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Ash ID in South Carolina

Started by Okrafarmer, February 14, 2013, 08:08:00 AM

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Okrafarmer

I cut my first ash trees Tuesday. I wasn't sure of the species, but after I got home I looked in "The Book" (thanks, WDH) and saw that there are primarily two species of ash that grow naturally around here. These ash were definitely in what seemed to be a naturally propagating area, so I guess I probably have two options, white ash or green ash. It looks from initial inspection that green ash has a dark bark and white ash has a lighter bark. Is that fairly accurate? Of course the leaves are not out yet. They were in Taylors, South Carolina, in the center of Greenville County. No, I didn't take pictures, I was in the heat of the moment, but I can get pictures of the logs at some point, maybe tomorrow.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

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Dodgy Loner

An experienced eye can usually distinguish green ash from white by the bark, but the diagnostic trait is the pattern of fissures on the bark, not the color. The more reliable things to look at are the twigs (specifically, the leaf scars) and the samaras. The pictures in "The Book" should communicate the differences more clearly than I can by words.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

WDH

Dodgy is right on.  Look at the leaf scars on the twig.  In white ash, the petiole will surround and swallow up the bud.  In green ash, the bud will just be sticking up enough to show as viewed from the side.  In white ash, the blade of the samara does not extend much past the body of the seed, whereas, in green ash, the blade of the samara extends about halfway down the seed.

All said and done, there is not a pot-o-beans difference between the two. The lumber is indistinguishable between the two.  Botanists like to be splitters.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Okrafarmer

Quote from: Dodgy Loner on February 14, 2013, 11:06:48 AM
An experienced eye can usually distinguish green ash from white by the bark, but the diagnostic trait is the pattern of fissures on the bark, not the color. The more reliable things to look at are the twigs (specifically, the leaf scars) and the samaras. The pictures in "The Book" should communicate the differences more clearly than I can by words.

Ok, so what about this bark pattern distinction? Maybe I'm OCD, but I like to learn my species so I can tell my OCD customers what species their wood is. I may only get the logs sometimes, without all the petioles and samaras and such.  :-\
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

beenthere

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

SwampDonkey

Okra, In your region, as far as lumber goes, it isn't going to be worth the extra effort to separate the two. Just call it "white ash" and you would not be lying. Just like grouping red oaks and white oaks. However, up my way and Maine you have to separate black ash from "white ash".

On the white ash vs green ash (sometimes called red ash), in my area the latest branch tips on white ash are dark purple or black when they harden off for winter. And leaves mostly turn a mahogany or red-purplish color in fall. But sadly the leaves drop very quickly compared to maple.  :'(
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

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Okrafarmer

"The Book" states, on page 255, that "Wood of green ash is inferior to that of white ash, being more brittle and less resilient."

So, based on this, I like to know which species. I should have kept a twig but I was in a hurry and the guy I was clearing them for probably already burned the brush.

If the bark pictures in "The Book" are anything to go on, I have seen both green ash and white ash in the area, and the ones I cut were probably white ash.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

SwampDonkey

You'll want to throw that book out. ;D Oregon ash is also grouped with  he "white ash. I looked up the description of "white ash" and it was calling green ash, red ash, further on in the next paragraph. My Canadian dendro text calls it red ash. Also my books on these ash makes no distinction in the wood. If I gave you a board of green (red) and of white, you gonna show me the difference? ;D

When we talk about pounding ash for baskets, it's not from "white ash", native basket making was always from black ash. They made lots of baskets locally on the reservation for potato picking on farms.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Al_Smith

Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 15, 2013, 06:10:33 AM
  But sadly the leaves drop very quickly compared to maple.  :'(
They are all dead now around here but before the EAB hit them the ash were the first ones to drop their leaves .They certainly do not display the vivid colors of a sugar maple tree in fall .The beech are the last ones to shed fact they still have some of last seasons follage hanging on .

SwampDonkey

Yes, my yard beech and white oak hold the dry dead leaves all winter until the buds break in spring.

A couple years ago the neighbor said my oak died. I said in a sense I suppose, but it's just dormant. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Okrafarmer

Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 16, 2013, 03:36:18 AM
You'll want to throw that book out.
:o  I'm going to tell WDH on you.  >:(
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

WDH

I suspect that they hybridize, too, so it is a tangled web  :).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Dodgy Loner

Can you post pictures of the bark?
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

WDH

Dodgy,

Explain the differences that you see in the bark.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Okrafarmer

I will try to get some pictures ASAP. Err, there's a slight possibility I could be wrong and it isn't ash at all.  :-[ But I'm pretty sure that's what it is. It cut fairly easily with the chainsaw (not like hickory), and smelled a bit like burned wood (like hickory does, but definitely softer). Another possibility could be basswood, but I don't think that's what it was. The corn rows of the bark were rather small, like the size of a pencil or a tad smaller.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

WDH

Look at a clean slice of the end grain.  Ash is ring porous with a large earlywood pores (wood put down in the Spring in the growth ring) and distinctly smaller latewood pores (wood put down in the summer in the growth ring) while basswood is diffuse porous with all small pores with no distinction between the earlywood and latewood.  That is why the grain is so plain in basswood.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Okrafarmer

