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CB with lots of smoke when windy

Started by sam-tip, February 27, 2013, 09:14:56 PM

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sam-tip

My CB 3200 does not burn well when the wind is 20 mph or greater.  I have 5 sections of stack and is way above the garage.  The wind blows between the shop and the house and directed to the garage.  The boiler is behind the garage.  3000 sq ft L shaped garage.  How is the wind effecting the draft?  The picture is before I added two sections and still is smoking when windy.

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clww

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sam-tip

Very dry hard wood.  Oak and walnut dried for over two years.
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thecfarm

For starters,how long have you had this OWB? Have you tried it with just one sections and no cap? Or maybe the cap is causing some problem? Do you have a blower on this unit?
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

sam-tip

Only tried it with 3 and 5 sections of stack.  I lost the rain cap for second half of the first year.  It was blown off during a back draft explosion.  It runs very clean when not windy.  I did have a corn furnace at the same location and it had some kind of pressure auto damper/flapper on the exhaust of the corn furnace.  When windy it would flap/open alot.

It has a small induction fan/blower.
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leonz

Quote from: sam-tip on February 27, 2013, 09:14:56 PM
My CB 3200 does not burn well when the wind is 20 mph or greater.  I have 5 sections of stack and is way above the garage.  The wind blows between the shop and the house and directed to the garage.  The boiler is behind the garage.  3000 sq ft L shaped garage.  How is the wind effecting the draft?  The picture is before I added two sections and still is smoking when windy.

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28038/Central_Boiler_023_small.jpg



As much as I hate those things as they are so poorly designed
a few things come to mind.

How high is the peak of the garage? The chimney should be several feet
above the peak of the garage.

Where is the nearest other building besides the garage and what is its height?.

How small do you split your wood? Unsplit rounds do not burn well by themselves.

Any shelter belt tree line will effect the flow of wind in the area.

If you had a draft explosion the boiler was chasing the unburned
oxygen out of the firebox and then out through the chimney out
of the chimney and the force and pressure of the flame wave
burning and racing out of the chimney was great enough to
blow the chimney cap off the stack. 


Check to be sure the fans mounting flange is sealed properly
and is not leaking by sealing the chimney with a heavy steel pail
when the fire is out and the boiler is cold and then bypass the
fan control to start it up and if there is leak at the flange it
should be evident with soapy water.


It may be entirely that that the combustion fan is too too small
or the fan is bad.

I have heard of this happening on the other boilers in the AS forum.

AsaG

What's the temperature in the reaction chamber when this is happening?  Is it running > 550°F? 

I'm glad to learn I'm not the only one who's managed to blow off a rain cap!  :D

sam-tip

This is the second season for the Boiler.  When smoking the reaction temps stay around 600 to 750.  I just got a bigger blower and will swap it out this weekend. Not much bigger.  It is rated at 145 not 115 cfm.   I also have a spare fan and I figured how to run two fans.  But if one fan is stronger than the other the weaker fan will lose air.   

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Ohiowood

Mine smoke like that a few times, it was always to much ash/coal bed and or the holes plugged. Oxygen deprived.

Sonofman

Sam-tip, I see from the picture the wind appears to be sliding down the roof of the garage and pushing the smoke down. Does it still do this since you added the extra sections to the pipe. If it does, the wind may be pushing air down the pipe, or just hindering the draft enough to slow the combustion when it is on burn. I do not have a gasser, so I am somewhat limited in the help I can give.
Located due west of Due West.

sam-tip

Smoke still does blow down with the extra pipe.  I am wondering if the wind is coming over the wind break and house and pushing down on the stack.  The smoke does not rise.  It drifts down.  The top of the stack is about the same height of the white pine trees and the peak of the house.  30ft total height.  The house is 100ft away and the wind break is about 150ft away from stack.  Then peak of the garage is 16 ft from stack.

It will be interesting in a few years when the pines get even bigger. 


