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CB with lots of smoke when windy

Started by sam-tip, February 27, 2013, 09:14:56 PM

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sam-tip

My CB 3200 does not burn well when the wind is 20 mph or greater.  I have 5 sections of stack and is way above the garage.  The wind blows between the shop and the house and directed to the garage.  The boiler is behind the garage.  3000 sq ft L shaped garage.  How is the wind effecting the draft?  The picture is before I added two sections and still is smoking when windy.

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28038/Central_Boiler_023_small.jpg
Central Boiler E3200 WiFi
Many many ported chainsaws. 201 to 3120
TM log splitter pro30 6 way head
D&L 1020 swing blade sawmill for slabbing
Timberking 1220

clww

Many Stihl Saws-16"-60"
"Go Ask The Other Master Chief"
18-Wheeler Driver

sam-tip

Very dry hard wood.  Oak and walnut dried for over two years.
Central Boiler E3200 WiFi
Many many ported chainsaws. 201 to 3120
TM log splitter pro30 6 way head
D&L 1020 swing blade sawmill for slabbing
Timberking 1220

thecfarm

For starters,how long have you had this OWB? Have you tried it with just one sections and no cap? Or maybe the cap is causing some problem? Do you have a blower on this unit?
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

sam-tip

Only tried it with 3 and 5 sections of stack.  I lost the rain cap for second half of the first year.  It was blown off during a back draft explosion.  It runs very clean when not windy.  I did have a corn furnace at the same location and it had some kind of pressure auto damper/flapper on the exhaust of the corn furnace.  When windy it would flap/open alot.

It has a small induction fan/blower.
Central Boiler E3200 WiFi
Many many ported chainsaws. 201 to 3120
TM log splitter pro30 6 way head
D&L 1020 swing blade sawmill for slabbing
Timberking 1220

leonz

Quote from: sam-tip on February 27, 2013, 09:14:56 PM
My CB 3200 does not burn well when the wind is 20 mph or greater.  I have 5 sections of stack and is way above the garage.  The wind blows between the shop and the house and directed to the garage.  The boiler is behind the garage.  3000 sq ft L shaped garage.  How is the wind effecting the draft?  The picture is before I added two sections and still is smoking when windy.

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28038/Central_Boiler_023_small.jpg



As much as I hate those things as they are so poorly designed
a few things come to mind.

How high is the peak of the garage? The chimney should be several feet
above the peak of the garage.

Where is the nearest other building besides the garage and what is its height?.

How small do you split your wood? Unsplit rounds do not burn well by themselves.

Any shelter belt tree line will effect the flow of wind in the area.

If you had a draft explosion the boiler was chasing the unburned
oxygen out of the firebox and then out through the chimney out
of the chimney and the force and pressure of the flame wave
burning and racing out of the chimney was great enough to
blow the chimney cap off the stack. 


Check to be sure the fans mounting flange is sealed properly
and is not leaking by sealing the chimney with a heavy steel pail
when the fire is out and the boiler is cold and then bypass the
fan control to start it up and if there is leak at the flange it
should be evident with soapy water.


It may be entirely that that the combustion fan is too too small
or the fan is bad.

I have heard of this happening on the other boilers in the AS forum.

AsaG

What's the temperature in the reaction chamber when this is happening?  Is it running > 550°F? 

I'm glad to learn I'm not the only one who's managed to blow off a rain cap!  :D

sam-tip

This is the second season for the Boiler.  When smoking the reaction temps stay around 600 to 750.  I just got a bigger blower and will swap it out this weekend. Not much bigger.  It is rated at 145 not 115 cfm.   I also have a spare fan and I figured how to run two fans.  But if one fan is stronger than the other the weaker fan will lose air.   

Central Boiler E3200 WiFi
Many many ported chainsaws. 201 to 3120
TM log splitter pro30 6 way head
D&L 1020 swing blade sawmill for slabbing
Timberking 1220

Ohiowood

Mine smoke like that a few times, it was always to much ash/coal bed and or the holes plugged. Oxygen deprived.

Sonofman

Sam-tip, I see from the picture the wind appears to be sliding down the roof of the garage and pushing the smoke down. Does it still do this since you added the extra sections to the pipe. If it does, the wind may be pushing air down the pipe, or just hindering the draft enough to slow the combustion when it is on burn. I do not have a gasser, so I am somewhat limited in the help I can give.
Located due west of Due West.

sam-tip

Smoke still does blow down with the extra pipe.  I am wondering if the wind is coming over the wind break and house and pushing down on the stack.  The smoke does not rise.  It drifts down.  The top of the stack is about the same height of the white pine trees and the peak of the house.  30ft total height.  The house is 100ft away and the wind break is about 150ft away from stack.  Then peak of the garage is 16 ft from stack.

It will be interesting in a few years when the pines get even bigger. 


