Advice on buying tops for firewood

Timbercrk1 · February 23, 2013, 04:23:39 PM

Hey Everyone.
How do you guys go about buying tops? How do you figure out pricing for buying them? Is there a place I can find what fair market value here is in western, NY I have two small tracts in mind right now that I am looking at getting them by this time next year. Thanks! :P

SwampDonkey · February 23, 2013, 05:00:40 PM

What becomes of the but log, and second, third cut? Who gets those? Now, if your a logger, my experience is it's a package deal. So much/ton for firewood or pulp quality, so much for logs. If your thinking of doing this as a favor to clean up someone's land after someone took off the cream, then why pay for low value wood to beautify someones ground while paying him to do it? Something doesn't add up. I assume you need equipment to gather and process. Is this a hobby time, weekend leisure thing? Or have you been convinced to work for nothing and pay on top.

Need more information. I'm not following the situation.

Pete and Jesse · February 23, 2013, 06:18:32 PM

After the last cut on my property I had people contact me to cut the tops. They all wanted to do it on shares. The last offer was for every four cord cut they would keep three and give me one. I have seen some offers of 50/50.

SwampDonkey · February 23, 2013, 07:05:50 PM

Do you scale their cords? I've not heard of this method of firewood collecting. But on our public lands we can have firewood permits which allows you to cut wood and pay next to nothing for it. Many of the licensed mills (meaning crown license for harvest volume) either process firewood logs as a side line through a harvest contractor or sell volume to processors.

Timbercrk1 · February 23, 2013, 07:35:29 PM

Around my area most logging companies leave the tops. Reason for wanting them is Firewood for profit and my own home use. I have a decent sized landscape company and looking for more work in the winter on a small scale. I own most of the equipment I would need already. 2 people have approached me asking if I would like the tops after there land is logged this year but I know one person would like some kind of money for them since they know I will be turning around and making profit on firewood. I am just trying to figure out how much I should pay for them and if its worth it for me to get into this or not. Trying to find info on what is fair for the land owner and myself. Nothing will be done til next fall and winter so I have plenty of time to make a decision. Thanks

SwampDonkey · February 23, 2013, 07:46:49 PM

You have to figure that the wood is more dispersed than taking the whole tree for the wood. I can see a landowner wanting to clean up his land. But where I live, tradition is that nothing is wasted at the time of harvest. Need every morsel to survive. I understand their are limited markets in different areas. But if the landowner wants to sell firewood, he should have sold it as part of the deal on the logging. If it wasn't worth it when it was logged, it has no salable value when someone else has to gleam over the leavings and trashy brush. ;)

PAFaller · February 23, 2013, 08:04:00 PM

Im with swampdonkey on this one, its not really a money making proposition. You'll have a couple hours worth of labor into every cord if it stops at that. How are you going to get these tops out of the woods or get at them? When I cut a job I routinely work my way in and run over stumps in the process so you wont be driving down my roads with your pickup or one ton dump. That means a tractor, skid steer etc. You have to haul it to the site, get it into the woods, trim up the tops, haul them out, and then finally cut split and load it. We also take the nicest sticks of the top to sell as log length firewood by the triaxle load. You blow a 150 dollar hydraulic hose when you catch it in the brush and you are doing up 2 cords for free. Unless firewood in your area brings crazy big money Id steer clear. Youd have more money tied up buying log length delivered to your yard for sure, but a lot less headaches. I have seen people offer to cut cord for cord, Im looking for someone like that. Id love to have a guy follow behind me cutting wood and leave me a cord for every one he cuts. If he did 200 cord and gave me 100 I could sell it pretty easy and cheap and still make money, but those people soon realize what they are talking about doesnt add up. Id seriously consider your options before investing a lot of money into chasing low grade tops for firewood. If you pencil out the cost involved in making it and the time to get it out of the woods you will find it probably ends up being busy work that returns little profit for time invested.

Timbercrk1 · February 23, 2013, 11:05:11 PM

How about if I can get the tops for free? Sounds like this would be the only way to go if any. Firewood in my area is $75-$100 on average per face cord. 4'x8'x16"

thenorthman · February 23, 2013, 11:07:24 PM

firewood is really just a side line, keeps a little extra money in my pocket, but its a whole bunch of work for very little profit. Tops etc. that I can get to and yard out while cutting bigger stuff for the mill, I'll go ahead and turn into firewood, or more likely sell it straight to the self loader and send it down the line (they pretty much all have people begging em for loads of firewood...). Once I get done with a cut all thats left is branches, really skinny tops, stumps, cotton wood, and junk that's to short to bother with. So yeah you could go in and maybe get a few cords of firewood, but yer gonna have to work hard for it.

Also most of the bigger outfits will haul of the slash to chipper or pellet mill, leaving nothing but bare dirt and short stumps.

