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rookie looking for input on cuting 3 acres pulpwood

Started by dGarnier, February 15, 2013, 11:51:11 AM

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dGarnier

A few months back I purchased 280ac in north central Wisconsin, and to keep the taxes lower I entered the land into their MFL program.  As part of the program I had to have a management plan drawn up, so I had a forester out and he put together a pretty detailed plan and map.  With the plan drawn up there were a few stands that are due to be cut in 2014.  I then asked if we could get 1 of the stands going sooner than later to help fund a garage.  He felt we would do better getting the stands marked and out for bid.  All of which takes time and the good loggers will all be booked up for the next few months.  So  his recommendation was for part of the plan that calls for COPPICE REGENERATION HARVEST on a 3 acres stand where the most abundant tree species in this stand include Aspen (83%), Black Cherry (10%), White Birch (5%) and Elm (3%).  A note in the plan "These trees make up a two-aged stand with two distinct age classes. The oldest age class of trees originated about 1944. Management practices must take into account that some trees will become mature earlier than other trees." 


Being such a small stand right next to the road and pretty much pulp wood I could not screw it up too bad. Plus the forester said this would be a good stand to for me to tackle as there is not too much commercial value in this stand.  So in the next couple of weeks I have a few buddies lined up to give me hand.  So with a few saws and a old ford tractor we are going give it a go.  The plan was the forester will mark off the stand and we cut down everything inside the marks.  Cut everything into 100" and drag it out to the side of the road.  After reading a ton of threads it seems I will have to call around and see what diameters the mills are looking for. So it seems pretty straight forward, find a path in the stand that we can get the tractor in and out on and not burn a bunch of time driving back and forth.  I don't have a winch on the tractor yet, and won't have one for a while.  So I rigged up a 3pt draw bar with plate so that I can hook up to 6 chains not the best but it will have to due for now. 

Should we cut everything to 100" in the woods, or cut the trees off at the min diameter and then drag them out and buck them to 100" where we a piling the logs?

Any reason to keep the types of trees in their own piles?

And the big question is with 4 guys that have never done anything like this before and not quite the right equipment, are we looking at 3 days, 10 days, a month to knock this out?

Here is the layout of the stand in question – yellow line is gravel town road – green line is old logging trail – red is the outline of the stand to be cut.

If this is something that we can get down in under a week I was going to use A as the landing spot.  If it's going to be longer then that I was going it use B as its off the public road a bit.  I own everything to the right of the yellow line.

love being in the woods with a gun or a chainsaw

OneWithWood

Welcome to the forum!

I tackled a similar project a few years ago on 2.8 acres.
You can read about it here   https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,51827.0.html

It was incredibly helpful to me to have completed the Cutter 1-4 training previous to undertaking this task (also know as the Game of Logging).  You may find attacking this with four other people who may or may not know how to properly fell trees an exercise in coordination.  Perhaps you can divvy up the area into quadrants and assign teams to each quad so you are not in each others way and no one is endangered by trees falling in an unexpected way.

Sorting the trees by species will make things easier down the line.  Buck to length where the trees fall and carry out the bucked bolts on the front loader (add weight to the back for balance) and there will be less time spent chaining and unchaining hitches.  If you do not have a front loader drag tree length and buck at the landing.

This will take about three times as long as you think it will.  ;)
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

ely

personally i would skid the trees out as long as the tractor would safely move them. once on the landing they could be cut to lenght and fire wood even. leave the limbs in the woods.

as far as the amount of work done by your guys is anyones guess, not trying to be offensive at all, but if they are as green as you say, maybe you should just take it slow and see how wore out everyone gets after a few day.

priority one ,is safety of everyone involved, and if no one involved is an experienced feller,that is a serious concern in my eyes. good luck, at least you have a plan.

