Profit versus diameter comments

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

In the large diameter (54") circle mill I managed, we figured that at about 6.5" diameter we were at the break even point for profit.  Smaller logs were non-profit.  For Large logs we made an increasing profit up to about 16". Then the profit dropped and at 20" diameter we became a non-profit operation.

We did the same calculations for a small Wood Mizer and found that it was profitable at about 5" up to 12", with the profit being much higher than for the circle mill at most diameters by a large amount.  In other words, profitability was higher but over a smaller diameter range.

Certainly the calculations have assumptions, but it did give us guidance.  A circle mill was a good option for a wide range of diameters.

In Europe, I saw some mills that limited the diameter of the logs to only those that were profitable on their mill.  Further, in the log yard, they did diameter sorts and then when sawing, they sawed only one diameter at a time rather than a mixture.  Interesting approach indeed.

[lineguy82]

Wouldn't that depend on what type of material you were trying to get out of the log?

[mesquite buckeye]

Neat stuff, Gene. I have to continue to figure which logs are worth cutting and which ones to leave all the time. Also trying to think of ways to handle material more efficiently can help to some extent.

For our short, crooked mesquite logs we need more diameter on a WM to make any money. Once the logs get really big, they have to have some really special high dollar material inside to justify all the time it takes to get them done.

[Bibbyman]

Non scientific study shows we are most productive at about 14" diameter.

12-20" run pretty well.  10-12" are production killers on our mill. Seems you make more slab volume than lumber.

Larger than 20" are often rough taking extra effort to get down to size to start making money.

If we had to saw a lot of large logs, the LT70 class mill with 1.5x.055 blade would be more productive.

Lots of small logs - scrag with resaw.

We mostly saw oak and other hardwoods.

[Magicman]

I only custom saw and sometimes I do have to discard small logs with sweep.  Generally speaking, if a "log" is 5" it can make two 2X4's, or several 1X4's and gets sawed.  I would hate to see an entire whack of 5" logs, but what I encounter are the tips of larger logs, so all is good.  Sawing them just goes with providing a service.   

[jd_odell]

A "small log fee" per log under X" in diameter will assist in increasing profit.

[Ocklawahaboy]

Good thing I'm not sawing for profit... Yet.  I've been sawing anything I can get usable lumber out of for my projects.  It all leans me more toward an hour based charge rather than a board foot though, at least for custom sawing.

[mesquite buckeye]

A "small log fee" per log under X" in diameter will assist in increasing profit.

Good thinking, or more per board foot produced from hard to saw, low production logs.

[jd_odell]

A "small log fee" per log under X" in diameter will assist in increasing profit.

Good thinking, or more per board foot produced from hard to saw, low production logs.

Thanks, but I won't take credit for it.  I picked it up from a WM video series.  Some great info in their video series...

[Kingcha]

So glad to read all this valuable information.  Hopefully I will have my mill in 2 months from now and will spend the summer learning.   I am glad to hear that you can get lumber out of the smaller trees as well.   When and if I saw for others I have already decided to do it by the hour.   My overall goal is part-time work.   I know I will have to find "My Market" if its either cutting and selling my own timber or cutting for others.   So looking forward to it.

Thanks again, I am learning lots

[KnotBB]

Interesting study, but I wonder if it only applies to production mills where volume is everything, support equipment is readily available and the end product is commodity wood.

My gut feeling says the bigger the better, up to about 32" and there is a lot more flexibility in the end product which generally results in a higher market price per M.

I run a Lucas, am mostly a one man operation and anything under 12" I consider firewood, there are always exceptions.  Cut a 12" (and down) log into fire wood lengths, one whack with an ax or maul and you have salable fire wood that sells for around $180/cord or $360/m, most hard woods pay a little better. Total equipment involved is one ax and one chainsaw.  No skill involved.  Market through Craigs List and the customer comes and picks it up.  No stickers, no drying degrade and no worry about protected storage (maybe a tarp).

For me it takes about as much time to set up on a 12" log as it does a 21" and I'll spend a lot more time sawing verses setting up than I would with smaller logs.  At 4 times the footage for the 21" verses a 12" I do a lot less work setting up and produce a lot more lumber.

Specialty cuts and slabbing are a whole different story.

