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Questions about swing mills

Started by WoodenHead, February 07, 2013, 08:54:21 PM

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WoodenHead

I was wondering a few things about swing mills and hopefully some of you swing mills owners can answer a few questions I have.

1.  One average what kind of production (bdft per hour or day) do you see when you are sawing alone - hardwood versus softwood?  (Assume 1" lumber)
2.  When cutting an 8" or 10" wide horizontal cut (depending on your mill) do you have to make two passes?  If so, why would the vertical cut only take one pass?
3.  Do any of you have a board return feature on your swingmill?  If so, what brand of mill do you have?

Gasawyer

As a secondary mill I run a 618 Lucas. Haven't really cut much 1" generally cut 2"+. But I would guess 200-400bdft. hr softwood and approx the same for oak-hickory haven't had much decrease in hardwood. Production  really depends on size of logs at least for me. Bigger better and how much help(generally work alone).

#2  Taking 2 passes on the horizontal from my understanding gives  a better cut and less binding.

#3 No board return
Woodmizer LT-40hdd super hyd.,Lucas 618,Lucas 823dsm,Alaskian chainsaw mill 6',many chainsaws large and small,NH L555 skidsteer, Int. TD-9,JD500 backhoe, and International grapple truck.

Seaman

WoodenHead,

# 1 don't know, haven't kept track. Results from the Sawmill Shootouts can answer that for you.

#2  Yes, if possible I always cut 6in or 8in or whatever vertical, then width cutting horizonal.

#3 No board return. Mine is a Lucas 8/27, and I LOVE IT. I try to have an off bearer on the other end to handle boards.

Hope this helps, lots of others here with much more swing mill time than me.
Frank
Lucas dedicated slabber
Woodmizer LT40HD
John Deere 5310 W/ FEL
Semper Fi

Ianab

1- Production is just so variable. Depends on logs size and how you are set up. Also how fast YOU want to hustle. The operator is usually the weakest link  :D Some logs do slow you down, but it's not just the hardness of the wood. I've had to slow down more in knotty cedar than clean eucalyptus (very dense and hard).

2 - The full width horizontal cuts have a tendency to make the frames wobble side to size, even with the braces in place. You can slow down, and you need to in the full depth cuts anyway. This means it's often faster to make 2 passes of 4 or 5" each, at high speed, compared to one slower full depth pass. So it's not a case of the mills not being able to do it, it's just that it's faster to do the 2 passes.

3 - The only mills I'm aware of that would have dragback is the Peterson ASM and the Turbo-Saw. Both are high end fully automatic machines. Although you can run them alone using the drag-back to really get full production out of a mill like that you probably want a crew of 3, to really keep it humming. If you are sawing alone on a manual mill, reverse the cutting pattern. Cut the backwards vertical first, and finish with the horizontal. Then you end up standing beside the sawn board ready to offload. Still slower than having a helper, but not by as much.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

WoodenHead

Thanks for the answers guys!  Now I have a few more questions  ;D

1.  I have been looking at a few used swingmills (Peterson and Lucas mainly).  A number of them have between 1000 and 2000 hours.  A very high percentage of those are being sold with an engine that has been replaced.  Is there a problem with the engines?  Is the 10" blade particularly hard on an engine?
2.  What is the expected life of a swingmill (i.e. Is it unreasonable to expect 10,000 hours from a machine)?
3.  Aside from the engine, what are the expensive wear parts?
4.  What parts need regular replacement?

Thanks Ian for pointing out that you can do the vertical cut first and finish with the horizontal.  Simple once you think about it, but makes the world of difference in terms of handling when operating alone.  I have no helper at the present time and no chance of getting one any time soon.

5.  How difficult is it to push the head of a swingmill?  I presently have a manual mill and I sleep well at night despite the fact that I have power feed.  Board handling and pushing the head may put me 6 feet under  :D

6.  The majority of the logs I work with are 13-24 inches diameter (small end) for softwood and 10 to 24 inches for hardwood.  Sawing primarily 1 inch pine in 16ft lengths, is it unreasonable to expect 1000 bdft per day (sticker stacked  ;D) when sawing alone?  The best I have done on my LT28 is 700 bdft/day (consistently) sticker stacked. 

I'm looking for a machine that can give me just a little bit more production.  I have even thought of sawing cants with the swingmill and throwing them on the LT28 to slice up.  This would help with the kerf loss.  ;) 

   

Gasawyer

I believe that the reason some of the mills have replacement engines is pore maintenance by operator(sinc they are air cooled keep air inlet and cooling fins blown out. Also check and change oil regularly)

#2 I don't see why it wouldn't reach 10,000hr.

#3 On a Lucas the expensive parts would be the clutch and the swing gear box. Everything else is relatively minor in cost.