g_man

This could be a great learning experience or a total disaster. I would not rush into it. Set up a buyer(s) first. You will need an organized plan for cutting, topping, and skidding in the woods and know ahead of time what products and from which spiecies you want to make on the landing. If it is all 100" pulp that is easy but with a 1944 stand there must be some cherry, aspen, or other saw logs. I would think it would be worth the time learning to sort these on the landing.
There are lots of questions
Number one - Do you know how to work safely in the woods with saw and tractor. If you have never done it before then you don't. No matter what you think. I have been there. The best thing you can do is work very slow and get experienced advise and training if feasable.
What is the site like, can you drive the tractor anywhere. Working with just a tractor is slow. You will have to manage your slash and tops in a very organized way so they don't contiually get in your way.
Not knowing the details of your site this is a total guess but I would have two guys in the woods felling and dealing with the tops, one guy on the tractor pulling tree length logs within the safe ability of the tractor on what ever terain you have, and one guy one the landing unhooking the hitch, bucking and sorting.
You have a lot to learn, there is a lot to it. Take your time, do it right  and enjoy it. Like yo said it is low value stuff. A good place to learn as much as you can.

Good luck and stay safe.

thecfarm

I have cut wood on a small scale with a tractor. You said just about all pulp right???
I would try to leave as long as you can and buck to length at the landing. But if there are any logs,plan for them. In my area 8 inches and up inside the bark for saw logs.Tree length, 80 feet is hard on a tractor. I use to cut the longs ones in half and bring them out in about 30-40 feet. Just don't seem to haul so hard. I only had to keep the hard wood in one pile and the soft wood in another pile,for pulp. If you do cut logs the mills want them in a few weeks. I would also cut the brush up into pieces 2-3-4 feet long. Easier to do this while the limbs are still on the trees. Yes,that takes time,but if you plan on running through your brush,tractors do like like that and a branch might get caught and come up and hit you up side the head too. It can be hard to get six trees with no winch too. Yes,it might work sometimes,but alot of times you will only be able to get maybe 3 easy. We use to do it the way you are,than we got a winch. I know you said no winch,but just want you to know it's hard to get along side of a tree with just a draw bar. Don't want to kill the poor tractor. You said old ford,year,hp,2wd-4wd? You will have to go on someone contract for the pulpwood too. Some may charge you some stupid price and some will treat you right. There is alot to it,but you will learn alot by the time it is done. I do hope you will all have hardhats and chaps,good steel toe boots. Good luck.  ;D
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

gwilson

I cut about three acres last summer that was mostly pulpwood. I did it with a 7405 john deere with no winch just a 3 pt skid plate pulling four chains. I had a helper drive the tractor while i hooked chains. In my case I could lay down a weeks worth of skidding on Monday with a MS 441 Magnum and then skid and limb all week. I hauled my own wood too so that took time as well. down south we haul mostly tree length so that helped out but with a short stand height you had to double bunch the loads to get enough weight on. It is a great experience and will help you to be a much more involved land owner.

Bought me a Timberjack this winter and I'm ready for Summer.  ;D 8)   

dGarnier

None of us have any really cutting experience in the woods, other than some firewood here and there.  The tractor is 2wd and no loader.  The plan is that if this project goes well there are a few more pulpwood tracks that we will tackle.  By then I hope to pick up a winch and a better saw, right now I have a 455 rancher and stihl 180.  Then if the rest of the pulpwood tracks go OK I would look at getting a 4wd tractor with a loader, and start thinking about taking on some of the hardwood tracks that call for thinning. 

From what I am reading it seems dragging out trees and bucking them at the landing site seems to flow better.  Since this is not going to be quick I am going to opt for landing site B as it not on the road so I won't have to worry about the wood being on the road.  This will also set up nicely for 1 guy at the landing unhooking and bucking, 1 guy cutting trees in the woods and 1 guy on the tractor and the 4 guy filling in the woods or at the landing where ever we seem to need the help.

It my understanding it's all pulpwood, but to my untrained eye there are some big tress in this section.  What makes a log a log rather than pulpwood?  am I just looking for log that has a diameter over some size and that are straight with no branches? 

