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Advice on finding a timber company.

Started by Paschale, April 12, 2004, 11:29:23 AM

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Paschale

Hi all,

My family owns land in the the U.P. of Michigan with about 20 acres of it consisting of hardwoods, primarily maple and ash.  My dad received an unsolicited letter in the mail from a timber company interested in buying and cutting some of our trees.  I've done some research over the past few years on woodland management, and it's clear that to maintain the health of a forest, selective cutting is necessary and important.  As we talked about this over the holiday weekend, I thought I'd do some more research, and post some questions to members of the forestry forum.  We're considering having some of our wood cut, but we want to definitely do it right.  First, we don't want to have too much cut out, and would be suspicious of a lumber company's advice on how much would be smart to cut, with the understanding that their primary objective is to make some money off the deal.  Also, how is it possible to know if you're getting a fair market value for the wood that is cut?  These trees are very desirable.  Most of them are straight as an arrow, with hardly a branch for perhaps 40-50 feet or so.  My dad and I harvested an ash tree a couple of summers ago and came up with four 8 ft logs, which made fantastic lumber.  No doubt a tree like that would be valuable to a lumber company.  So, the big questions are, 1). what should you look for when trying to hire a logging company, and 2). how can you best determine the market value for your trees, and finally 3). are there some good resources where one can get information on proper cutting to maintain a healthy forest.  And as a side note, my grandfather in the past was able to harvest some birds eye maple from this land--it seems to me that in any contract of this nature, there would need to be a clause regarding the possibility of cutting down a maple with birds eye figure, which would dramatically increase the price.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Dan in Grand Rapids
Y'all can pronounce it "puh-SKOLLY"

Texas Ranger

Find your self a consulting forester in your area, and let him mark and possibly sell the timber for you.  Selling to a logger is equivalent to the three pigs inviting the wolf in for dinner.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Jeff

*DanG it Don Staples A statement that broad and general that includes all loggers aint fair and you know it.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

Paschale, some of the best info you can get is right here. Ron Scott and the other foresters will have some good contacts for you and answers to any specific question. You might also do some boning up at www.timberbuyer.net

Michigan has many fine loggers that are very good stewards of the forest. Most of them in fact. The problem is there are a few out there that give the rest a bad name..
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Runningcoyote

Dan

My first suggestion would be to enlist the help of a Conservation District Forester in the area up there.  You have 3 choices depending on were the property is located, Rory Mattson, Jim Sweeting, and Chris Burnett.  These guys offer their services free of charge but are limited on the service they offer.  They should be able to steer you in the right direction on were to go from there.  It is very important to have a inventory done, this shows you what you have on your propriety and give you an idea what is worth.  When a timber buyer gives you a appraisal for your timber they are generally telling you what they will give you for your trees, not what they are worth.  You wouldn't go into a real estate office ask for an appraisal of your house and expect the agent to tell you they'll give you 30,000$ for your home?  You shouldn't expect this with timber sales either.  Consulting Foresters are good and generally pay for themselves when the sale comes through also their services I believe are tax deductible. Look for a consulting forester that offers Timber taxes as apart of their services.  Use the following links to find your conservation district forester in your area let them direct you toward a consulting forester.  Find out what the DNR is getting for their timber in your area, they do timber inventory before they put there timber up for bid you should do this also.  Last use the Wisconsin Web site to educate yourself on forestry.  Go luck and grow them BIG!

http://www.michigan.gov/mda/0,1607,7-125-1566_2311-5212--,00.html

http://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/econ/data/prices/index_b.htm

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/forestry/Publications/Guidelines/toc.htm


          

Jeff

Welcome Runningcoyote!

Good advice. Thank you.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

SwampDonkey

RunningCoyote:

Welcome, and your advice is as sound as anyone could give.

Paschale:

As Jeff_B and coyote both pointed out, consult with your local Foresters for the best advice. They can help you plan your harvest and layout the work before actual cutting begins. Research your local markets for specs and prices. You may wish to become a member of your local woodlot association, if one exists.