[Magicman]

If they are all small, then I might see a bit extra, but when just sawing a job, I find it more profitable to let the "hide go with the hair".   Some things really do not matter in the grand scheme of things.

Many times a customer will drag something out just as I finish a sawjob.  I normally just knock these out for free such as this:  LINK  And I got a very nice pen for doing this.   

[Bibbyman]

One redeeming factor with small logs is the Doyle scale.  If the log is sound and straight we can come out or maybe make money.

Our logger was mostly bringing 14" and up.   We had orders for 10' 6x6s. They were used as post in log homes so had to be fairly nice, straight and heart centered.  I talked to the cutter and told him to watch for "straight" 10"-12" 10' top logs out of their white oak stave cutting.  They worked perfect for making a 6x6. 

Well, they got carried away and started bringing in anything down to 10". Not good for them as they really couldn't make money on these small logs and we had too may non-10' logs to deal with.

[hackberry jake]

As far as profitability goes, most of the time the people that want lumber from me want wide boards. So my profitability goes up with big logs. I just got an order for 14 cherry stair treads 12" wide and 44" long. You wouldn't be able to get many of those out of a 16" log and the quality would be lower. The cherry I will be using for this request came from this tree    needless to say I should have plenty of 12" wide boards to choose from. I have a few 24-25" wide boards I can rip down the middle.

[Slab Slicer]

Jake, this question is way off subject, but I have to ask. How does that Toyota Tacoma pull that trailer. I have the same truck, but nothing that size for a trailer. I'd upgrade the trailer if i knew my truck would pull it.

Now.....back to your regularly scheduled thread ;) ;)

[Magicman]

 :D  From the looks of what is on the trailer, I would have to use the Debarker to determine which one to saw.   ;D

Now.....back to your regularly scheduled thread ;) ;)

[SwampDonkey]

A Tacoma will move anything won't it Jake? :D

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

:D  From the looks of what is on the trailer, I would have to use the Debarker to determine which one to saw.   ;D

Now.....back to your regularly scheduled thread ;) ;)

:D :D :D There is a little mud involved.

[LeeB]

Pulling is not the problem, it's stopping where the fun comes in.

[Magicman]

The only problem that I had with mine was no "limited slip".  That was my first requirement when I bought the Tundra.

[hackberry jake]

I was definately overloaded here 

 
But it does just fine. I have the Trd package so the springs are a little heavier and if you have trailer brakes you can stop just fine. I have a trailer that doesn't have brakes and it pulls just fine too, it does takes longer to stop but just watch further down the road and anticipate idiots and you'll be fine. I'm not a fan of limited slip. It will engauge when you don't want it too and here are clutches inside the housing that wear out. If I want to spin both tires I just engauge the electronic locker and away I go. I just wish they wouldve had the charcoal gray when I got mine.

[SwampDonkey]

Love it!  8) 8)

[Tom the Sawyer]

Back to diameter/profit...

Like MM, most of what I mill are customers' logs, whatever they have.  I do find that logs less than 12" diameter, or less than 6' long, require considerably more work for the board footage produced.  That is why I charge by the hour for those logs.  A lot depends on the overall job.  If most are >12" logs then I'll probably saw a few small ones by the bf too and just eat the difference.  If it is mostly small stuff then they are done by the hour.  I explain all of that during the site visit so there are no surprises. 

My productivity seems to go down somewhat when logs get over 24" diameter, even more so at 28" or more. 

Client cutting a groove for the guide roller...


 

[SwampDonkey]

That's an interesting specimen. Is that at a crotch where he's making some 'modifications'? ;D

[Brucer]

For those of us making a living at this (or hoping to in the future), it's essential that we know what kind of recovery we can get from different log type. Diameter is not the only criteria, either. Length, species, quality of wood, age of wood -- all of these enter into it.

We need to know how long it will take to process each log type. Processing includes log handling, product handling, and waste disposal.

We need to know what price we can get for the products that come out of each log type and how much of each product we can sell in a year.

We need to know what we will have to pay for the different log types.

Given this information, we can determine how much money per hour each type of log will earn for us. Then we can make rational business decisions on maximizing our income.

I know of no rational way of defining "profit" for a particular type of log.