#4 Depends on wether  the mill is keep outside or under cover. Blade tips,carriage rollers,etc. Again alot depends on maintenance and just take care of the mill.

#5 Depends on the wood being sawn, the setup of the mill diameter of log(easier for me to push when head is between waist and shoulders than above shoulders). Pushing head I think will be easier than handling the 16' 1by.

#6 I think that the production figure that asked about  is going on depend on you. I think that wouldn't be any problem for me to achive 1000bdft in a relatively easy day(ie not can see till can't see).

I am not sure that a swing mill is the solution for boosting your production, stepping up to a hydrolic band mill would be a lot easier on you. As an example I cut for a guy with my WM lt40hdd and with 2 helpers we had sawn 3000bdft in 6 engine hr. (9 man hr.)in pine logs that were on the large end of your dimensions. I think that a 1000bdft could be sawn in 4-5 hrs solo counting stickering with a hydrolic band mill. I would suggest that you go operate a swing mill and then a hydrolic band mill then decide which way that you want to go. Just my two cents.
Woodmizer LT-40hdd super hyd.,Lucas 618,Lucas 823dsm,Alaskian chainsaw mill 6',many chainsaws large and small,NH L555 skidsteer, Int. TD-9,JD500 backhoe, and International grapple truck.

hackberry jake

If your logs were all in the 30-40" range I would say go for the swinger. But I think gasawyer is right. You already have a mill. Just up the poneys on the motor and add hydraulics and you've only spent $2-3k.
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

Ianab

Only other expensive part is the gearbox, and that can wear out eventually like the engine. Not the end of the world. Other than that you have various bearings, belts, etc that might break or wear out, but those are minor. Blades will wear out eventually, but you can expect one to last for years, and be re-tipped multiple times. Now you might end up like Grandad's axe. Had 3 new handles and 2 new heads, but it's the same axe  ;)

Pushing the mill is the easy part. OK it's manual, you flip leavers, wind handles, and walk with the mill. But it's not "hard" work. Moving boards and logs is the hard part, and that's what's going to tire you our first.

Small logs really slow production. The mill can cut them just fine, but so can your band mill. While you are loading logs, the mill isn't cutting. While you are making the opening and edging cuts you aren't producing etc. With small logs you spend a lot of time doing this, so production suffers. Cutting a 1" board takes as long as a 2" board, so you only get 1/2 the production there as well.

I'm with the others, although a swingblade will work for you, with the small logs, not significantly better (or worse) than a good band mill. Where the Swingblades get good production is cutting larger dimension stock from big logs. You get the log loaded and opened up, then just pull off board after board without needing to stop for another log. Watching an Automatic swing-blade cutting 4x6" out of a 4ft redwood log, not that's impressive production, although you need 2 off loaders to keep it humming.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

WoodenHead

Again, thanks for the answers!

I've been searching for hydraulic bandsaw mills, but I thought I should investigate all options before I pull the trigger. 

I have limited my log size to less than 24" diameter.  In some cases I have needed pine, for example, in the worst way and all that was available was 36"-48" in diameter.  Some land clearing folks were offering large diameter hardwood logs and I had to pass.  But, most of the time (i.e. 90%+) logs around here will be 10"-24" anyway.

The other side of the equation is edging.  I don't have an edger.  If I upgrade the mill there is absolutely no funds for an edger.  The swing mill nicely takes care of this.

Yet, I'm not sure that a swingblade is what would work best either.  I'm trying to reduce handling and hydraulics would help with that.  I've added a hydraulic log turner to my manual mill, so I have a taste.  But I'm realizing that to rely on homemade hydraulics for production might not be such a good idea.  And to finish designing and fabricating all of the other functions is going to burn a lot of time.  If I add all of the features I would like on a mill, I've spent about $8000 (log loading arms, toe rollers, back stop, two-plane clamp, de-barker and 15HP 3 phase electric motor, 5HP hydraulic pump).  That $8000 goes a long way towards another mill. ;)

Thanks again for your help.  Always good to get others perspectives. :)

Ianab

If you have access to those 3 - 4 ft logs then a swingmill does start to make sense. That's what they are designed to cut, and they do it better than anything else (in the price range anyway)

Is there a steady supply of those larger logs, if you became the local "go to" guy for big logs? They often contain better grade wood, but can be bought cheaper because they are too big for most mills to handle. Even if only 5% of the local logs fall into that class, can you get most of them?

As I said, you can still cut 10" logs, just it wont have any real advantage over your current mill. We spent an afternoon cutting 4x4 posts out of ~6" cedar logs. Log loading was funny, just pick them up and carry them to the mill  :D But then 3 runs up and back and we had a 4x4.  Didn't track time, but I bet we actually got pretty good production numbers  :)

The Swingblade is also very portable, opens up the opportunity to saw oversize logs for other people? The mill is easier to move than a large log is. Spending a day at another mill site breaking down a few big logs and be a good deal for both parties.