Friar_Don:

Alot of times those wolves know alot about cutting wood, but lack proper felling techniques or knowledge of stand dynamics. Its like the guy that walked in the office and said he didn't need no compass to run a straight line, he always walks in straight lines. ;)

don't bust a stitch :D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Texas Ranger

Jeff, how does a new owner/manager tell the good ones from the bad ones?  About 1/3 of my job is helping clean up the mess of "inviting the wolf in".  Another third is representing the land owner in court over the law suit, or the criminal complaint.

Fact, bubba, the ones that send the letters are the ones to watch. Fact two, there is no device on the loggers letter head that identifies him as one of the good guys.  Fact three, no one guarantees the loggers, not the mills, not the middle man, not the forester, only a contract and a man on the ground will hold a logger to the contract as best as possible.

Tell me you would guarantee every logger that hauls to your mill.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Jeff

Heck no I wouldnt Don. Truth is you can say the thing about a few foresters. And your right about the letter. A land owner should seek out thier own information.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Wenrich

There are only a handful of good consultants in my area.  There are a lot that will mark your wood and find you a logger.  Their marking isn't much better than a loggers nor is their scale.  A lot will dump merchantible undesirable into the cull section and give it to the logger.  I posted about that and most guys say that's how they do it.  And more and more are just starting to market to loggers without going through the bid process.  See it all the time.

When I was a consultant, I used to routinely send out letters.  I also sent out a newsletter.  Sometimes that is the easiest way to make a contact.  

My point is, it doesn't matter if you are getting a consultant, a logger or a mill, get a second opinion!  Doesn't hurt to get a third or fourth.  If you're hiring a consultant, maybe you should put the job out on bids and see how the consultants do on the bidding process.  That rarely happens since most consultants charge the same rate.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

All good points to ponder guys:

I would make some notes concerning the consultants. And they are these:

1. If you receive an unsoliticed letter from a consultant, its only a form of advertising. I get a mail box full of unsoliticed mail, but I don't automatically think the senders are suspicious. There's just some services I'm not interested in, so they get filed in trash. ;)

2. If  you use a consultant or timber logger ask for at least three references and ask him if he belongs to a forestry association or such group which can be verified. This doesn't necessarily mean a registered professional forester, because in most provinces except BC and Quebec there is no real peer review process of their members and some are not very visible to the public. A vocal woodlot association or loggers' association in some areas can be more revered often times. I'm not trying to bash RPF's, just an example, sorry. Again visibility to the public eye goes a long way, in either direction. ;)

3. Have a management plan done on your woodlot where you can set your goals and objectives. Have it prepared by a professional who is experienced and even better, have the plan reviewed by your woodlot association, someone impartial. I'de recommend having the consultant whom you chose for the ground work, write the plan. Sometimes hiring a third party to prepare your plan, you can get some impossible prescriptions. Not always of course, because its related more to experience.

4. Negotiate the stumpage rates, and this is best done after you have your management plan so you have a better idea of quality. Keep in mind that once trees are cut, the inside of the stem will reveal other defects not seen in the tree bark or tree form. ;)

5. Discuss with your consultant what is expected of the job and go with him for a walk, once the ground is laid out for harveting. You can see where the trails are and what trees will be cut or left, as they are marked.

6. Remember , your the woodlot owner and the boss. In your contract there should be a clause that states you can hault all activities if the work being performed does not meet your expectations. But, pay your consultant for his/her efforts up to that point. If you've chosen this person carefully for the job, expect that he/she has done his/her best. That individual is trying to make a living as well as you.

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Texas Ranger

The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Runningcoyote

The bottom line:

In the last 20 or so years our industry has taken some hits form the huggers and the public.  Some of this criticism is well deserved; it is up to us to try to make up for years of bad management by a few.  How do we do it?  Well in Michigan, Michigan State University Extension is offering Sustainable Forestry Education Classes for local loggers, subjects include, BMPs, wildlife management, safety etc.  Loggers get credit hours for taking these classes to retain their SFE certificate.  It is then up to the mills to buy from loggers who current on their certification.  Is it prefect?  NO, but it is something.  I go to these whenever I get a chance.  A few times that I have gone to these classes loggers have made the commit that they were hired by a forester who laid out the cut and high graded it all.  And that they were following the timber prescription as written by the forester.  Now I don't what to judge another man's work, maybe that's what the landowner wanted, maybe not.  But that puts the logger in a bind, because he's going to take the heat, sure he can walk away, and I'll buy anyone who does a beer but beer don't pay the bills.  And everyone knows that if one logger turns it down based on morals that forester is just going to find another company that will cut it.  We need to look in the mirror before we start pointing fingers at the loggers; it is too easy to make them the scapegoat.  