Central Boiler E3200 WiFi
Many many ported chainsaws. 201 to 3120
TM log splitter pro30 6 way head
D&L 1020 swing blade sawmill for slabbing
Timberking 1220

Sonofman

I'm thinking that might be at least part of the problem. If you could get a cap back on the top, one that is fairly much wider than the pipe, it might help. It will be for certain a quick and cheap thing to try. Other than that, I really have no idea.
Located due west of Due West.

leonz

Quote from: sam-tip on February 28, 2013, 09:19:31 PM
Smoke still does blow down with the extra pipe.  I am wondering if the wind is coming over the wind break and house and pushing down on the stack.  The smoke does not rise.  It drifts down.  The top of the stack is about the same height of the white pine trees and the peak of the house.  30ft total height.  The house is 100ft away and the wind break is about 150ft away from stack.  Then peak of the garage is 16 ft from stack.

It will be interesting in a few years when the pines get even bigger.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I now know more than I did earlier about your problem.

I would strongly suggest you find out how much it would
cost you to have a block chimney tied in to the exhaust
of the OWB.

A short term fix would be to either move or elevate the gasser
by building a tall island of good crushed bank
run gravel and move the gasser to it and add pipe.
as your location is 90% of the problem.


You have no win situation with it now.

beenthere

Leonz
Where are you located? In which state?
Didn't see it in your bio.

Thanks for the info.
Finger Lakes region in NY state.

I don't follow why the need for such a drastic change to the OP's situation. Certainly doesn't seem to be in line with other CB installations that work quite well, from reading about them on this forum.
But then, your suggestions are in line with others that you have posted so do appreciate that you have strong feeling for your way to burn wood. ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

sam-tip

I am in central Iowa.  I had a sheet metal guy tell me to try a wind deflector.  A shield to help block the wind on the cap.  I currently am using the rain cap.  My old corn burner didn't have a bird shield and kept getting birds in the stack pipe.  Scary trying to get a live bird out of the back of a corn burner.  Big birds.  Not sparrows.  I was at a cement plant in Arkansas a few weeks ago and they get turkey vulchers in their stack.  They opened the ID fan to check it and there was a live turkey vulcher inside.   
Central Boiler E3200 WiFi
Many many ported chainsaws. 201 to 3120
TM log splitter pro30 6 way head
D&L 1020 swing blade sawmill for slabbing
Timberking 1220

clww

An observation of mine has been driving around up in the mountains at the cabin, I see more than a dozen OWBs operating. Lots of smoke from all the ones I see, no matter the length of pipe, the time of day/night,  or location in relation to other structures. I assumed a great deal of smoke was just a normal occurrence.
Many Stihl Saws-16"-60"
"Go Ask The Other Master Chief"
18-Wheeler Driver

leonz

Quote from: sam-tip on March 01, 2013, 07:16:54 AM
I am in central Iowa.  I had a sheet metal guy tell me to try a wind deflector.  A shield to help block the wind on the cap.  I currently am using the rain cap.  My old corn burner didn't have a bird shield and kept getting birds in the stack pipe.  Scary trying to get a live bird out of the back of a corn burner.  Big birds.  Not sparrows.  I was at a cement plant in Arkansas a few weeks ago and they get turkey vulchers in their stack.  They opened the ID fan to check it and there was a live turkey vulcher inside.


The vultures will light on the edge of the kilns cement chimney as they see it as a place to rest and the exhaust gasses will knock them out just like it would for your corn burner.

sam-tip

Ok I think I figured something out today.  My dealer kept saying there must be a blockage.  To me that mean not enough air.  Today I installed a second blower to my E3200.  This made the boiler smoke worse.  After 30 minutes of it smoking so bad and low combustion temps I figured I better take the second blow off. Two blowers was to much air.  So then I covered up half the inlet to the stock blower.  Wow.  The smoke was gone and my temps went from 500 - 600 to 1200 - 1310.   I must be getting to much draft with high winds.  I am trying to attach a chart of the change in temps

Central Boiler E3200 WiFi
Many many ported chainsaws. 201 to 3120
TM log splitter pro30 6 way head
D&L 1020 swing blade sawmill for slabbing
Timberking 1220

leonz

Quote from: sam-tip on March 01, 2013, 08:24:26 PM
Ok I think I figured something out today.  My dealer kept saying there must be a blockage.  To me that mean not enough air.  Today I installed a second blower to my E3200.  This made the boiler smoke worse.  After 30 minutes of it smoking so bad and low combustion temps I figured I better take the second blow off. Two blowers was to much air.  So then I covered up half the inlet to the stock blower.  Wow.  The smoke was gone and my temps went from 500 - 600 to 1200 - 1310.   I must be getting to much draft with high winds.  I am trying to attach a chart of the change in temps

Your high winds have nothing to do with it as it is a sealed combustion chamber with a
forced draft combustion chamber.