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Sonofman

I'm thinking that might be at least part of the problem. If you could get a cap back on the top, one that is fairly much wider than the pipe, it might help. It will be for certain a quick and cheap thing to try. Other than that, I really have no idea.
Located due west of Due West.

leonz

Quote from: sam-tip on February 28, 2013, 09:19:31 PM
Smoke still does blow down with the extra pipe.  I am wondering if the wind is coming over the wind break and house and pushing down on the stack.  The smoke does not rise.  It drifts down.  The top of the stack is about the same height of the white pine trees and the peak of the house.  30ft total height.  The house is 100ft away and the wind break is about 150ft away from stack.  Then peak of the garage is 16 ft from stack.

It will be interesting in a few years when the pines get even bigger.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I now know more than I did earlier about your problem.

I would strongly suggest you find out how much it would
cost you to have a block chimney tied in to the exhaust
of the OWB.

A short term fix would be to either move or elevate the gasser
by building a tall island of good crushed bank
run gravel and move the gasser to it and add pipe.
as your location is 90% of the problem.


You have no win situation with it now.

beenthere

Leonz
Where are you located? In which state?
Didn't see it in your bio.

Thanks for the info.
Finger Lakes region in NY state.

I don't follow why the need for such a drastic change to the OP's situation. Certainly doesn't seem to be in line with other CB installations that work quite well, from reading about them on this forum.
But then, your suggestions are in line with others that you have posted so do appreciate that you have strong feeling for your way to burn wood. ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

sam-tip

I am in central Iowa.  I had a sheet metal guy tell me to try a wind deflector.  A shield to help block the wind on the cap.  I currently am using the rain cap.  My old corn burner didn't have a bird shield and kept getting birds in the stack pipe.  Scary trying to get a live bird out of the back of a corn burner.  Big birds.  Not sparrows.  I was at a cement plant in Arkansas a few weeks ago and they get turkey vulchers in their stack.  They opened the ID fan to check it and there was a live turkey vulcher inside.   
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clww

An observation of mine has been driving around up in the mountains at the cabin, I see more than a dozen OWBs operating. Lots of smoke from all the ones I see, no matter the length of pipe, the time of day/night,  or location in relation to other structures. I assumed a great deal of smoke was just a normal occurrence.
Many Stihl Saws-16"-60"
"Go Ask The Other Master Chief"
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leonz

Quote from: sam-tip on March 01, 2013, 07:16:54 AM
I am in central Iowa.  I had a sheet metal guy tell me to try a wind deflector.  A shield to help block the wind on the cap.  I currently am using the rain cap.  My old corn burner didn't have a bird shield and kept getting birds in the stack pipe.  Scary trying to get a live bird out of the back of a corn burner.  Big birds.  Not sparrows.  I was at a cement plant in Arkansas a few weeks ago and they get turkey vulchers in their stack.  They opened the ID fan to check it and there was a live turkey vulcher inside.


The vultures will light on the edge of the kilns cement chimney as they see it as a place to rest and the exhaust gasses will knock them out just like it would for your corn burner.

sam-tip

Ok I think I figured something out today.  My dealer kept saying there must be a blockage.  To me that mean not enough air.  Today I installed a second blower to my E3200.  This made the boiler smoke worse.  After 30 minutes of it smoking so bad and low combustion temps I figured I better take the second blow off. Two blowers was to much air.  So then I covered up half the inlet to the stock blower.  Wow.  The smoke was gone and my temps went from 500 - 600 to 1200 - 1310.   I must be getting to much draft with high winds.  I am trying to attach a chart of the change in temps

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leonz

Quote from: sam-tip on March 01, 2013, 08:24:26 PM
Ok I think I figured something out today.  My dealer kept saying there must be a blockage.  To me that mean not enough air.  Today I installed a second blower to my E3200.  This made the boiler smoke worse.  After 30 minutes of it smoking so bad and low combustion temps I figured I better take the second blow off. Two blowers was to much air.  So then I covered up half the inlet to the stock blower.  Wow.  The smoke was gone and my temps went from 500 - 600 to 1200 - 1310.   I must be getting to much draft with high winds.  I am trying to attach a chart of the change in temps

Your high winds have nothing to do with it as it is a sealed combustion chamber with a
forced draft combustion chamber.