I will talk with the forester about finding a buyer ahead of time so that I can get lined up with them so I have somewhere for the wood to go.
love being in the woods with a gun or a chainsaw

dGarnier

  I do have access to one of the hard hats with a face shield and ear muffs, but no chaps yet, but I am putting together an order now for some chains, chaps and a few choker hooks from one of the sponsors 

love being in the woods with a gun or a chainsaw

gwilson

I highly recommend a good falling helmet and chaps are a must. A good ax with a shorter handle(I like a 28" handle) and plenty of wedges. I would fall with the bigger saw and keep a sharp chain handy. When skidding the tractor low stumps are your friend because you cannot lift the log over tall stumps and end up breaking up wood trying to bend it around tall stumps. These are just some things i had to figure out when I first started and thought I would pass along as suggestions. Somethings you will just figure out as you go no matter how much planning you do when you hit the woods things don't always go as planned.

One last thing. With a guy in the woods hooking chains we ran two sets so that every time the tractor pulled up his haul was already hooked. seamed to work for us. we also welded hooks on out carrier and used both ends of the chain with it hooked to the bar in the middle

JDeere

A lot of good advice given above. One thing I would add, be very careful logging with a tractor. One of the things most new guys never think about is the lack of cab or head protection from falling branches, trees, etc. All you have to do is bump a dead tree or one with a widow-maker and your logging days could be over. There are some good articles on tractor logging, Google search or this site. One rule I learned early on that has saved me more than once is: "watch where you are going, not where you have been." Good Luck-Stay Safe.
2013 Western Star, 2012 Pelletier trailer, Serco 7500 crane, 2007 Volvo EC 140, 2009 John Deere 6115D, 2002 Cat 938G, 1997 John Deere 540G, 1996 Cat D-3C, 1995 Cat 416B, 2013 Cat 305.5E

GeorgeK

We cleared several acres last summer with a Kabuto 3250 tractor and a skidding plate. Slow but doable. Safety first. I agree pull trees as long as you can less trips with the tractor. We brought al the branches out also using the tractor and put in burn pile or turned into fire wood.
George Kalbfleisch
Woodmizer LT40, twin blade edger, Bobcat A300, Kubota L48 and yes several logrites!

thenorthman

to make yer yarding go a little quicker get yerself about 100' of 3/8-9/16 cable with  eyes on both ends and a 4-6" snatch block (pulley block...) with a cat eye choker to hang the block from.

Set yer block around 20' up in a stout tree next to or near a skid road, run the cable through it with 2'3 chokers on the end, hook the other end to the tractor, tie on to a few logs and drive away until the logs meet the block tree (also known as a spar tree) unhook from logs and tractor, helper pulls the line out to hook some more logs while tractor backs up to spar.  Repeat until all the logs you can reach or have fell are yarded.  Then its real easy to back the tractor up to a big pile of logs and hook up a pile of em and drive to the proper landing. 

I logged like this for 3-4 years before getting better equipment, my uncle used to use a beat up old truck and drive it like a tractor yarding logs like this.  once you get the weight off of one end logs get really easy to move..

All told you shouldn't need to spend more than $300. for this kind of rigging(and thats if you buy all top of the line stuff...)

Also my first "skidder" was a 1941 ford 9n... pulled some really big wood with it, its was just kinda slow, one log at a time...

Either way your still looking at several weeks at best to clear 3 acres, and it might be a whole lot safer to just have one or two of yer buddies helping you at first, at least until you get yer game plan ironed out.
well that didn't work

dGarnier

Quote from: gwilson on February 15, 2013, 07:50:53 PM
I highly recommend a good falling helmet and chaps are a must. A good ax with a shorter handle(I like a 28" handle) and plenty of wedges. I would fall with the bigger saw and keep a sharp chain handy. When skidding the tractor low stumps are your friend because you cannot lift the log over tall stumps and end up breaking up wood trying to bend it around tall stumps. These are just some things i had to figure out when I first started and thought I would pass along as suggestions. Somethings you will just figure out as you go no matter how much planning you do when you hit the woods things don't always go as planned.