The chainsaw slabber attachments are another thing to consider. Not many mills can produce 4ft dia live edge boards, but they can be worth a lot of $$ in the right market. Way more than the same log sliced into boards anyway.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

terrifictimbersllc

My milling is 100% portable and I work alone except for material handling usually provided by the customer.  I have both a hydraulic bandsaw and a 10" swing mill.   I am having a great adventure with both of these mills, and if I am still woodworking when I sell out of this business, I'd probably keep the swing mill just because it can do everything, stores in less space, and isn't a vehicle. But, if there's a pile of logs and a customer wants done to them what my bandsaw can do, and what ought to be done to them from the log's point of view, which is usually the same thing, I will use the bandsaw to do it.  I won't use a swing mill to try to compete with myself or another bandsaw operator who can handle that pile of logs.    If there are logs that a bandsaw can't do to them what ought to be done, then I use the swing mill.    For these logs, there's no competition with a bandsaw hydraulic or not.  I agree that swing mills are highly portable.  Mostly, and if I have enough energy left in my body to port it around.  And that my bandsaw is also highly portable,  especially when dropped on the 2" ball of a 7.3L diesel 4x4.  :) :) :) 
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

sigidi

Quote from: WoodenHead on February 07, 2013, 08:54:21 PM
I was wondering a few things about swing mills and hopefully some of you swing mills owners can answer a few questions I have.

1.  One average what kind of production (bdft per hour or day) do you see when you are sawing alone - hardwood versus softwood?  (Assume 1" lumber)
2.  When cutting an 8" or 10" wide horizontal cut (depending on your mill) do you have to make two passes?  If so, why would the vertical cut only take one pass?
3.  Do any of you have a board return feature on your swingmill?  If so, what brand of mill do you have?

Woodenhead great questions...

1. on my own, rolling logs, tailing timber plus waste, working the mill and strapping the sawn timber I can happily go through 3 cubic metres each and every day (1272 bft) if I know I need to get through something for the day and have an easy day the following day I can get through 4 cubic metres (1700bft) that usually means I sleep well that night.
2. if you want your mill to last the long haul and you also want to keep your customers coming back - do big horizontals in 2 passes. As we are doing this to make money if making large horiz passes there is a tendency to 'push' harder to 'get it done' this results in working the daylights out of your mill but also means more often than not your blade will dive/rise in this scenario, giving poor quality timber. You can do deep vert cuts no problem versus horiz as all the 'free' sawdust builds up under the horiz blade during the cut. In vert cuts the 'free' sawdust falls both sides of the blade thus doesn't 'build up' on one side and create problems. When I say 'free' sawdust the gullets in the blades are deep, but they can only hold so much sawdust, in shallow cuts its no problem the gullet takes out the sawdust, in the deeper cuts some of this sawdust falls out the gullets.
3. As others mentioned the only ones on the market with board return are over the $50k mark, but no harm in fabricating one yaself. Personally I set up so the mill cuts on an slope and I can tail while it cuts on its own. and as Ian said do your vertical cut first then your horizontal, this way the board is right next to you - I do this if I have a helper aswell, this way I can still get the board out when my helper is going too slow :(

and as I've been away a couple days your other q's

Quote from: WoodenHead on February 08, 2013, 07:00:29 AM
Thanks for the answers guys!  Now I have a few more questions  ;D

1.  I have been looking at a few used swingmills (Peterson and Lucas mainly).  A number of them have between 1000 and 2000 hours.  A very high percentage of those are being sold with an engine that has been replaced.  Is there a problem with the engines?  Is the 10" blade particularly hard on an engine?
2.  What is the expected life of a swingmill (i.e. Is it unreasonable to expect 10,000 hours from a machine)?
3.  Aside from the engine, what are the expensive wear parts?
4.  What parts need regular replacement?
5.  How difficult is it to push the head of a swingmill?  I presently have a manual mill and I sleep well at night despite the fact that I have power feed.  Board handling and pushing the head may put me 6 feet under  :D
6.  The majority of the logs I work with are 13-24 inches diameter (small end) for softwood and 10 to 24 inches for hardwood.  Sawing primarily 1 inch pine in 16ft lengths, is it unreasonable to expect 1000 bdft per day (sticker stacked  ;D) when sawing alone?  The best I have done on my LT28 is 700 bdft/day (consistently) sticker stacked. 