With your second blower you have introduced more air into the firebox than it can consume
and created a smoke pot as the air supplied is snuffing out the fire

If it was straight oxygen you would have a rooster tail of fire exiting the stack.


As you have reduced the amount of inlet air the firebox by partially covering the inlet
it can better burn the wood in it.

I would also check for a blockage as mentioned by your dealer as this would
prevent adequate combustion from occuring because you fo not have the ability to increase the volume of air needed AND by your reducing the air volume entering the combustion chamber allows it to burn with what ever the volume is of the blockage.

The combustion forced draft blower is providing you with the combustion air needed
and you either have an animal in there or a huge creosote blockage that is burning away I think.

Sonofman

I am glad you seem to be finding the problem. I would never have thought it was too much air. 8)
Located due west of Due West.

leonz

Quote from: Sonofman on March 01, 2013, 10:14:06 PM
I am glad you seem to be finding the problem.
I would never have thought it was too much air. 8)

I am glad I was able to walk throught this with you
and I hope that I helped you with it.

I would take off the rear covers to that beast after its burned
out and cool and see what stuck back there in the combustion
chamber that could be blocking the smoke shelf or the flue.

My indoor indoor wood and coal boiler is filled half way full
with firebrick (3 cubic feet of firebrick)
esting on a piece of 12 inch channel iron and it is something
I wish I had done 31 years a go with this low water volume
boiler and I will be doing the same thing to the Harmon boiler
when the time comes to replace this one this year.
This is something that everyone with an OWB should do to
improve the burn and almost eliminate the smoke when
burning or idling.

leonz

Quote from: Sonofman on March 01, 2013, 10:14:06 PM
I am glad you seem to be finding the problem. I would never have thought it was too much air. 8)

Think of it this way;

When Saddam Hussein blew up all those oil wells in Kuwait one of the methods used to blowout the fires was to use explosives to eliminate any oxygen getting to the oil that was being forced out of the ground by
pressure of the pool of oil trapped in the rock below the well.

A group of Romanian oil well firefighters used a different method;
they had a small herd of surplus russian tanks to which they mounted
a surplus Jet engine to the body of the tank.

They drove the tank close to the oil well and then throttled up the jet engine
and when it was at full throttle they pointed it at the base of the oil wells fire
this starved the fire of oxygen and as it cooled the oil coming out of the ground
and it also pushed away any fire that was feeding on the oil at the same time.



I am glad we were able to walk through this issue with your boilers trouble.

sam-tip

I don't think covering the fan inlet is the permanent fix but it will point me in the right direction.  The main issue is I have two much draft from my 20ft of 8" stack.  Too much draft allows too much air through the boiler.  This morning I filled the boiler and loaded with wood.  Anytime I load with wood I get a steam plum from what little moisture is in the wood and it is also a product of combustion (chemistry ?C3H8 + ?O2 = ?H20 + ?CO2 + ?CO).   
I removed the rear cleanout port for the stack to lower the draft from the stack.  This allowed the boiler to run without the assisted air flow from the stack.  I did trial and error with covering the fan and watching the combustion chamber. 25% 50% 75% and 100% open.  Without the rear cover I was able to open the fan to 100% and still run fine.  It also reduced my steam cloud from the boiler.  I liked the reduced steam because allot of people can't tell the difference from steam and opacity.  They see anything and think the world is ending.

I want the height to keep the exhaust above all the buildings.  I think I might need a draft reducer to keep the draft constant with different wind conditions.  The draft control worked good on my corn furnace.   I will measure the draft.  I still have a manometer from the corn furnace.

Doug O
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sam-tip

Central Boiler E3200 WiFi
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martyinmi

Quote from: leonz on March 02, 2013, 12:08:33 AM

I am glad I was able to walk throught this with you
and I hope that I helped you with it.

Not real sure you were much help there leonz 'ol buddy! A block chimney? And raising the boilers elevation? :o

Sam-tip, I believe you are on the right track. My gasser will smoke once in a while, but it's usually when my wood gets a bit too dry, like less than 15%. That might be something you could check out too.

I've installed a "flap" on my blower that I control with a Love controller and a "J" thermocouple that is in the final pass of my exhaust. I did it to lower my EGT's more than anything, but the by-product ended up being less smoke.