If you can make a go at it go for it, but don't expect much.

thenorthman · February 23, 2013, 11:14:42 PM

Quote from: Timbercrk1 on February 23, 2013, 11:05:11 PM
How about if I can get the tops for free? Sounds like this would be the only way to go if any. Firewood in my area is $75-$100 on average per face cord. 4'x8'x16"

Face cords... really

So that's what around 300-400 for a real cord? I don't know what the cost of living is around there but that's a real good price around here, you could maybe kick $10-20 per face cord back to the land owner...

P.S. Face cords mean scheister round here... different coast though who knows.
just be sure that who ever is buying KNOWS that its a face cord and not a real cord...

stavebuyer · February 24, 2013, 04:44:05 AM

Whoever bought the timber most likley "owned" the tops. They left them. That's a good indication of their value.

SwampDonkey · February 24, 2013, 05:16:45 AM

[quote author=thenorthman link=topic=64488.msg961762#msg961762

P.S. Face cords mean scheister round here... different coast though who knows.
just be sure that who ever is buying KNOWS that its a face cord and not a real cord...
[/quote]

It doesn't have to be as long as the buyer knows it's 1/3 cord or whatever the dimensions are. Weights and measures here in Canada ( a federal regulator) has standards and just calling it a face cord or pickup load won't fly. The buyer needs to know the volume. A cord is a standard volume. A face cord is not, the sticks could be 16" or 24" or 12" long. And I do know of a few people not familiar with the woods business who have been ripped off by the face cord. With some it's an old trick.

Mark K · February 24, 2013, 07:20:13 AM

Highest I've ever seen it around here was $70. When I sold firewood I got $50 a face cord. I just sell it log lenght now. Alot less hassle.

g_man · February 24, 2013, 07:28:28 AM

There can be a tremendous amount of work in cleaning up a recently logged site and that is probably what most land owners are looking for - a cleanup and get paid to boot. They have no idea of the work and they some how think those tops are gold.
I would not consider paying for tops or even free tops if I was trying to make money. There is just to much work in them most times.
Turn the job into a site cleanup to the landowners desires with the land owner paying for that work. Whatever wood you get is just a little gravey.

DaleK · February 24, 2013, 07:29:24 AM

Maybe it's different there but around here folks that buy firewood expect to see the majority of what they buy as good sized split chunks of wood, not a bunch of limbwood which would make up the bulk of what you get from the tops. Doesn't make for happy customers. If you can burn the smaller wood yourself then maybe...

thecfarm · February 24, 2013, 07:31:14 AM

In my area the tops are hauled out too,down to about 4 inches with the guys that don't chip. Pulp here is everything under 8 inches,8 inches and up are used for logs.The logger that I am close too does not have a chipper,so everything under 4 inches is left in the woods. On my land if the tops was left I would use them for my own use. In this area I can not think of any big outfit that leaves the tops in the woods. I've seen it with one guy that was just cutting logs. I feel that it's a butcher job,around here. BUT I do know and understand why it is done in other areas. ;D Some loggers only pay the landowners about $10 a cord for hardwood pulp.
And what would you use to bring the tops out with? I just saw one site that would be real hard to get a tractor through the mess he left. But I will add I have seen some lots that a tractor could be used.

David-L · February 24, 2013, 08:09:51 AM

Not much profit in hauling tops, and the plowing through a cutting to get to tops if not placed forhand by the logger can be very dangerous. Only tops I would go for would be if it was a oak lot, beech, locust. Tractors tend to loose hydraulic hoses in this deal to. I always try to get the landowner to pay a minimal price to clean up the wood and leave them some sm dia wood. Just my thoughts.
Caveman

g_man · February 24, 2013, 10:42:55 AM

Quote from: thecfarm on February 24, 2013, 07:31:14 AM
In my area the tops are hauled out too,down to about 4 inches with the guys that don't chip. Pulp here is everything under 8 inches,8 inches and up are used for logs.The logger that I am close too does not have a chipper,so everything under 4 inches is left in the woods. On my land if the tops was left I would use them for my own use. In this area I can not think of any big outfit that leaves the tops in the woods. I've seen it with one guy that was just cutting logs. I feel that it's a butcher job,around here. BUT I do know and understand why it is done in other areas. ;D Some loggers only pay the landowners about $10 a cord for hardwood pulp.
And what would you use to bring the tops out with? I just saw one site that would be real hard to get a tractor through the mess he left. But I will add I have seen some lots that a tractor could be used.

