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Fuel with ethanol

Started by millstead, February 26, 2013, 12:49:04 PM

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millstead

I was taking some blades to get sharpened and I stopped at a gas station to get some fuel and they have 89 octane fuel without ethanol price is 4.13 a gallon so I got ten gallons for the mill  I have heard that the ethanol is bad for small engines. Any body else running fuel without ethanol

wetdog

Yes, the ethanol is like a magnet for water. Water=rust, rust=new carb

clww

Ethanol-free fuel is ALL I run in the small engines. I avoid ethanol like a plague! >:(
Many Stihl Saws-16"-60"
"Go Ask The Other Master Chief"
18-Wheeler Driver

Ianab

I think the main issue is storage of the Ethanol fuel. Like was said, it absorbs water, and the ethanol may evaporate or chemically react with things. (rubber and aluminium)

Small engines tend to often sit for months without being used and who knows what chemical reactions are going on in the carburettor during that time?

Paying a couple of dollars more for a can of non-ethanol does sound like cheap insurance.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Bibbyman

YES!  No ethanol in small engines.  We've lost two engines and having had major repairs to several more before I realized the problem.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Tee

This link is a web site that keeps up with ethanol free stations. Look on the page for state abbreviations and click your state. Seems to be fairly accurate from what I've used it.
Hope it helps some of you,
                Tee

http://pure-gas.org/

beenthere

I can get fuel without ethanol at about 10 - 12 cents a gallon more, and it is all I buy for car and for my gas engines and 2 cycle mix.  Feel fortunate that I can get it at all. Car (SUV) gets 2 mpg more than fuel with ethanol, so it is cheaper to spend the higher amount per gallon.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

millstead

I. Put. The ethanol free fuel in my car and the computer screen in the car says average 32 mpg and with the fuel from the gas station with ethanol I'm getting 27 mpg but the ethanol also is .23 cents a gallon more

Kingcha

Not sure I can get ethanol free gas around here easily.   One of the reasons I am going the diesel route when I get my mill.
a Wood-mizer LT15 10hp Electric, 45hp Kioti tractor, electric smoker, wood-fired brick oven & yes a custom built Solar Kiln

beenthere

millstead
So with an increase of 18% in mpg, you could afford to pay about 70 cents a gallon more for non-ethanol fuel and would break even?  or three times more than what the extra is now. Ethanol just doesn't pay, IMO.

PS: think you meant to say "but the non-ethanol also is 23 cents a gallon more". ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Den Socling

I think all the pumps around here say "may contain ethanol". I checked Tee's link and there are no ethanol free stations listed around here. I wonder if a stabilizer helps with the water situation?

millstead

Yeah sorry I meant to say ethanol free fuel is 23 cents more per gallon

CalebL

It's the same price here for Regular without ethanol.  If you can't find someone selling ethanol free gas, you can always buy the Mid or Premium fuel.  Neither should have ethanol. 
2005 LT40 HDD34
2000 Cat 226 Skid Loader

m wood

Den socling, I was wondering about that too.  Like a Seafoam or something?  Thanks Tee, checked your link and found a ethenol free station out on the reservation!  15 miles from home and the prices tend to be about .20 cheaper out there anyway.
I am Mark
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Tee

Your welcome M Wood. Hopefully your station info is correct.

That brand, Sta-bil, has a product specially formulated for ethanol. Don't know anything about it's effectiveness though.

I do know around here, *all* grades contain ethanol at the average station.

hamish

Thanks to the United States glorious EPA, ethanol is here to stay.

For outdoor power equipment and small engines, those made in the past 10-15 years are rated and approved for ethanol based fuels.

Most problems arise on older units, whose components are not compatible with ethanol.

On all units the issue as mentioned is storage.  Ethanol absorbs water, thus vented fuel systems and cans will absorb water.

Storage practices of the fuel by the individual amounts to majority of failures
in OPE.
Norwood ML26, Jonsered 2152, Husqvarna 353, 346,555,372,576

dgdrls

My chainsaws and all two cycle stuff gets VP Small Engine Fuel SEF.
Its 94 octane and I get it through a friend by the 5 gallon can
I do my own premix.

DGDrls



http://www.vp-sef.com/

yellowrosefarm

Quote from: hamish on February 26, 2013, 05:48:29 PM
Thanks to the United States glorious EPA, ethanol is here to stay.

For outdoor power equipment and small engines, those made in the past 10-15 years are rated and approved for ethanol based fuels.

Storage practices of the fuel by the individual amounts to majority of failures
in OPE.