It lowered the btu output of my boiler by about 20%, but my boiler is extreme overkill for my home anyway.

It also improved my efficiency about 5%.
No God, No Peace
Know God, Know Peace!

AsaG

Quote from: martyinmi on March 02, 2013, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: leonz on March 02, 2013, 12:08:33 AM

I am glad I was able to walk throught this with you
and I hope that I helped you with it.

Not real sure you were much help there leonz 'ol buddy! A block chimney? And raising the boilers elevation? :o

Sam-tip, I believe you are on the right track. My gasser will smoke once in a while, but it's usually when my wood gets a bit too dry, like less than 15%. That might be something you could check out too.

I've installed a "flap" on my blower that I control with a Love controller and a "J" thermocouple that is in the final pass of my exhaust. I did it to lower my EGT's more than anything, but the by-product ended up being less smoke.

It lowered the btu output of my boiler by about 20%, but my boiler is extreme overkill for my home anyway.

It also improved my efficiency about 5%.

To a cure problem much like sam-tip's, I used a damper "flap" from a fan kit for a Classic boiler.  I had enough time to ask about his reaction chamber temps but didn't have a chance to discuss further until now.  At any rate, it took some time to figure out the "sweet spot" setting for windy and cold.  Had thought about making the blower variable speed but never got around to it.  Automating the damper flap is an brilliant option I hadn't really considered.  Are you using a solenoid to move the flap or some sort of small gear-motor?  Looks like a solenoid and spring to return would work okay. 

boilerman101

I'm in my 3rd season with my E2400 and don't think you are on the right track.
Granted I have only 2 four ft extensions on my furnace, but it sits within 10 ft of tall trees on the the back side of it.
The pics you posted show you definately have a down draft going on, pushing emission down but I would think the postive fan draft should not allow this to be a huge effect on how boiler runs. Your 600 degree reaction chamber temps are low. Mine reaches 1,000-1,200 degrees most every cycle. You need 750+ before it even goes into high burn which allows more air to be blown down through the air charge tube into the reaction chamber. When this takes place, my stack turns clear and no smoke. Sounds like you are not getting good gassification. I have found air flow and a coal bed that covers over the air charge tube by about 2-3 inches is crucial for good operation and gives me highest reaction chamber temps. I use the poker rod through coals every time before I load and rub along the left and right side of the air charge tube. Empty reaction chamber when it gets half full. Make sure the thermocouple temp probe is fully extended...about 2 inches. I have pushed mine up the feeder tube before with only about 1/4 inch extruding. Did not burn right until I found it. Confirm exchange tubes and chimney tee area are clear. I don't use a spark arrestor as they plug up. Confirm your primary intake tube and elbow are not obstructed with creosote. I can't imagine any need to play with intake covers or fan sizes. I'm sure CB has put hours of test stand time with furnace hooked up to electronic metering devices to come up with fan size and air distribution. If your not getting reaction chamber temps over 750 and going into high burn, one of the items I've listed has to be the problem, from my experience. Good luck and hope this helps.

martyinmi

Quote from: AsaG on March 02, 2013, 04:50:42 PM

To a cure problem much like sam-tip's, I used a damper "flap" from a fan kit for a Classic boiler.  I had enough time to ask about his reaction chamber temps but didn't have a chance to discuss further until now.  At any rate, it took some time to figure out the "sweet spot" setting for windy and cold.  Had thought about making the blower variable speed but never got around to it.  Automating the damper flap is an brilliant option I hadn't really considered.  Are you using a solenoid to move the flap or some sort of small gear-motor?  Looks like a solenoid and spring to return would work okay.