I'm looking for a machine that can give me just a little bit more production.  I have even thought of sawing cants with the swingmill and throwing them on the LT28 to slice up.  This would help with the kerf loss.  ;)   

1.Personally I haven't had an ounce of problem from any of the 3 Lucas mill engines I've used over the last 10 years. I feel it depends how you look after stuff.
2. I haven't worn one out yet and used one for 7 years commercially only major thing I did was replace the gearbox at about the 6 year mark, but I found out that was due to how I was using it, not due to the 'life' of the gearbox. Lucas Mill solidly stand by their warranty and often have replaced components they feel should have lasted a lot longer than I experienced and outside of warranty!!!!
3. Gearbox is the single most expensive thing you'll have to spend on a Lucas, other than an engine if it becomes an issue.
4. I replace all my rollers every 12 months and drive belts as required. Now Lucas have gone to a segmented belt versus a solid V-section belt they don't seem to crack and split as often so on my first model 10 I only replaced them 1 in 2 years
5. I'm not familiar with how heavy a band mill head is to push, but the carriage on the mill moves surprisingly easy and as you aren't cutting the full width of the log for each pass I'd say it may prove to be easier.
6. If you have a market for the 1" boards, my suggestion would be to chase all those 'bigger' logs you get a hint of, bust them down with a swingmill into cants the size you want then resaw them on your bandmill. say you use a lot of 4x1, and you get an 8" swingmill cut a bunch of 4x8's then resaw then on your bandmill. You get to take advantage of those large logs and also reduced kerf of your bandmill - best of both worlds 8) ;)
Always willing to help - Allan

WoodenHead

I'm going to ask around a bit and try to get a better feel for how much a supply exists for large logs.  One logger didn't seem to think there was much out there (particularly hardwood).  He did acknowledge that they will pass on the occasional large pine because none of the mills want them.

It seems like an LT40 Super would be the way to go for smaller diameter logs (i.e. 10"-24").  Realistically that is what I am most likely to see.  And it keeps board handling at waiste level instead of picking up.  Perhaps I can come up with a slabber to slice up the really large ones into pieces for the band mill to chew on. 


Gasawyer

Woodenhead anLT40 will handle larger logs without too much trouble(10"-24" is no problem).  Get your self an alaskian chainsaw mill to get the largest logs cut into managable pieces. In my gallery are some pics from a job I did that the customer  wanted some slabbed and the rest sawn. Yes its alot of work but it takes something that you either can't move or won't fit on bandsaw and makes lumber out of it instead of fire wood. An alaskian and a used powerhead should be less than $1500 I would sugest the 36" setup. My alaskian has rails for 24"-65" cuts and a 3120 Husky.
Woodmizer LT-40hdd super hyd.,Lucas 618,Lucas 823dsm,Alaskian chainsaw mill 6',many chainsaws large and small,NH L555 skidsteer, Int. TD-9,JD500 backhoe, and International grapple truck.

Qweaver

Now that I have the Peterson I regularly get 30"+ logs.  Got 10 or so in the yard now.  I keep a big one on the saw at all times and just cut on it as needed.  I just got offered a job that has several big logs that I can not easily do on the bandmill.  But I am not as fast on the swinger as I am on the Bandmill.  I know the results of the Shootout but it's not working that way for me except on the big logs. 

I like the Peterson but it does have some flaws.  The clutch does not work consistantly. In fact, usually it does not work.  The tires and wheels are total junk.  I bought replacement tires and wheels from Tractor Supply that solved the problem but  Peterson should have made good on those.  I hope they are not still using those wheels on new machines.  But it saws well and I'm glad to have it.
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

sigidi

Quote from: Qweaver on February 10, 2013, 12:43:47 PM
Now that I have the Peterson I regularly get 30"+ logs.  Got 10 or so in the yard now.  I keep a big one on the saw at all times and just cut on it as needed.  I just got offered a job that has several big logs that I can not easily do on the bandmill.  But I am not as fast on the swinger as I am on the Bandmill.  I know the results of the Shootout but it's not working that way for me except on the big logs.

Bandmill should do better versus the swinger on all 1" stock, but if you change to 2" stock you might find it very different, and if you rip out big cants the bandmill wont be able to stack up at all.

QuoteI like the Peterson but it does have some flaws.  The clutch does not work consistantly. In fact, usually it does not work.  The tires and wheels are total junk.  I bought replacement tires and wheels from Tractor Supply that solved the problem but  Peterson should have made good on those.  I hope they are not still using those wheels on new machines.  But it saws well and I'm glad to have it.

I'm pleased it's sawing well for ya mate, but I am at a loss as to how the clutch is tempremental, my brain can't work around that? either it works or its broken, no???
Always willing to help - Allan

terrifictimbersllc

My clutch decides to work about 1 times in 100. I can remember it working right about twice in two years.  Peterson is kindly sending me some parts and instructions and I am going to return the old ones for their inspection.   I really don't like that blade spinning when at idle.  And I don't like all the jerking around when I turn off the engine seems it might be hard on the gearbox.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

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