Cfarm, do you really think it is a butcher job if you leave tops in the woods after taking the saw logs. I myself wouldn't do it any other way. All that large woody debris is great for wildlife and full of nutrients to fuel the next forest. Our forest soils are already depleated enough. Why not leave as much as you can. If you lop it up a little it doesn't even look that bad. Just my opinion.

thecfarm · February 24, 2013, 11:03:53 AM

What I meant was this guy just stopped at 8 inches and took the logs. He never touched any limb that he could not get a log from.So the top is still there with all the limbs still on the tree. I know other states leave it like that because of damage the deer will do.
No offense to what you do at all. I log with a farm tractor,only on my land. I would not want to drive over a 7 inch top. And I sure would not want to drive over it with 2-16 foot pine 2 feet across behind me.
I am very fussy with what I do leave in the woods. I try to saw up anything that I leave into 2-3 feet long pieces. Yes,it does take time,but I can drive right through my brush that way. I see that you cut up what you leave too. If anything is of any size,4-5 inches and not a big bother to bring out,I use it for firewood. I brought a OWB to burn all the stuff that I can not sell. But have not done any logging since I brought the OWB either. :

It's very hard to get rid of pulp on a small scale logging. The last load I sold the trucker really had to do some talking to get rid of it. It was softwood and had started to turn black. But they could cut some,on thier land,about 5 miles away in July and leave it there until Oct and that is OK.

SwampDonkey · February 24, 2013, 11:41:50 AM

G_man, it's just what we do because we need to make every cut count. Even the loggers here want to be able to move all they can. They even complain, that they cannot get rid of all the junk wood at times. We simply do not have a large percentage of logs versus pulp and firewood on the hardwood side. If you was to leave all the pulp trees and tops on a site it would look like a massive blow down. And besides that the public, their business or not, would be on your case. If we just went for the log trees the state of the forest health would get worst and worst. If you leave junk standing, there is no magic that will turn it into a piece of veneer in the future. Up here small diameter does not mean young and an over topped tree that looks like an umbrella or with a lop sided crown will not bloom into a veneer tree.

g_man · February 24, 2013, 12:52:34 PM

I must have said it wrong. Cfarm, I was not offended at all by your statement and SD I certainly was not saying that everyone should leave the tops in the woods. There are to many reasons now a days why you shouldn't or can't. I was just trying to say that if you did leave all the tops in the woods I would not automatically call it a butcher job just because it didn't look good. Mother Nature doesn't care. And those tops have value to wildlife and the soil. I leave all my tops in the woods only because I have no viable pulp market. For me it is less than break even on pulp.

To me a butcher job is when the residual trees, roads, and soils are left either damaged or in peril of being damaged from normal weather and site conditions. Or if only the best trees are taken and the residual trees are mostly valueless because of form, species, or stunting.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

gg

pasbuild · February 24, 2013, 02:41:22 PM

Your trying to keep your guys working and that's great but I think you will find that it would be a loosing venture with paid labor.

thecfarm · February 24, 2013, 05:56:40 PM

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. ;D From what you're saying I think you are doing a good job.

SwampDonkey · February 24, 2013, 06:17:19 PM

You also have to separate playing around making a park for walking in from making a living. ;)

I do a lot of thinning, but she stays on the ground. It's usually smaller than bat handle wood though. ;)

At one time, I had a guy working for me, when I had a 7 man crew, day dreaming about collecting all those cut stems from a thinning for feed stock to generate power for his house. Needless to say the steam ran out on that idea real quick. He could barely cut 2 acres a week, when everyone else cut about 4-5, let alone gathering brush with no pay on his own time. :D

thecfarm · February 24, 2013, 06:59:54 PM

Swampdonkey,yes,but when you get all the money,except trucking,I can be mighty fussy. ;)

SwampDonkey · February 24, 2013, 07:05:28 PM

Oh come on now. You can't be like all the landowners that think loggers costs are just the trucking while providing a disservice to your wallet. :D

thecfarm · February 24, 2013, 07:23:16 PM

I know taxes,chainsaws,tractors,winches,maintenance and many more things I missed are all free items. :D But I still don't have to give another person half of the money I get. That was my point. As I say to my wife when something breaks,We're making money now.

SwampDonkey · February 24, 2013, 07:28:51 PM

:D :D Just wait when she drives the tractor and your picking all the rocks.

thecfarm · February 24, 2013, 07:34:04 PM

I cured the whole family on picking rocks. :

For the most part the tractor does most of the work. The bucket does the digging,bucket can be put on the ground and rocks rolled in to it. Not like when we did not have a bucket. We use to put rocks on to a trailer and hauled them up into the bog. I have the easy life now. :D

NWP · February 25, 2013, 09:52:21 PM

I tried cutting tops. Once. A long time ago. I tell people when they call me wanting to buy their tops that as soon as you start cutting tops, you start losing money. I don't even mess with them if someone wants to give them to me for free. They always like to tell me how much wood is in them. I need decent logs for the processor and you can't get very many out of tops. When you're cutting small wood like that, it takes a while to add up. Maybe you could find some for free and try cutting some just to get a feel for it.

timberlinetree · February 26, 2013, 05:47:09 AM

Skidding distance should be a factor tops are more airy and it is tuff to haul alot of volume .also u need to be careful not to mark up a bunch of trees the bark comes of easy especially in the spring.we chop our tops down to a height of 2/ 4 feet.i think the law says 4 feet here.some tops are left in certain spots to stop 4 wheelers and erosion.you might have to pull a permit if the first one expired and obtain the proper license but not quite shure how it works in your area.good luck