I am using a solenoid(Graingers- for a washing machine 5-10 lb pull I think) to pull it closed when my EGT's reach 290 degrees, and a spring keeps it in it's normally open position the rest of the time. I have a 15 degree differential programmed into the controller, so when the EGT's get back down to 275 degrees, power is cut to the solenoid and it allows the flap to open and the EGT's will slowly rise again.
The reason I installed the probe and controller was to simply keep EGT's in check. My temps averaged around 290-320* after a cleaning, but they would sometimes climb up as high as plus 450* if I'd go a few weeks without cleaning. That just seemed to be a huge heat loss to me.
One of the other sites that I'm a member of has a few hvac guys that maintain that for every 25* one lowers his EGT's, you gain roughly 1% in added efficiency.
An added bonus to the additions ended up being much less "huffing"(or backdraft if you prefer). In fact I've only seen it "huff" once or twice since the install.
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sam-tip

Just checked the moisture content of the curent pallet of wood.  I was getting 9 to 15% moisture.  It was very dry last summer with lots of sun.  Then stored inside the barn before the rains came.
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Ohiowood


AsaG

Quote from: martyinmi on March 02, 2013, 08:04:36 PM

I am using a solenoid(Graingers- for a washing machine 5-10 lb pull I think) to pull it closed when my EGT's reach 290 degrees, and a spring keeps it in it's normally open position the rest of the time. I have a 15 degree differential programmed into the controller, so when the EGT's get back down to 275 degrees, power is cut to the solenoid and it allows the flap to open and the EGT's will slowly rise again.
The reason I installed the probe and controller was to simply keep EGT's in check. My temps averaged around 290-320* after a cleaning, but they would sometimes climb up as high as plus 450* if I'd go a few weeks without cleaning. That just seemed to be a huge heat loss to me.
One of the other sites that I'm a member of has a few hvac guys that maintain that for every 25* one lowers his EGT's, you gain roughly 1% in added efficiency.
An added bonus to the additions ended up being much less "huffing"(or backdraft if you prefer). In fact I've only seen it "huff" once or twice since the install.

Interesting and thanks for the thorough writeup. 

Somewhere around here, left over from a previous data gathering attempt, I have a clean out cap with a thermocouple installed in it.  I'll monitor and plot my EGT versus reaction chamber temps to see what is going on.  When I noticed my 2400 smoking like the picture sam-tip posted, it was very windy and I was heating the shop floor.  The boiler had a good heating load for around six hours.  What caught my attention was the rhythmical sound of the "high burn" or "stage 3" solenoid coming on and dropping out.  The reaction chamber temp was vacillating between a low of ~740 and a high of ~760 every 45 seconds.  This went on for nearly an hour before I began to investigate.  By pure accident, my handkerchief fell out of my shirt pocket and the fan sucked it onto the intake screen; blocking about 1/3 of it.  Within a few seconds the stack went completely clear and the reaction chamber temp shot up to 1000+ degrees.  Like what sam-tip reports, my wood is also very dry, usually <18%.  Currently, the "flap" is open fully, the local temp is 22°F, the wind is out of the SSE at 12-15 mph, the reaction chamber is running a solid 1100+ and not a hint of smoke anywhere.  Since I have no neighbors within two miles, the bit of smoking isn't a huge deal but I like to get all of the usable heat possible out of each load.  I also like to know why things do what they do and have a little "mad scientist" thing going.  :P Drives the better half completely up the wall!  :D

boilerman101

Asa, I have seen my E2400 drop in and out of high burn as well running from 680 - 800, teetering on both sides of 750. CB tech told me this happens when furnace combustion can't handle the extra "high burn" air injected when reaction chamber goes over 750 and the 3rd solenoid opens, throwing more air into the air charge tube and down into the reaction chamber. The combustion rate is not strong enough to handle that extra air, so it kind of  floods it out like a carborator. I have seen it happen the first couple of burn cycles after a loading...if my coal bed is not adaquet....if coal bed is too deep...or if I am burning higher moisture content wood. Remember the thermocouple does not sit in the flame but near reaction chamber door, under heat exchangers. 90% of my burn cycles reach 1,000-1,200 degree reaction chamber temps....When your hankerchief dropped over the fan, it reduced the air and quit "air flooding" the chamber out. I still say the Eclassics are all about correct coal bed depth and airflow in, down and out. When done right, you get 1,000+ degree reaction chamber temps and a clear burning stack. At least that is my experience over the last 3 years.

martyinmi

Quote from: sam-tip on March 02, 2013, 08:14:15 PM
Just checked the moisture content of the curent pallet of wood.  I was getting 9 to 15% moisture.  It was very dry last summer with lots of sun.  Then stored inside the barn before the rains came.
Ideal moisture content for a gasser is somewhere between 16% and 24%, and I believe you'll find that yours will function the best at around 18-19%. Because of my gasser's inherent design,it seems to like prefer wood with a slightly higher mc(at 20% 0r so). If yours is less than 15%, it is definitely part of the problem. The moisture in the wood is what your boiler relies on to control how much fuel is released. Too much fuel released results in a "rich condition", similar to running your chainsaw with the choke partially on.