With your second blower you have introduced more air into the firebox than it can consume
and created a smoke pot as the air supplied is snuffing out the fire

If it was straight oxygen you would have a rooster tail of fire exiting the stack.


As you have reduced the amount of inlet air the firebox by partially covering the inlet
it can better burn the wood in it.

I would also check for a blockage as mentioned by your dealer as this would
prevent adequate combustion from occuring because you fo not have the ability to increase the volume of air needed AND by your reducing the air volume entering the combustion chamber allows it to burn with what ever the volume is of the blockage.

The combustion forced draft blower is providing you with the combustion air needed
and you either have an animal in there or a huge creosote blockage that is burning away I think.

Sonofman

I am glad you seem to be finding the problem. I would never have thought it was too much air. 8)
Located due west of Due West.

leonz

Quote from: Sonofman on March 01, 2013, 10:14:06 PM
I am glad you seem to be finding the problem.
I would never have thought it was too much air. 8)

I am glad I was able to walk throught this with you
and I hope that I helped you with it.

I would take off the rear covers to that beast after its burned
out and cool and see what stuck back there in the combustion
chamber that could be blocking the smoke shelf or the flue.

My indoor indoor wood and coal boiler is filled half way full
with firebrick (3 cubic feet of firebrick)
esting on a piece of 12 inch channel iron and it is something
I wish I had done 31 years a go with this low water volume
boiler and I will be doing the same thing to the Harmon boiler
when the time comes to replace this one this year.
This is something that everyone with an OWB should do to
improve the burn and almost eliminate the smoke when
burning or idling.

leonz

Quote from: Sonofman on March 01, 2013, 10:14:06 PM
I am glad you seem to be finding the problem. I would never have thought it was too much air. 8)

Think of it this way;

When Saddam Hussein blew up all those oil wells in Kuwait one of the methods used to blowout the fires was to use explosives to eliminate any oxygen getting to the oil that was being forced out of the ground by
pressure of the pool of oil trapped in the rock below the well.

A group of Romanian oil well firefighters used a different method;
they had a small herd of surplus russian tanks to which they mounted
a surplus Jet engine to the body of the tank.

They drove the tank close to the oil well and then throttled up the jet engine
and when it was at full throttle they pointed it at the base of the oil wells fire
this starved the fire of oxygen and as it cooled the oil coming out of the ground
and it also pushed away any fire that was feeding on the oil at the same time.



I am glad we were able to walk through this issue with your boilers trouble.

sam-tip

I don't think covering the fan inlet is the permanent fix but it will point me in the right direction.  The main issue is I have two much draft from my 20ft of 8" stack.  Too much draft allows too much air through the boiler.  This morning I filled the boiler and loaded with wood.  Anytime I load with wood I get a steam plum from what little moisture is in the wood and it is also a product of combustion (chemistry ?C3H8 + ?O2 = ?H20 + ?CO2 + ?CO).   
I removed the rear cleanout port for the stack to lower the draft from the stack.  This allowed the boiler to run without the assisted air flow from the stack.  I did trial and error with covering the fan and watching the combustion chamber. 25% 50% 75% and 100% open.  Without the rear cover I was able to open the fan to 100% and still run fine.  It also reduced my steam cloud from the boiler.  I liked the reduced steam because allot of people can't tell the difference from steam and opacity.  They see anything and think the world is ending.

I want the height to keep the exhaust above all the buildings.  I think I might need a draft reducer to keep the draft constant with different wind conditions.  The draft control worked good on my corn furnace.   I will measure the draft.  I still have a manometer from the corn furnace.

Doug O
Central Boiler E3200 WiFi
Many many ported chainsaws. 201 to 3120
TM log splitter pro30 6 way head
D&L 1020 swing blade sawmill for slabbing
Timberking 1220

sam-tip

Central Boiler E3200 WiFi
Many many ported chainsaws. 201 to 3120
TM log splitter pro30 6 way head
D&L 1020 swing blade sawmill for slabbing
Timberking 1220

martyinmi

Quote from: leonz on March 02, 2013, 12:08:33 AM

I am glad I was able to walk throught this with you
and I hope that I helped you with it.

Not real sure you were much help there leonz 'ol buddy! A block chimney? And raising the boilers elevation? :o

Sam-tip, I believe you are on the right track. My gasser will smoke once in a while, but it's usually when my wood gets a bit too dry, like less than 15%. That might be something you could check out too.

I've installed a "flap" on my blower that I control with a Love controller and a "J" thermocouple that is in the final pass of my exhaust. I did it to lower my EGT's more than anything, but the by-product ended up being less smoke.

It lowered the btu output of my boiler by about 20%, but my boiler is extreme overkill for my home anyway.

It also improved my efficiency about 5%.
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