One last thing. With a guy in the woods hooking chains we ran two sets so that every time the tractor pulled up his haul was already hooked. seamed to work for us. we also welded hooks on out carrier and used both ends of the chain with it hooked to the bar in the middle

I like the idea of 2 sets of chains and ordered some extra hooks so we can run two set ups.  I have 4 wedges now,but why bring an ax?
love being in the woods with a gun or a chainsaw

JDeere

I like the idea of 2 sets of chains and ordered some extra hooks so we can run two set ups.  I have 4 wedges now,but why bring an ax?
[/quote]

You'll need something to pound the wedges in.
2013 Western Star, 2012 Pelletier trailer, Serco 7500 crane, 2007 Volvo EC 140, 2009 John Deere 6115D, 2002 Cat 938G, 1997 John Deere 540G, 1996 Cat D-3C, 1995 Cat 416B, 2013 Cat 305.5E

dGarnier


Quote from: thenorthman on February 16, 2013, 01:14:40 AM
to make yer yarding go a little quicker get yerself about 100' of 3/8-9/16 cable with  eyes on both ends and a 4-6" snatch block (pulley block...) with a cat eye choker to hang the block from.

Set yer block around 20' up in a stout tree next to or near a skid road, run the cable through it with 2'3 chokers on the end, hook the other end to the tractor, tie on to a few logs and drive away until the logs meet the block tree (also known as a spar tree) unhook from logs and tractor, helper pulls the line out to hook some more logs while tractor backs up to spar.  Repeat until all the logs you can reach or have fell are yarded.  Then its real easy to back the tractor up to a big pile of logs and hook up a pile of em and drive to the proper landing. 

I logged like this for 3-4 years before getting better equipment, my uncle used to use a beat up old truck and drive it like a tractor yarding logs like this.  once you get the weight off of one end logs get really easy to move..

All told you shouldn't need to spend more than $300. for this kind of rigging(and thats if you buy all top of the line stuff...)

Also my first "skidder" was a 1941 ford 9n... pulled some really big wood with it, its was just kinda slow, one log at a time...

Either way your still looking at several weeks at best to clear 3 acres, and it might be a whole lot safer to just have one or two of yer buddies helping you at first, at least until you get yer game plan ironed out.

I like the sound of this idea...the only part that I am not sure about is the cat eye choker to hang the block from?  from what I found on the web a cat eye choker is a wire rope choker with a loop/eye on 1 side and stop ferrule on the other with a slide on the cable.

Now I am  starting to see this as two phases first the cutting job.  My plan is to start at the far end of the stand and work my way back to there the skid road will hook up with the old logging trail.  This way for the most part the tress will be on the ground facing the right way with the butts closest to the skid road.  I will leave some spar trees standing to be used in the skidding operation and then once that section is cleared bring down the spar tree with the last pull for that section.
love being in the woods with a gun or a chainsaw

WDH

Your biggest issue may be getting a market for the wood.  Down here, insurance requirements preclude small volumes of wood being purchased from one-time producers.  Make sure that you understand the requirements and that you can sell the wood before investing a bunch of money in equipment. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

beenthere

Ron's (and WDH's) point is the most important that I see. Would be disappointing to get wood stacked up and no one interested in moving it and in addition, no one interested in buying it.

QuoteYou'll need something to pound the wedges in.

I don't take an ax to the woods, but do take the wedges. I tap the wedges tight with a 2-3" diam stick made quickly on site. Saves lugging an extra tool and they are a dime a dozen by most every tree in the woods. A light tap on 1-3 wedges in a backcut kerf will add a lot of lifting force to tip a tree.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

thenorthman

ya got the cat eye right, wrap the choker around the tree and hang the block off the eye.  you can brave a tall ladder for this rather than trying out climbing gear. don't need much lift, but every bit helps.

Yer on the right track as far as planning the cut,  tractors really can't pull much in comparison to say a dozer or skidder, so its sometimes better to fall a few, yard a few, rinse and repeat.  Depending on tree size of course.

The other gentlemen are correct though, you really need to find somewhere for your logs to go once they leave your property, before you start cutting.

