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Firewood TOO dry

Started by Ford_man, March 09, 2013, 09:30:10 AM

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Ford_man

I was told several years ago that firewood that was too dry don't have enough moisture to produce the gas to maximize the heat from the wood. Has anyone ever heard this. splitwood_smiley

beenthere

Not true, IMO.
Comes from someone trying to justify selling you green wood, or wood not seasoned long enough.
I like it good and dry as it gives off more heat.

Now granted, burn times (smouldering times if you wish) can be adjusted and maybe fine tuned with some "less than dry" wood, but that is a personal matter with knowing a lot about heat needs and knowledge of the wood stove. All are a bit different, and it takes time to learn all the angles.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

r.man

Control can be achieved with varying moisture content but I agree that drier is better. I know someone who is burning 5 yr old wood and not complaining about it being too dry.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

doctorb

Ford_man-

I, too, have heard that, and I have seen it mentioned here on the Forum.  Outside, wood will only dry to a given point, as the ambient temperature and humidity will not allow it to go lower.  I would guess that this is very dependent upon where you are located, as the desert would be an ideal place to season wood, and a rain forest may not be.  If you are not placing your firewood into a kiln to control the drying environment, I would not worry about your wood being too dry.  For every wood burner here on the Forum, I'll bet each of them would rather burn wood that's as dry as you can get it, wherever you live, than wood that's still green.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

martyinmi

Google "wood too dry" Ford_man. :P
Too dry wood can cause a few issues suck as "huffing", which can lend itself to stuck solenoids form too much creosote, as well as fan housings and squirrel cages plugging up with creosote.

I'm with doc though. I'd rather have a pile of 15% mc wood to burn than 30%. If I'd get too much huffing, I could(and do) add some wetter stuff to help control the burn.
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gpearston

Isn't creasote content and moisture level directly tied together? 

beenthere

gpear
I gather it isn't so direct, as a lot will also depend on the wood stove design and its operation, including the stack construction.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Slabs

I echo doctorb.

A LOT of extra moisture SEEMS to induce more creosote percipitation in the stack if it isn't hot enough to keep the moisture from condensing on the walls of the stack.  As evidenced on the floor below Ol' Smokey's output plenum.

Every pound (about a pint) of water you have to evaporate in the boiler sends 970 BTU up the stack instead of into the house.
Slabs  : Offloader, slab and sawdust Mexican, mill mechanic and electrician, general flunky.  Woodshop, metal woorking shop and electronics shop.

CTYank

Quote from: gpearston on March 09, 2013, 01:53:58 PM
Isn't creasote content and moisture level directly tied together?

No. "Creosote" results from incomplete combustion of volatiles. Available oxygen, high temps (>1000F), time and turbulence are the keys. Water is a lousy fuel, and a common fire-fighting agent, because of cooling effect. Because of that, it can make complete combustion difficult- so, you need extra primary air, and fire eventually "takes off."

Firebrick (or sintered vermiculite) lining of firebox serves to keep temps up- a Good Thing. Then, when gases leave firebox, conduction of heat can get serious.

Never, ever met wood that's too dry. Never. Old Wives', or scammer's tale. BS.
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SwampDonkey

Also on the wood storage, not only the climate. If it's in a heated dry building it continues to dry as you heat the house. There is no heat in water, unless your splitting atoms. :D I don't want anything to do with smoldery fires, bad business. Even with seasoned wood, a smoldery fire is still no good.

The guys around here on the green wood kick, cut it today and burn it tonight. My grandfather's neighbors years ago were always gathering wood with a hand sled, fresh cut off the stump in the winter time when most were working on the next years wood. They would place the green frozen wood on the oven door to melt off the ice and snow before adding to the fire. One of the boys that grew up in that family said he was never going to do that any more. He was going to have it cut ahead. And he's now in his 80's and still has his wood cut and stacked well in advance for the next fire season. However, one winter his wife wasn't thinking clearly and decided to clean the ashes out of the stove and put them in a cardboard box. Set it out on the porch. ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

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Al_Smith

With wet wood you first have to boil the moisure out of it .The volatable gasses which in fact create the creosote aren't hot enough to combust and the resulting residue is what causes the formation of creosote .

Depends on how you burn it too .If you load that stove up to the top and close it down no matter who made it it will cresote .On the other hand if you build up a good bed of coals and only add wood enough for a couple hours at a time  it stands to reason you will not get the build up nearly as bad .You get just as much heat out of it too if you do it right .

martyinmi

Quote from: CTYank on March 10, 2013, 01:20:40 AM

Never, ever met wood that's too dry. Never. Old Wives', or scammer's tale. BS.

Have you ever ran a down draft gasification unit? Or spoke to an engineer who designed them? ???

I didn't think so.

There is a reason that the ideal moisture content of well seasoned wood is considered 20%. :o

Continue your studies compadre. You'll catch on soon enough. ;)
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Al_Smith

 :D Nephew you are compairing apples to oranges .A gassifier is a different breed of cat than a regular burner .

On a regular old stove with a design that is older  than dirt not too many of them are designed to burn off the gasses like a gasser .I built one a long time ago build on the design of a Vermont downdrafter and did it ever work fine .Never the less it was a gasser by design .It created very little accumulation of creosote ,only the top 6 inchs of the flue where it exited the roof and not much there either .

So you folks with multi thousand dollar high tech gassers are in a different ball game than us lowly peons with our old wood stoves .Never the less both provide heat .

The difference is we of lowly means prefer nice dry oak ,hickory,ash  etc. while you folks could burn swamp willow if you choose to .Come to think about it though it might be all you can find in the middle of a swamp so that might have something to do with it . ;D

beenthere

And speak to the engineers and techs that do the third party stove testing to come up with the measurements for the EPA ratings, certification, etc.