Gotcha, I will check for that. Either way, I have neither milled either species before, so I am looking forward to it. Does ash usually have a really distinct heartwood of good size? Seems like one of these trees didn't show a real distinct or very dark heartwood.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

WDH

No, not like cherry or walnut.  It can have heartwood all right, but it does not predominate.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Okrafarmer

It's possible that one of the ones I cut was a black gum. It had very little or no heartwood to show. I will check it out more thoroughly. Some of them I'm pretty sure were ash.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

WDH

Blackgum is also diffuse porous, like basswood.  It has very little "grain" in the lumber.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Okrafarmer

Quote from: WDH on February 17, 2013, 10:05:03 PM
Blackgum is also diffuse porous, like basswood.  It has very little "grain" in the lumber.

Yes. And it is one of the smoothest lumber I've ever milled. Hardly have to sand it.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

WDH

Also spiral grain like sweetgum  :).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Okrafarmer

Quote from: WDH on February 17, 2013, 10:32:09 PM
Also spiral grain like sweetgum  :).

But it seems to behave a lot better than sweetgum, and lie down pretty flat. I haven't had any trouble with the black gum boards I have been air-drying since last spring.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: WDH on February 17, 2013, 08:05:42 AM
Dodgy,

Explain the differences that you see in the bark.

Ok, I will, but hesitantly. I will note that my observations are limited to ashes in the Piedmont region of Georgia and South Carolina, and may not hold true elsewhere. In areas like South Georgia, where white ash does not exist, I don't pay as much attention to the bark, since I can tell at a glance that I'm looking at a green ash.

White ash tends to have very thick, blocky bark. On older specimens, you hardly ever see the interlacing diamond pattern that is so often associated with ashes. Green ash bark tends to be not-so-thick, and it maintains the interlacing diamond pattern, even on older specimens. As the trees age, they tend to get horizontal breaks in the ridges, but the bark never becomes blocky, like white ash. Green and white ash also tend to occupy different habitats. If you find an ash in a bottomland, you've almost certainly found a green ash. On a dry, south-facing hillside, you are far more likely to find white ash. On the in-between sites, that are not bottomland, but remain moist most of the time, you can find either. The bark differences are most stark in specimens that were growing either in a bottom or on a dry hillside. On the in-between sites, the bark characteristics start to intergrade, and it is necessary to look for more concrete characteristics to separate the two. Honestly, the site differences are as reliable for separating white ash from green ash as the bark characteristics, so if you know where the tree came from, the bark won't likely tell you much more. However, if you have a log and you have no idea where it came from, then being able to pick out the differences in the bark can be very helpful.

Clear as mud? ;)
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

WDH

So, the upland ash where the bark goes from ridged, then to blocky, then back to ridged, then back to blocky is usually white ash?  Almost knobby, like a big upland balckgum?
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Okrafarmer

And all this time I was hoping that white ash had white bark, and green ash had green bark.  :-\
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Al_Smith

Quote from: Okrafarmer on February 17, 2013, 03:03:10 PM
It cut fairly easily with the chainsaw (not like hickory), and smelled a bit like burned wood (like hickory does, but definitely softer). Another possibility could be basswood,
Ash in the green live state is relatively easy to cut .If it' s dead like all of ours although they retain moisture they are hard as a rock .I've been debating that subject with my learned  bud Swampish for some time .Now of course both of us being rather firm minded won't give an inch . :D

Basswood is soft and I doubt would ever get hard unless you brine soaked the lumber or something .Fact it's so soft in the green state a well sharpened chainsaw chain will pull big long fluffy chips that look like planer chips .

I've got pics of both ash and basswood and if you want I'll post them but I figured most people know the difference already .

Okrafarmer

Well, I haven't dealt much with either one in a long time, but at least I can tell the difference when the leaves are on.  :-\
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: WDH on February 18, 2013, 08:31:03 PM
So, the upland ash where the bark goes from ridged, then to blocky, then back to ridged, then back to blocky is usually white ash?  Almost knobby, like a big upland balckgum?

Yes, the knobby ash bark is almost always white ash. It can be almost identical to upland blackgum until you cut into it. The ash bark will be soft and a light khaki color when cut, while blackgum will be crumbly and have light brown and dark brown splotches when cut. Blackgum is a chameleon. It likes to look like sweetgum, too. But sweetgum bark is the color of dried blood when you cut into it.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

SwampDonkey

I have not paid much attention to bark differences in the two up here, Our white ash has a brown tinge to the bark and diamond shape when young. It almost always has white spots (not lichen or fungus) on the younger bark like young maple and young large tooth aspen. When the tree is quite old it looses this diamond pattern and tends to become flat ridged and scaly in narrow strips maybe 6" long.

Around here, if you have to wade water to get to an ash, it's black ash. The white ash is an upland tree, but rich deep soils with lots of moisture, black humic soil, but well drained and always with sugar maple (or aspen), sometimes butternut and basswood. Red maple may be present, but not a good indicator because it grows on a wide range of sites. If there is black ash with it, the black ash will be around wet water soaked sites. Never see white ash in glacial sand type soil. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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