Keep us all posted. This is an interesting thread.

As an experiment, try randomly mixing one fill at a about 1/3rd wet wood with 2/3rds dry wood ratio and see what happens.
No God, No Peace
Know God, Know Peace!

superwd6

10 minutes to figure out how to load a photo >:(. Anyway, hope this helps. It's the chimney cover that came with my 2300 ,cut hole and insert oil furnace draft regulator. Working great for 9 months now after installing it during pool season last year. I could'nt stand seeing all that heat go up yhe chimney while on High fire :D

beenthere

super
You have a couple three of them in your gallery. Next step... ;D
Go back to your post and click on "modify".
Now just click on the blue highlighted line below this window and go to your pic, then when it enlarges SCROLL down to where you see how to load it.  The trick is to scroll down on that page.
Click on "Preview" to see what you have before clicking on "Post".
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

superwd6

 

  It's on an album in here somewhere if anybody else can find it >:( >:( >:( smiley_chop smiley_chop walking away before the axe hits this computer ??? Yay, Thanks for the help beenthere.;D My 2300 is an wood only model that just opens both solenoids @ the same time (no fire star control) so chimney draft makes more difference. I get way less pulsating (rumble and shaking ) with this mod. I use no cap to let smoke go staight up and rain water always drains out of the stove not in. Central boiler must've made it this way

Logging logginglogging

I dont understand how that helps? I have never had shaking and rumbling from my 2300? what was causeing that?

doctorb

My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

superwd6

I do think the smoke is caused by the usual problems but Don't tell me anything with a chimney is balanced flue!You're thinking of a gas furnace where it's air intake is in the same Pressure zone as it's exhaust (the same wall or roof). The chimney high, and blower on the ground WILL at times have more draft than the rating plate on my boiler.   Mine states -.01 to -.03 draft "unsafe to operate higher than -.05", to much draft can potentially pull the flame off, if the rest of the furnace isn't set right to begin with.Ever see an oil furnace? they have fan blowers just like the E-Classic .To much draft can creat burning problems as it pulls air into the fan creating high stack temps and poor efficiency. If you're sure it's a downdraft all you have to do is open the chimney cleanout slowly while it's smoking and see if you get a face full. The firestar controller dictates it will work different from my wood only model as I think solenoids can operate individually

superwd6

Quote from: Logging logginglogging on March 08, 2013, 10:01:25 AM
I dont understand how that helps? I have never had shaking and rumbling from my 2300? what was causeing that?
When heating pool in the summer with dry spruse it can rumble as it starves for air with to big of fire.The draft reg seems to make the boiler more consistant. Mine , not yours. Make youre own choices

sam-tip

Quote from: superwd6 on March 07, 2013, 08:28:49 PM


  It's on an album in here somewhere if anybody else can find it >:( >:( >:( smiley_chop smiley_chop walking away before the axe hits this computer ??? Yay, Thanks for the help beenthere.;D My 2300 is an wood only model that just opens both solenoids @ the same time (no fire star control) so chimney draft makes more difference. I get way less pulsating (rumble and shaking ) with this mod. I use no cap to let smoke go staight up and rain water always drains out of the stove not in. Central boiler must've made it this way


Just installed my draft control yesterday.  Not very windy yet.  CB says I should remove my rain cap.  But we just got soaked with rain today.  I think the winds will be 35 mph tomorrow.
Central Boiler E3200 WiFi
Many many ported chainsaws. 201 to 3120
TM log splitter pro30 6 way head
D&L 1020 swing blade sawmill for slabbing
Timberking 1220

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