I suggested that Kevin not drive around with a log that high up again. He agreed.

We did have a bit a rain there as well:



 

I was a great job with two very nice guys helping. AlecS and Kevin his right hand man.

Thanks to all again.

Jim Rogers

[Alcranb]

Sounds like it was a great day 
What do you think Jim, another victim?  ;D

[alecs]

Well, it looks like Jim Rogers beat me to the punch on telling the outcome of the first phase of this story.  It was a real pleasure to work with you on the sawing, Jim.  Already thinking I will need more logs and then more sawing.  Rinse, lather, repeat, right?

[ladylake]

 
Looks like I'm too late for the hire a mill vote but that was my vote.  I saw for a couple different people that have circle mills but don't have time to run them and both like the thin kerf.   Steve

[drobertson]

Portable mills and a very handy tractor can do a pile of work, with a minimal footprint. glad it is working out.

[RayBell]

You know I am too old, live in the middle of town, and live in the desert side of Wa Stae, but I am obsessed with this site. Love the saw milling questions, very helpful answers, and pictures. I absolutely know nothing about this, but in my feeble mind thought Alec's made the right decision. Other than restoring the water powered mill ( sounds impractible) having somebody cut the first stack, and watching seemed the most logical to me. Sorry if I am out of line here offering opinions as a no nothing. Sure wish I were 30 yrs younger, and didn't live in the desert :D

[Magicman]

Sure wish I were 30 yrs younger.... :D 

Hello RayBell, and Welcome to the Forestry Forum.  Wishing that you were 30 years younger will get you nowhere.  Do what you can and keep on doing it for as long as you can.  Then do it some more.   

[RayBell]

Thank you for the welcome and philosophy Magicman. I do stay busy mostly honeydo's and WOODTURNING. I suppose that is one reason I like this site so much, our shared interest in wood, and especially the beautiful figure found inside.

[Chuck White]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, RayBell

[James MacDonald]

RayBiil,
I have remarked to my Wife that it seems All the pictures of Sawyer's on this site look a lot like me. Old Men. I do not know if it is because we used to like working with wood but got too Old, or.... My suggestion it takes a long time to own enough equipment and save enough money to buy a saw mill.  You are Never too old to run a sawmill, if you are smart enough to pace yourself and problem solve Our Aging Body issues.  The Young Need to Conquer, the old to just Produce.
Living in the desert of Eastern Washington however might be a larger hurdle. Your neighbors still need to import wood to build, you just need to buy the trees!
I love turning wood  on my Walker Turner lathe. Best projects were a crib and cradle for my Grand Daughter.
Jimmy Mac 61 and aging nicely. Miss my ass though for holding up my blue jeans!

[RayBell]

Ha, funny comment about missing your ass to hold up your pants. Seems as if I am always trying to tighten my belt, or pulling up my jeans. Pretty awkward and sometimes emBARASSing with both arms full. Sometimes have to have the wife follow me to keep them up.

[thecfarm]

RayBell,welcome to the forum. If the wife is not around,wear suspenders. 

[drobertson]

Howdy raybell, we all pull up the jeans, and scratch the head the same, just part of a day, pretty much all day, every day ;D  and real glad for the wife who puts up with it ;D won't mention the zipper that is occasionally down :D

[RayBell]

Thanks all, and note to self- replace wife with suspenders- naw, not going to happen :D

[thechknhwk]

C'mon now not all the sawyers are 60, and my pants still stay up with just a belt.