It would be a good idea before you start cutting (ie after finding a buyer) to walk your site and flag/paint the trees you want left for use as spars, make sure they are green live trees with no dead branches hanging out of em, tall straight and fat are what yer looking for.  with good roots that are not likely to pull up.  Some trees are know for having shallow roots, as far as the east coast I couldn't tell ya whats what for that, but out here Hemlocks, cotton wood, and Alders are no no's for spar trees, although I have used hemlocks when there wasn't anything else...
well that didn't work

OneWithWood

Not having an FEL and only a 2wd tractor negates bucking in the woods, obviously.  A word of caution when pulling tree length or even log length with a tractor - go slow.  It is amazing how fast a tractor will flip over backwards when pulling a log and the log hits a stump or digs in.
Do find a buyer before you cut the first tree.
Do learn how to properly use directional felling before you cut the first tree.  A mistake while felling (falling) a tree can have terminal results for you and those around you.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

dGarnier

I have put in quite a few hours last summer on the tractor pull out rocks that weighted more then the tractor so that part is not new.  I will talk with the forestor next week to make sure I will be able to get the wood sold.  I am pretty sure it should be a problem as he was the one that said the poople stand would be a good stand to cut as we should see 50$ rather then 25$ a ton or cord.
love being in the woods with a gun or a chainsaw

thenorthman

So what kind of tractor are you using?  getting some kind of blade on it will make stacking logs at the landing easier as well.  I guess it could be accomplished with a back blade turned around backwards, just harder to see whats happening.

Just be careful and avoid side loads, and pulling really big stuff really hard.  Ive had my front end 4-5 feet off the ground, and it don't take very long, get some good traction and focusing on the pull next thing you know all you can see is grey sky and hungry ravens...
well that didn't work

colincb183

When you buck your pulp, make sure you sort it into Aspen, Hardwood, and Pine/Softwood.  I don't know what mill you plan on selling to, but most of the paper mills in Central Wisconsin buy in those three categories.  And last I knew aspen pulp was going for $75/ cord, pine was $80 or $90 and not sure about hardwood.  That was at the Wisconsin Rapids NewPage mill.

Cedar Savage

Welcome to FF & Logging   :laugh:
Four guys & two small saws (455 rancher and stihl 180) gonna make for some guy's standing around waiting for cutting to get done. Ya should have another saw, an a extra, in case of problems. Have 2 guys falling & brushing, 1 guy skidding, 1 guy bucking up on the landing & piling the best he can.
Call some log truckers & find one that'll work with you to haul it, also ask them about markets, as they'll know whats going on around the area.
Most of all be safe!
"They fried the fish with bacon and were astonished, for no fish had ever seemed so delicious before."         Mark Twain

dGarnier

Quote from: thenorthman on February 16, 2013, 05:10:18 PM
So what kind of tractor are you using?  getting some kind of blade on it will make stacking logs at the landing easier as well.  I guess it could be accomplished with a back blade turned around backwards, just harder to see whats happening.
its just an old ford 650 no FEL and no back blade.  So we are going tgo just try and drag the big log righ to the pile and then we will try and move and stack the smaller logs.  Next tim e I am up there I was going to talk to the farmer down the road and see if he would mind stopping by with the skid steer to pile some logs.  If not we will just have lots of small piles
love being in the woods with a gun or a chainsaw

dGarnier

Quote from: colincb183 on February 16, 2013, 11:09:21 PM
When you buck your pulp, make sure you sort it into Aspen, Hardwood, and Pine/Softwood.  I don't know what mill you plan on selling to, but most of the paper mills in Central Wisconsin buy in those three categories.  And last I knew aspen pulp was going for $75/ cord, pine was $80 or $90 and not sure about hardwood.  That was at the Wisconsin Rapids NewPage mill.

ok so we will definettly sort the log types.  The prices where just ballpark numbers the forestor tossed out there and with no trailer to get logs to the mill there will be a middle man.  I see log trucks parked all over so I think I will be able to find someone that will wantto me a few extra $$$.  The plan is next week to get the details of what to die with the wood worked out.
love being in the woods with a gun or a chainsaw

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