new equipment vs old equipment

[MICKEY108]

which is better a payment  or broke down have the time  just wondering what ya"ll thought

[Corley5]

I like no payments.  It's a matter of preference I suppose 

[thenorthman]

old equipment... keep up on the maintenance, and do as many repairs yourself, is a whole lot better than a 2-4000 payment hanging over my head anyday.  Besides if the breakdown is so bad as to cost that much... well just go out and get another oldy

[HiTech]

Payments have always made me nervous. lol A little preventive maintenance on older equipment and it will do you good. Fix small things before they get big if possible. Whether new or old...use common sense when operating it. A couple more trips to bring the wood out won't bankrupt you and may save expensive repair bills. To many times I have seen operators try to pull way too many trees and end up breaking something. Normally something expensive.

[coxy]

old is my way too     put the money in my hand not the bank  if it dies and cant fix send it to junk yard :'(  take the money find another thats just me    with new and the market takes a dump you pretty much work for nothing  more then we do now :D

[Woodhauler]

When break downs and down time cost more then a payment, its time to go! New with warrenty! At least when its paid for you know what you got! Not someone elses worn out iron!

[bill m]

I think it all depends on what the equipment is and what you expect of it. If it is something you are using every day to make a living with it I would go new but if only using it once or twice a month for personal use something used may be ok.

[PAFaller]

I stick with good condition used equipment and try not to impulse buy anything. So far been doing ok with what Im running. I found a decent condition 240A timberjack with a 353T detroit in it thats been the backbone of my business for the last 3.5 years. It needed some additional work in that time but its simple to maintain, sips fuel, and does what I need it to do. It wont pull monster hitches like some of the new stuff but it does what I ask of it and I can make a living with it. Same goes for my old Dodge, I hunted for almost a year to find a good condition 12valve Cummins for decent money and finally found one a few hours from home. Not sure what started the 'diesel trucks are so cool' trend but it seems as though everyone wants one and it took some serious searching. Other stuff like saws I just buy new. Ive found a few good one in garage sales or auctions over the years but for the most part small equipment is worth buying new. I think a lot depends on the scope of your business. If you are trying to produce 50+ loads a week and have big mill quotas you need iron that fires every day and keeps the wood moving. But new stuff breaks too, and anymore it seems you need a computer tech to find the problem before you even bring out the toolbox.

[rooster 58]

    If you have time to shop then go used. I bought my wm sawmill and edger for half of new equipment. The mill only has 198 hrs., the edger only 70.

    Then I purchase an old Trojan wheel loader out of the 80's. It wasn't used hard and should last quite some time ;)

[lumberjack48]

I bought new in the 70's, just my payments were $150. a day. Thats everyday, so if i took Sat. and Sun. off, Mon. morning i owned $450. Fri. night i had to subtract $1050. off the top of my gross for the week. It don't seem like that much, but every morning i woke up that was the first thing on my mind $$$$

The best way to buy equipment is though the mill, they take xx % out of the wood you haul in, this way your never in a bind with a due date. And they also make sure your pulling wood, gives you job security.

I wouldn't by new, i always leased one for 3 to 6 months before buying to make sure i liked it and if it was any good.  I ran everyday, logging was the only income we had year round, its how we made a living. Try to keep your overhead as low as you can. I walked the edge, i fell off a few times, but jumped right back on again.

[newstick]

Another thing is what your fuel costs are. ( cut to lenght is much better on fuel ). The Timbco I run with hot saw cuts lots of wood but also burns 10 to 12 gallons of fuel a hour. 3000 hours on it, thankfully the boss has to make the payments. ;D

[redprospector]

I buy used equipment.
I tried the new with warranty thing in 2011. I learned that no one cares if it's running as much as I do.
I bought a brand new Terex PT100G Forestry model in Feb. of 2011, of the 150 day's that I worked it 62 of those day's were spent sitting in the dealers shop. Long story short, it was so bad Terex finally gave me a new machine that I sold at a $12k loss to get out from under it. I now run a 2008 Bobcat T320 for that same job. It cost less than 1/2 what the Terex did, and has only been down twice in the last 2 years.
My skidder is 40 years old, I've got an 06 Fecon FTX90, an 80something JD 450b, a Hydro-ax 311c that only God knows how old it is, and a log loader that Noah brought over on the ark. Did I mention that my main pickup is 15 years old?
My equipment works every day that there is work. I work on it when there isn't.
So far (knock on wood) I have met every dead line, sometimes I have to scramble to do it. But then again I bet sometimes those with new equipment have to scramble to meet their dead lines.
It's just a way of life.

