Building a pit saw demo...input welcomed!

[Rooster]

A friend and I are working on plans to build a pit saw demonstration for our local annual "Buckskinners Rendezvous".  We want to build a timber-framed scaffold system that we can pin together with steel drift pins and then disassemble at the end of the weekend and haul it home.

I did a search on-line and found this and many other videos, but I still want to pick the brains of the FF members.  I also need to find a working if not fixable pit saw for the demo..even if I can only borrow one.

Has anyone done anything like this?...any advice or direction I should take?  I do like the frame set up in this video.

Thanks in advance!

Rooster...and his friend Steve


http://youtu.be/M_TWadABkpk

[Rooster]

Here's a link:
http://youtu.be/rvKA9xslM7c

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Rooster,

http://www.plimoth.org/

They have some great short videos and so does Colonial Williamsburg Historical Sit, I believe.  I have been both "tiller," and "pit-man" (not always fun...where a big hat  :D ;))  There are several designs for above ground "milling trellises."  I'm sure yours will be great!! Can't wait to see video/pictures.

Regards,

jay

[Jeff]

We have an old photo hanging in the house of the real thing happening at a logging camp.  Probably very rudimentary compared to what you want to do.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Jeff,

For a "Buckskinners Rendezvous" that would be perfect!  Great photo.  I've seen several "milling trellis," like it.

[Jeff]

Rooster, I emailed you a larger version of the photo I posted in case you wanted to look closer at it.

[Cedarman]

My advice is don't be the guy in the pit. ;D

[Jay C. White Cloud]

If I have my big hat the pit is the place to be...that tiller's shoulders are on fire and with my old back...just can't do it anymore for very long...

[Rooster]

Tiller?   definition..to steer?

Thanks for the photo Jeff!

Rooster

[Jeff]

I have a frame saw up on the wall, but one of the things I do not have, and I've looked all over, is a pitsaw as pictured. I believe the frame pitsaw I have may be Quaker.



 

[beenthere]

the pit is the place to be...that tiller's shoulders are on fire

He just needs to bring the saw back up, as the cutting is on the down stroke and pulled by the guy below. The 'tiller' is the one who keeps the saw on line on the down (cutting) stroke. As I understand it.
So if the saw blade isn't too heavy, topside might be the easier of the two choices.

[Rooster]

Video off of Jay's posted link:http://blogs.plimoth.org/rivenword/?cat=69

http://youtu.be/XOp9IbqPT3k

[Tom L]

I would like to do that, and then only if I am the wedge man on the right   :D

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Sawyers work best when they share a similar mental and physical aptitude for the work–their pace, the saw’s angle, their relative height to one another, and a consistency of stroke. If the pit-man is an olympic distance runner and the tiller needs a smoke, they may be somewhat out-of-sync. If the tiller has T-Rex arms and cannot bring the majority of the saw’s teeth through the kerf leaving the pit-man without a full extension, it may lead to early-onset exhaustion -

See more at: http://blogs.plimoth.org/rivenword/?tag=pitsawing#sthash.VmhPueEL.dpuf


My friend Rick said it best above...

There are text that have miss labeled these two positions...

The Tiller is the person on top and does most of the guiding and they need to be in shape, the pit just pulls with gravity, (and keeps sawdust out of their eyes.)  Having spent many hours at both, I would rather be in the pit most of the time, which isn't fair as it is the easier of the two post...other than the wedger.

Jeff,

That saw is sweet!!!  I like frame saws better than whips, IMO.  They seem to cut better, but I'm 6'3" with boots and I can't always find them big enough for full extension.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

P.S.

...if you want to punish your Tiller, rest your arms on the up stroke.  They not only have to pull the saw bake up through the cut, but the wieght of your arms as well.  It will take about four strokes before a wedge comes flying your way... :D :D :D

[mesquite buckeye]

Does anybody still make the saws????

[Jay C. White Cloud]

In Japan and Asia, yes.  I'd have to look to see if any smiths are still making cross cuts of any quality.  They can make a whip out of the same material, I did it by just filling the teeth and reshaping a cross cut.  We made a descent frame saw out of thinker band mill blade, wasn't great but it worked.  I'm sure if we all started looking we would fined someone.  There are many talented you Smiths our there.

[Axe Handle Hound]

Roy Underhill has a good explanation of pit sawing and how it works in one of his Woodwright books.  I'd have to look through them to see which one it is, but if I remember right he talk about the roles of the various sawing positions and some of the misconceptions of the process.  In regards to the saw itself, I've often wondered if a guy could refile/set an ice saw to work as a pit saw.  I've never seen them side by side so I can't really say if the tooth geometry is similar enough, but I suspect they can't be too different. I have seen quite a few ice saws around the state.  Just an idea.

In regards to resting your wrists on the saw...my grandfather said he used to try a similar move as a kid when his dad would make him work one end of the 2 man crosscut.  His dad would put up with about 2 strokes of that and then yell, "Quit Riding the Saw!" in a voice that made my grandfather's arms and shoulders feel a whole lot less tired. 

[Rooster]

Like "riding" an ice saw...

Der!

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

PIT SAW
Pit saws were used for centuries for cutting lumber from logs.  Even in the 20th Century, some remote, underdeveloped countries used this type of saw.

In its simplest form, there was a pit about 6 feet deep that was about three feet wide and a little shorter than the log's lengths.  The log was rolled over the pit with several short support timbers across the pit holding the log.  One man stood on top of the log and the other stood in the pit.  Sawing started at one end of the log and proceeded lengthwise until a support was reached.  The log was then maneuvered endwise so that there was again clearance for sawing.  With a raked saw, the cut was made on the down stroke; that is, the pit sawyer did all the work and the top sawyer merely pulled the saw up into position for the next cut.  A frame saw was also used which allowed both workers to power the saw.

As a modification, sometimes the same arrangement was accomplished by building a heavy, elevated framework.  Oftentimes, the frame was on the side of a hill so logs could be easily moved or rolled into position without lifting.

[Dave Shepard]

The curved pine and larch braces in my avatar were pit sawn during the TFG Geometric design workshop in '09. I had a go at pit man, really hard on the shoulders. I believe you can still get pit saws from Germany. We used staging to make our "pit". :D

[bandmiller2]

Where do you think the expression "the pits" came from.Probibly for demo purposes any two man saw could be fitted with "T" handles. Frank C.

[Jeff]

Using a crosscut for a ripsaw would not be much of a demo. Lousy in fact.

By golly Gene,  it looks like you were paying attention in class.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Some years ago I worked with Colonial Williamsburg on their windmill rebuilding (but they refused to put covers over the legs, so continual maintenance is the result, even though European mills did and do have covers) and also with their pit saw.  The pit saw was for show and not for serious milling...surprised?

[DanG]

I'm sure that configurations of this type mill varied considerably for any number of reasons.  For instance, at my place the pit man would be treading water most of the time if it were a six foot pit.  That's why we refer to a basement as an indoor swimming pool. :D  I wouldn't doubt that there were many hybrid setups involving a shallow hole and a low platform as a compromise.