They use very dry wood sticks under very controlled conditions. Just so they can control one more variable.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Al_Smith

 :D Oh Lawdy don't tell me the EPA got their noses into wood stoves now ,good grief . What is this world coming to now ?

Geeze they keep on next thing you know they'll insist on a catalytic converter on a horse .That or insist that Beano be a part of it's diet .I almost think they are starting to think like Al Gore and his theory of too many grazing animals .Cow farts,bad business he said .

What about whales though ? One big old blue whale could  cause more flactuation than a whole herd of black anges .Beano for marine mammels maybe but just one whale would take a bushell basket full .

I suppose they might whine and cry if you burned old tires in the stove but mankind has been burning wood since they discovered fire .Much before Bic lighters were ever thought of .

doctorb

I don't have the anser to this conundrum, but I can tell you this.  I have been running a gasser (2300) for four heating seasons.  Almost every stick I have put into it has been oak, black locust or maple, and almost every stick had a MC of between 15-20%.  I have occasionally thrown in a log or two with higher MC, but not often.  I have never had any huffing, and I have never had difficulty maintaining a long duration coal bed. 

From the comments over the years here on the FF, I have got to disagree with AL a little bit.  IMO, it's the older technology, pre-gasser OWB's that could burn wood that's just been cut.  My understanding of the gassifier stoves is that, with green wood and a prolonged idle time, restarting the fire between cycles gets difficult and you can have your fire go out completely.  As has been mentioned already, green wood's moisture must be steamed off, decreasing the heat output.  Gassers are all about a healthy hot coal bed to burn the smoke with downdrafting through the coals.  Wet wood would impede that process, IMO.  So you read that some OWB owners can cut, split and feed that wood to their unit the same day, but that is not what I believe will work with a modern gassifier stove.  As a matter of fact, one of the downsides of this new technology is the space required to store your fuel ahead of time, so that, when you use it, it's nice and seasoned.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

thecfarm

Swampdonkey is talking about a wood stove,almost sounds like a cook stove. I really don't see how they kept warm. Or did they?  ;D   I was late getting my wood in at my other house one year. That was a bad year trying to keep the fire going. I got SOME heat,but I had to open the draft more to do it. I knew better.
Now I have a OWB. I burned green wood about a half season just to try an experiment.I still had enough dry so if my great idea did not work I could grab the dry wood and be saved from another dumb idea. This OWB was brought when the gassers were still on the drawing board. I got plenty of heat,but the fans ran more to dry out the wood and more steam-smoke was produced too. More wood was burnt too. Not an experiment I will need to do again.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Al_Smith

Oh now Doc I wasn't refering to a 1920 Round Oak pot belly parlor stove .Just an old standard plate steel stove used my a majority of people these days .Again it's all how you burn it .Never the less the coal bed in same has a great deal to do with how efficiently and how cleanly it burns .

Now I will indeed agree the optimum would be wood storage under some type of canopy .However my method of stacking on pallets under a plastic tarp has just as about as good of results .

Now you can get both extremes .People who mound up huge piles with no cover where it gets rain and snow and becomes homes for every critter known to man kind .

Conversely to have Swampish up there in the frozen tundra with a semi load in the basement .Good idea I suppose if you can do it .Might end up with a basement full of bugs is all  .They would be nice and warm though . ;D

r.man

I have burned green wood for extended periods of time in an OWB and the times that creosote built up in excessive amounts were when the combustion fan failed and when I didn't clean the ashes soon enough. If you impede the burn it will drip off the walls, if you burn hot the green wood doesn't produce much creosote on the inside of the stove.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

thecfarm

Not that it really matters,I do not notice a creosote in ANY wood that I have burned in my OWB. I have played around with all types of wood,wood that is dry,wood that is wet,wood that I picked up off the forest floor half rotten,both in the fall and frozen in the winter,wood that is standing dead for years,this is all both soft and hardwood. I am clearing a grown up pasture and either it goes into the brush pile,which does me no good, or the OWB and I get some heat from it. No matter what it's all going to make smoke.  ;D
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Al_Smith

You have to keep in mind most OWB's are  forced draft burners or at least those I've seen are .

It's kind of like compairing the old gravity natural draft furnaces to a stoker fed induced draft type .The former will blow black smoke to beat the band and the later will burn with almost  no smoke if the air adjustment is correct .Really it's kind of like running a gasoline engine with the choke about completely set closed  .

tyb525

Water from wood doesn't cause creosote, a cold fire does. So if you could burn green wood hot enough it won't creosote.

I have heard wood that dries too long begins losing the oils in the wood that burn and gasify. I don't have any firsthand proof to back that up though.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

SwampDonkey

Al, as far as bugs go, that presupposes that this old farm house has a finished basement. What I have is a rock wall. Any bugs I have is gonna be there wood or not. Bugs and dirt off wood doesn't win the argument. If that was the case don't hang the clothes out on the line and don't track yard dirt and grass into the wife's kitchen. Don't let the screen door hit ya on the way out. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ford_man

I buy logs from a timber cutter that does a lot of clear cuts. The logs that I got this past summer I just stacked in a pile and will cut them this spring and put the wood in the woodshed. It is a lot less work to just run the elevator into the woodshed and fill it up than to pile cut wood on the barnyard and then move it. My woodshed is a leanto 12*32 ft closed on 3 sides with a 2 inch opening on the bottom of 2 walls and an opening about 10 inches along the one side. the front of the shed is open to the south. (A sliding door would be nice in the winter)
splitwood_smiley

Al_Smith

 :D Well Swamp it's not a big deal .If you toss the wood bugs and all into that furnace the bugs make heat too .

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