Andy

[cutter88]

in the words of my wife " you have old skidders, old loader, old skid steer and a brand new pick up whats the logic there" lol anyway i dont like big payments i have older equipment but its very well taken care of and will last me a long time!

[sjfarkas]

If I ever had the financial opportunity I'd buy new.  I'd be happy with something 2-3 years old.  I hate working on stuff. 

[Jasperfield]

You've asked us which is better: payments or questionably dependable equipment.

If you're assured of reasonably steady work, buy used equipment in good condition. If you're going to do this kind of work you need dependable equipment. Apparently, you're better at logging than you are at repairing equipment, otherwise you would be asking this question on an "equipment repair" forum for your repair business.

In example: If you have a month of typically available work, using run-out equipment, and have failures due to equipment condition, you will lose the potential (real) revenue and pay increasingly expensive repair costs as well. This approach to profitability will not work. You will continue to fall farther and farther behind until your work yard is littered with junk equipment, your bank account is four digits, and all the work has gone elsewhere.

Time and money spent finding (and traveling to inspect) good used equipment is well spent.

[newstick]

Well said Jasperfield ;)

[tlandrum]

id much rather have good used equipment thats paid for. i just spent the last 4 weeks down with a kidney stone until i had emergency surgery for it last week. if i had a big looming payment hanging over my head it just wouldnt be a good thing for me right now.

[brendonv]

The biggest problem I see is when people buy junk, and continue to dump more and more into them.  In the end you spent almost what it costs to buy a much newer machine/truck, or a new one.

I bought two new pieces of equipment.  Both had small problems, but nothing major.  The best thing about buying used, is that someone already spent the time fixing the factory defects.  All my other stuff was used, I was lucky to wait it out and find someone who loved the machine and cared for it before they got rid of it.

[chevytaHOE5674]

I make a living farming with old equipment, the newest being some 1980's vintage stuff. I have zero payments on any equipment or my land, it is all owned 100%. It is a huge weight off my shoulders knowing that I don't have to produce xxxx just to pay the the loans or mortgage. Having used cheaper equipment allows me to have multiples of things so I have backup in the event of a break down.   

Do I have my share of break downs? Yes
Do I enjoy working on things? Yes
Would I be profitable if I paid somebody to work on things for me? No
Could I be profitable with large payments hanging over my head? Usually Not

The key for me has been to shop around for good used equipment not just buying the first thing you see. I'm currently looking for another 100+ hp tractor and have looked at about 15 so far and haven't found just what I want in the condition I want so I just keep on looking. Spending an extra month looking can save a lot of time down the road.

[AlexInman06]

Right now I'm in the position where there is just so many breakdowns that it's unbelievable... The problem that we have is that we have a couple of payments right now out of necessity, so what do you do? Our buncher and log trailer have payments, and they run fine all day everyday! But the rest of our equipment that's paid off and ancient can't keep up with having to run all day... So it's seems as though we need to update the rest so we can actually work a full week. I'm not scared of work, just scared of working for nothing because my machines won't keep up...

The next problem with that is financing different equipment, ha! That's a joke! Whether it's buying or leasing if you don't have a spotless record then it's just plain hard to find financing! :(

[thenorthman]

Its a catch 22.  To keep up with the big boys you need to spend big money, but until you have the work lined up to pay for it... ya can't pay for it.  Could be that just getting another used machine in good shape would make up for any lack of production that the others have compared to a new machine? 10-60k for used versus 100-400k and still get decent production numbers, to me that's easy math

[lumberjack48]

If i had the money to by new, i still wouldn't. A guy can pick one up like 2,3,4 yrs old for half the money, just like new.

Like a skidder, motor, tran, winch, rear ends, tires, pins, if there all good, your good to go. Theres no reason to put white shirts on salesmen and bankers.

[Ken]

New is great if you have the guaranteed work or retained earnings to justify it.  I have spent many hours on the road looking for used gear that was well maintained.  Used machines in good shape often require considerable more wrenching than new but when they are working they are often as productive as new stuff. 