As far as more advice for Dan, MSUE offers a Woodlot Manger course that is similar to the Master Gardner course.  It takes a few weekends to complete but it address jargon, BMPs, silvics, timber taxes etc.  Get an INVENTORY done! This way when you put your trees up for bid you know what you have and everyone is comparing apples to apples.   Also use your public foresters first, DNR and Conservation Districts, these guys will help you find the best match in a consulting forester for you.  Each forester is different and offers different services, also public foresters offer cost share programs for things like TSI and reforestation, consulting foresters can offer these things too but usually they don't because they can't make enough money doing them.  It is in my opinion better to get a second opinion and some options before doing anything. I would rather work with a landowner who is ready to cut then to work with a guy that I have to sale the idea of forestry to.  Hats off to you Dan for realizing you need advice and coming here before letting someone take advantage of you and giving the rest of use a bad name.  Good luck and Grow them BIG!

Paschale

Hi all,

What can I say but "wow!"  You guys are great, and I appreciate all of the input.  I stumbled on the forestry forum a few years ago, and had tons of help with a long held dream of harvesting a tree from our family land, and I'm happy to say that this spring, I'll be making furniture from that wood.  You all were helpful then, and I must say, the advice you've all given so far has been empowering to say the least!  Your posts have raised a couple of issues, which I intend to pursue.  I'd like to formulate a management plan for our land, as well as taking a thorough inventory.  Our land is somewhat near Escanaba--does anyone know which of the three U.P. DNR foresters mentioned would be the one to contact?  A question about this however.  There is part of our land which is a bit swampy--there is a fear of having a government official walk the land and determine that it's wetland, though by no means is it a bog--there's just a small portion with some cedars and marsh--is this something to be concerned about?

I appreciate the kind words of Runningcoyote: "Hats off to you Dan for realizing you need advice and coming here before letting someone take advantage of you and giving the rest of use a bad name."  My dad is very leary of having any timber cut on our land, because the two times in the past 100 or so years that we've owned our land, some timber was cut, and our family did really get the short end of the stick from unscrupulous individuals.  It's personal with my father, since his mother, who was a widow, tried to make some extra money.  The logger that cut the virgin hemlock down cut it below size, upping his cut rate, and making it impossible for my grandmother to sell.  As one can understand, my father is suspicious, which is why I'm so adamant to try and redeem those failures on our land, and have it done right this time around.  With information such as what you all are giving me, I'm convinced that if and when we decide to harvest timber from our land, it will be done right, and fairly, so thank you all very much!
Y'all can pronounce it "puh-SKOLLY"

Ron Wenrich

From what I understand, growing and harvesting timber in wetlands is an acceptable practice.  If you want to really minimize any damages, have any harvest during either the dry season or the frozen season.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Runningcoyote

Dan
This web site should help you find what your looking for.  This is for the Consevation District Foresters, I don't know who the DNR guy is in that area but the district guy is Rory Mattson.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/MDA_FAPMapFY04_87859_7.pdf

http://www.michigan.gov/mda/0,1607,7-125-1566_2311-5212--,00.html

Bro. Noble

I think every woodland owner who is interested in managing his timber should educate himself.  The Extension service,  Conservation service and others have literature on timber stand improvement,  marketing,  etc.  This may be directed more to the owner that plans to do his own work,  but is also important info. if you are going to hire someone to do it.  The more you know about it,  the harder it is to give you a skinning.
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Ron Scott

Good Advice given.

Your local DNR Service Forester is:

Ernie Houghton
Escanaba: 906-786-2351

You might also want to contact:

Jerry Grossman
Grossman Forestry Company
Newberry: 906-293-8707

~Ron

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