Sorry, that's just not true.  I work on small engines for a living and it doesn't matter if it was made a month ago. Just ask any Stihl tech representative about primer bulbs and gas caps. Ethanol eats carbureted fuel system components. It doesn't matter how you store it, it's the Ethanol that is bad. You can extend the shelf life of the gasoline by adding Sta-Bil or the like but the Ethanol is still there. I've seen yellow Tygon fuel line go from flexible to breaking like a matchstick in 3 months. Old stuff can not tolerate it at all. The black fuel lines used on saws, trimmers, etc will completely dissolve in Ethanol mix gas. I've seen it. Do not run ethanol in any carbed engines if you can help it.


thecfarm

Closet place is a small airport about 45 minutes from me. I use the highest grade I can for all of my small motors. I should not say anything,but have no problems with the e stuff. But my gas does get used up fast. The mill and the tiller are the ones used the least.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

red oaks lumber

i have not had any problems running ethenol. run it in everything.sthil brusher, sthil chainsaws, sthil leafblower, johndeere mower, craftsman rototiller, arctic cat snowmobiles, ect. maybe it depends on the region of the country.
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Berggie

We have been running ethanol gas in everything we own in Minnesota for years without any trouble except reduced mileage.
Home built/modified Linn 1900, Dolmar saw, farmall H with loader. Log rite.

Al_Smith

Well it's not so simple .The closest of that "pure gas" business is to me is Lake Erie and that's 90 miles from here .That or aviation gas, Cam II or rocket fuel (really souped up race gas )

So you just get good at replacing seals ,rebuilding carbs and replacing fuel lines .It's that or fire the EPA .You'd stand a better chance of walking on water .

Well it made for high priced corn, thinned down gasoline and high priced beef steak that here of late is tough enough you could use it for shoe soles .Great plan !

Tronvik

Ethanol and carburetors don't mix well, my 88 lt40hd has the original Nikki carb. and I think I could take the top off and clean the gel out before the band stopped  ;).  Corn liquor is for drinking not making sawdust :).
1984 lt30, john deere 750

hamish

Quote from: yellowrosefarm on February 26, 2013, 08:28:30 PM
Quote from: hamish on February 26, 2013, 05:48:29 PM
Thanks to the United States glorious EPA, ethanol is here to stay.

For outdoor power equipment and small engines, those made in the past 10-15 years are rated and approved for ethanol based fuels.

Storage practices of the fuel by the individual amounts to majority of failures
in OPE.

Sorry, that's just not true.  I work on small engines for a living and it doesn't matter if it was made a month ago. Just ask any Stihl tech representative about primer bulbs and gas caps. Ethanol eats carbureted fuel system components. It doesn't matter how you store it, it's the Ethanol that is bad. You can extend the shelf life of the gasoline by adding Sta-Bil or the like but the Ethanol is still there. I've seen yellow Tygon fuel line go from flexible to breaking like a matchstick in 3 months. Old stuff can not tolerate it at all. The black fuel lines used on saws, trimmers, etc will completely dissolve in Ethanol mix gas. I've seen it. Do not run ethanol in any carbed engines if you can help it.

Well I just asked myself as a Stihl Master Tech, Husqvarna Gold Tech, certified Honda, Kohler, and Briggs tech.
Once again rated components/parts are not as much of an issue (FYI Tygon is not rated for E10).  Most components on OPE since at least mid 2000's have been rated for E-10.

How one stores Ethanol fuels is very important.  Alcohol is what is deteriating/eating old fuel system parts, yes a pain, but fixable and manageable.

Poor storage of Ethanol add water to the equation.......which leads to destroying 2-strokes and messing with 4-strokes, to keep things simple.

To store Ethanol based fuels, buy it more often in smaller quantities, store it in non-vented containers, try to limit temperature fluctuations.

Up here in Canada, we have to put on the pumps, may contain up to x % ethanol, the only way to know is to actually test each tank you purchase.
There are many fuel re-sellers, but very few refiners. All of our fuel in North America comes from a handful of refineries.  Your re-sellers are just mis-informing you by saying its ethanol free.
Norwood ML26, Jonsered 2152, Husqvarna 353, 346,555,372,576

beenthere

And... I understand that the ethanol is added to the gasoline near the end (or close to delivery to the station) of the supply line. So, I think storage before delivery is not an issue, at least I assume that.

But not legal to advertise one thing and sell another. Then that brings in "trust" of those handling the fuel, which can lead to more concern. :)

A said, I'm happy to get the non-ethanol. Hope it lasts.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

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