Cheers
Ken

[jocco]

Very well said

If i had the money to by new, i still wouldn't. A guy can pick one up like 2,3,4 yrs old for half the money, just like new.

Like a skidder, motor, tran, winch, rear ends, tires, pins, if there all good, your good to go. Theres no reason to put white shirts on salesmen and bankers.

[cutter88]

id much rather have good used equipment thats paid for. i just spent the last 4 weeks down with a kidney stone until i had emergency surgery for it last week. if i had a big looming payment hanging over my head it just wouldnt be a good thing for me right now.

that's right I feel the same way

[thecfarm]

tlandrum,you all set now? Step son,is 36 and he just passed his last night. His was small,3mm,and they did not want to do any surgery,laser or nothing. Was a long 4 days for him.  : and long for the family too.  :(

[Ed_K]

Tonight's powerball  8) they I'd buy new. I spent 12k on the 72 taylor skidder,all running gear is rebuilt 199.9hrs now, pin&bushing maybe 275 hrs.It needs tires sometime and another paint job and it now paid for again.And it uses 8gals of fuel in 10hrs. Only problem is finding work right now to work it  :( .

[hardtailjohn]

I prefer older stuff. That being said, I enjoy working on it, and improving it so that I prevent future problems. If you're going to be paying someone to work on your stuff, you're doomed.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that new stuff breaks down too....and it doesn't make you one more penny than an old machine when it's sitting there broken. Alot of the newer stuff being computer controlled, can't be "limped" home or through the day like the manual controlled stuff, so you're just down...right here and right now....and you still have that payment....the only difference is that you'll probably be able to get a mechanic out tomorrow to take a shot at fixing it on warranty.

[thenorthman]

You know what buy it new, with all the warranties and extra goodies.  Then a few years from now, 5-8-10 whatever... you can sell it to the rest of us for pennies on the dollar ;D.  If it wasn't for someone out there buying new the rest of us wouldn't have any equipment :laugh:

[cutter88]

You know what buy it new, with all the warranties and extra goodies.  Then a few years from now, 5-8-10 whatever... you can sell it to the rest of us for pennies on the dollar ;D.  If it wasn't for someone out there buying new the rest of us wouldn't have any equipment :laugh:

so true! I looked at a new skid steer last year was almost 44000 bucks I bought one with just over 1500hrs on it for 12000 so yes just keep buying new lol :D

[jd540b]

I think to some extent, it boils down to lifestyle.  Do you want to be able to make a decent living on 3-5 loads a week (with low overhead and turn a few wrenches) or do you want to have to cut 20-30 loads a week(and lay awake at night because it's too muddy to work, or the mill is on quota, or your still turning wrenches on a $150,000 skidder)?  Do you want to be able to have a 100 acre woodlot last you a year or 2 months, etc., etc.......??? That's how I see it. 

[MICKEY108]

i bought a jd 450c dozer  i got burnt bad trans was bad  i give 11,500 4 it spent alot of money on the machine traded for a tj 240A 1200 to boot got a extra 453 moter with it had 2 replace blade cyinder ,winch,rebuilt walking beam and count less other things i still don"t have brakes the motor smokes bad its ether adicit it runs real good  its just me logging i though a new dozer or payment would b better i could cut roads and skid with it its easy logging or terrian not steep but when i leave there its staight up and down on my other bountrys i will need a dozer iv been broke down more then ive logged i live in sw va

[treefarmer87]

I would rather have equipment that's paid for. my loader is older the flywheel and starter messed up. I got the parts for $50 and it will be fixed in a day or so.

[smwwoody]

I have done it both ways.  you normally either pay the bank or pay the parts store.

I am taking a different approach this time.

I got away from logging for about 10 years now i am back in it.

I almost started back out with new stuff but i didnt.  I bought an old truck and skidder fixed them both up a little and put them in the woods.  once I got the opperation rolling i bought a much newer truck in real good shape that i new could run for a year or 2 with no major work.  now i am buying used logging equipment and rebuilding it top to bottem before i put it in the woods.

like the 170 in the new motor thread  https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,64871.0.html  it has a new engine rebuilt every hydraulic cylinder and all pins and bushings.  i have less than half of what the machine is worth into it.  you can buy these old beat up worn out machines cheep.  i will run it for a few months then paint it and put tires on it once i am sure it is all right.  then onto the next one