advice for my woodlot

[pinegrove]

I Bought60 acres this past summer. On it is 15 acres of pine trees, 5 of them scotch, and the rest white pine. The scotch has already died and I am cutting them down now. My question involves the white pine. They probably average 12 inches at the trunk. They are planted too close and need to be thinned.  Would it make any sense for me to get a mill and mill lumber from the trees I thin, or is a 12 inch tree even worth milling?

[beenthere]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.
What state are you in? Cutting down now, and doing what with the logs?

Any idea the age of the stand? Ring count of a stump will help get that. What is the spacing ?

A 12" tree might be pretty marginal for justifying a mill. A labor of love if anything. Do you have a need for pine lumber?

[dboyt]

Pinegrove, welcome to Forestry Forum.  When measuring diameter, we typically use diameter breast height-- about 4-1/2' above the ground, since any flair at the base just gets cut off anyway.  Even 10" dbh is usable, if you have use for the lumber.  It won't be a money maker for you, though.  Beenthere is right about that.  You've already got a chain saw, so why not get a chain saw mill and see how it goes? Of course, pretty soon, you'll need a bigger chain saw, longer bar, etc.  That's how I started out.  Now I'm on my third band saw mill.

[pinegrove]

 rows are about 7 feet apart and probably 3 feet between trees. No more than 4. Best I can tell they are about 22. That's what I have counted for rings and the previous owner said they were planted around 1990. I do have use for the lumber. We are wanting to build a cabin for my other half father and I want to build a machine shed for tractor and the skid loader and the ........ Right now I'm just curing the scotch into poles. They are tiny and I don't know what I am gonna do with them. Might make a frames for the hogs. Oh and I am in Missouri

[mesquite buckeye]

Way too crowded. Good opportunity to thin and prune up what you keep. Better to keep the best, tallest, straightest ones as you go through the stand. I'd think removing 2/3 of them wouldn't hurt anything. Maybe take out 1/3 now, another 1/3 in a few years. Start by taking out the worst 1/3, as that might be easier than picking the best ones. You will gain experience with the first attempt and will be able to better judge the effects in a few years. The trees you leave will grow faster when they get some room.....

If you  prune the very best trees the first time through, you will get more clear lumber at the end..... 8) 8) 8)

[pinegrove]

I don't have a clue why they were planted so close.  I looked at the Norwood chainsaw mill and thought it was neat as.... But I know me, I won't want my saw tied up so I'll buy a thousand dollar saw to go with the thousand dollar base. Plus with the trees being so small I figured I would be best off with the thin kerf of a bandmill

[Sprucegum]

Yep, you need a mill alright, there is lots of construction lumber in 12" logs. I have milled logs as small as 6" DBH - yield one 2x4 and some firewood  ;)  ;D

[beenthere]

I don't have a clue why they were planted so close.

Likely planted using a tree planting machine with a rider dropping the seedlings in the slit opened up by the coulters. Tractor driver was going slow and the rider not able to judge distance so just drops in trees. Have had it happen many times.
As well, maybe didn't expect all of them to grow, or that in a short time someone would thin them out and never got around to doing it - until now. ;)

[Ianab]

It's quite normal to plant WAY more trees than the final crop.

It suppress weeds.
It encourages the trees to grow with a better form. The canopy closes over quickly, so the trees grow upwards and shed their lower branches earlier.
Some trees die, grow multiple leaders, lean and grow into bananas, get eaten by wildlife etc.

Once the canopy is closed over and the trees growing nicely the excess trees can be thinned, removing the poor ones first.

Problem is that if the excess trees are left too long you affect the growth of all the trees, including your crop trees. You also end up with tall spindly trees that are prone to being blown over when the excess tress are removed. Whether that's the case here is hard to say. Maybe they will handle being thinned, maybe the next storm will knock the remaining trees down?

But I agrees that a small band mill would be the way to go.  Most of the mill manufacturers make a small manual mill with a ~10hp engine that will handle those smaller logs just fine.  It's not high value wood, but if you want to harvest it and build a shed or a cabin they will get the job done. You will learn a lot, keep fit, be working outdoors etc. If you look at any other "hobby" it's can easily cost you $3-4,000 for basic equipment. Look at a small sawmill the same way as a good set of gold clubs and it's not hard to justify.

Ian

[mesquite buckeye]

It's quite normal to plant WAY more trees than the final crop.

Ian

That is how nature does it, but its labor costs and seed costs are fairly low.

In my case, we planted 8 X 8', mostly hardwoods, got from 8 X 8 up to 50 X 50 survival with drought. We found the weeds supressed the timber, not the other way around. Where the weeds didn't slow down the trees, the deer did. 15 seasons later the trees are finally seriously  beating both of them. We are and will be pruning for good form. Works just as well as being crowded, but the trees in full sun grow a lot more mass more rapidly.....

Of course a lot more work, but we aren't paying for it, it is recreation and excercise. Sounds better than hard work, doesn't it?

[pinegrove]

I wanted to thank you all for your input. I didn't really know what to do with them. Id hate to thin them and then lose the rest, but I know if I don't thin them I will have nothing. What would be a good final spacing to go for?  Something I thought about is planting some seedlings into spots that I thinned trees out of. Is that foolish? My thought was as long as sun is getting in it just as well be growing something. Does it do any good to fertilizer tees?

[mesquite buckeye]

If you thin them little by little, you will be way less likely to have major blowdowns. If the trees are really floppy, ice storms can be worse.

You can just keep periodically thinning until you end up with not so many really big trees. Then you start over again if you live long enough.... or your grandkids start over.. ;D

[mesquite buckeye]

When the tops start to touch, they are getting too close. Always check the canopy, that's the wood production factory.

[pinegrove]

I hope I could get something out of newly planted trees. I'll definitely be doing some thinning and see what happens. I want to get the dead trees cleared and replanted. Thanks again

[thecfarm]

Paper company land on top of the hill, They thinned and we had a bad wind storm. some fell over. Yes,it was sad,but can not predict the weather. Just do what you feel is right and hope for the best.  :D

[WDH]

Don't plant any trees in the canopy holes where the thinned trees were removed.  They will not thrive.  Too much root competition from the remaining trees, and you will waste your time and money. 

Can you post a pic?  We can help you with the thinning prescription, but need more info.

[dboyt]

Are they the hybrid loblolly that a lot of people are planting around here?  You're welcome to come play on my Norwood sawmill, if you want to see how it works.  I'm about 60 miles west of Springfield.  Other than eastern red cedar, I cut mostly hardwoods.

[pinegrove]

I will try to get a pic posted. Dboyt, I couldn't be much farther from you.I'm up in northeast Missouri. North of Hannibal. I doubt they are the hybrid pines, the dieing one have rough bark with orange underneath. The ones that are living have slightly rough bark for the bottom 3 or 4 feet and smooth to the top.

[Clark]

In your position I would think having a mobile sawmill come in and cut your logs would be the way to go.  It would be far cheaper for you, you'd get the lumber you want and you could see a small mill in action before you buy one.  I'm sure there would be plenty of time to pick the operator's brain about owning a mill and what goes into it. 

Based on your spacing you definitely need to thin.  Beyond that it is difficult to give much advice because of the different variables.  Since it has been mentioned I would say that you need to thin in steps, you can't thin to the "final" spacing right now or the stand will very likely tip over.  So you could thin it the heaviest this first time, wait five to ten years then thin again and then maybe ten years later.  How often you thin depends on the species and site.  "Final" spacing is a bit of a misnomer unless you have a very specific plan on when you want to harvest the stand.  With white pine you can keep them around for over a hundred years so it is difficult to say what the "final" spacing will be.

Clark

[mesquite buckeye]

If pinegrove's site is any good at all, he will probably get at least double the annual growth you get in N MN.... ??? :