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Broad ax question

Started by Bill_G, February 03, 2013, 05:36:46 PM

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Bill_G

I was wondering what would be the good or bad points in a double bevel vs. a single bevel ?

Dave Shepard

Double bevel is handy if you have to change from left to right handed hewing because of grain, or preference. My axe is a single bevel, right handed, and sometimes the grain wants to run the wrong way. I usually end up going to the other side of the bad grain and working in the other direction. Single is a bit easier to get the hang of than double. I'd like to get a Gransfors double, but it's not in the budget right now. A matched pair of left and right Gransfors is also out of budget, way out of budget. :D
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jimparamedic

Some heads can be hung right or left handed. I have my ax hung right handed but I have two hatchets that are hung one right and the other left handed all three are single bevel and sharp to shave. That is the plus of a single grind. check ebay and antique store. mine can from antique stores. All three were less then $100.

Jay C. White Cloud

Even'n Bill_G,

If you think you are really going to get into hand hewing you will probably want both a left and right hand (at some point,) with single bevel.  One served me well for over 30 years, (till it got stolen  :()  They reason is simple, real ones, (or I should say good ones,) have a rounded cutting edge and are ever so slightly convex.  Kinda like gouge or scoop adze.

So you wouldn't be able to use them but in one direction.  You can find many that are flat.  That isn't how they are suppose to be. 

I have been asked many times, "if that's the case why are there so many?"  Because many have been made, but only a few have been made well. 

John Neeman's, can make one to your specification. Remember, the rocker, (swoop,) is subtle.  When laid on a flat surface the non-bevel side will "wing up," ever so much on the two radiating edges of the blade. 

I would also recommend an adze, scrub plane, and fore plane with a rounded edge blade, to your arsenal, for more refined hewn surfaces.

Good Luck,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Axe Handle Hound

Quote from: Jay C. White Cloud on February 22, 2013, 08:47:44 PM
Even'n Bill_G,

One severed me well for over 30 years, (till it got stolen  :() 

If I had something severing me for 30 years I'd be happy it got stolen!    :D

Jay C. White Cloud

 :D :D :D  It did both over that many years. ;D still wish I had it, been hard to replace. Nothing hewed wood, (or me  :D) like it since...
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

D L Bahler

Or forego to adze and planes, and get a goosewing ;D

Speaking of John Neeman, he makes a very fine goosewing pattern axe modeled after my 18th century Austrian (or Pennsylvania German?) axe, a very very fine tool that never leaves my sight.

I use a left-handed goosewing for just about everything I do, but when I encounter a bad spot in the grain or a large knot that needs worked from the other side then I will use a right-handed gransfors for rough removal, then finish of smooth with my goosewing.

And on the topic of curved bits, the very old Goosewings are flat or nearly flat. The scoop is very slight if it is there at all. This is how they were supposed to be made. This just makes them harder to use, but results in a very very fine surface (which is why you do not need to finish off with a plane)

While in Switzerland, I had the opportunity to see some fantastic surface finishes achieved on interior house timbers using only a goosewing.

Dave Shepard

Either way, skip the adze. ;)
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Jay C. White Cloud

I brought up the other tools as different finishing methods.  I believe you can achieve wonderful finishes with many of these tools, by themselves or in concert with each other.  On vintage buildings, there is clear indication of this happening.  I also share, that some folks find that one tool performs better than another for them.  Having used, at one time or another, almost all of these tools, (not only European version but Asian as well,) I have a broad perspective of there different applications.  I am very fond of, as where the Dutch Amish that taught me, the adze and plan.  Of the three brothers, and one dear friend, that mentored me, 2 where Goose-wing men the other Adze.

As D.L. pointed out, on these Goose-wing the concavity is very slight.  I will note on the better one's it is always present, as I stated before, though you can't see it unless the blade is set on a flat surface.  This concavity in most Goose-wing is very minimal, maybe 1 to 3 mm at most and only at the furthest edge of the blade, so the majority of the cutting surface is flat, just as D.L. describes it.

If anyone is going to pursue this craft past the point of just novice interest, you should acquire all the traditional skill sets that form the craft of hewing and shaping trees to bolt-Bolt to Cant, then Cant to finished timber, to fully appreciate the wonders of this craft.  This includes mastering all the tools I have listed, both in use and in there care.  The reward of doing so, is boundless and most fulfilling, but if all you choose to do is use a well formed broad ax to shape a timber you will be more than happy with the results.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Dave Shepard

Quote from: Jay C. White Cloud on February 23, 2013, 03:18:49 PM




If you are going to pursue this craft past the point of just novice interest, you should acquire all the traditional skill sets that form the craft of hewing and shaping trees to bolt-Bolt to Cant, then Cant to finished timber.  This includes mastering all the tools I have listed, both in use and in there care.  The reward of doing so, is boundless and most fulfilling.

Regards,

jay

Who is this comment directed towards? I certainly hope you aren't suggesting that my involvement in timber framing is mere novice interest. I have extensive experience working with wood, from planting and pruning trees to logging, sawmilling, and hewing. My tools are well selected, prepared, and maintained for their purpose. My comment about the adze is based on my experience of people mistakenly assuming a broad axe finish was done with an adze. I'm sure that adzes are used in some cultures for finishing, I think I've seen it in Timber Framing in Tibet, but in the US neither I, nor the many people I have talked to about it, have seen any evidence of adze work for finishing timbers in historic work. I have seen many people doing it in modern work, most of them having read Eric Sloane or Jack Sobon's first book. Both Sloane and Sobon recanted their position on adzing in later works.
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D L Bahler

We are in the middle of building a log structure using traditional tools and methods, we started early last summer, and hopefully we will have the roof on this spring, and be able to use the structure for its intended purpose this summer.

We bought white pine logs (because they were available) though I would have preferred fir as the more appropriate wood for this building. All of our timber was hewn by hand using a combination of Swiss German and American methods. The favorite tools were my two goosewing style axes, one has a long handle and is used for all tasks of rough shaping. This axe is phenomenal, and this is the only tool you need if you are hewing barn timbers or timber that will be covered -dimensional accuracy is amazing with this axe, and the surface is fairly smooth.
The other is my previously described goosewing. As Jay, this particular axe is the finest example of this type of tool I have ever seen -and I've traveled in Switzerland and studied some very fine examples there.


 

The building we are putting up is built according to the ancient log building practices of the Berner Oberland (we are aiming to have a finished building that might look like a nice Alp hut may have looked around the 15th or 16th century, which is easy to do since many such examples still exist today)

One finishing tool I wish I could have (I aim to build one before I build our next building) is an Oberland tool known locally as a Fügeboum or in standard German, Fugenbaum. Literally 'jointing tree'. It is best described as a giant rabet plane. It is about 6 feet in length, and is used to straighten the corners of timber that will be joined horizontally in a log wall (no chinking, just perfectly fit and joined timbers) The space left between is finished with another plane, either a flat plane for butt joints, or a profile plane for tongue and groove joints.

This tool is the secret to the perfect log walls found throughout the region, which is one of the secrets to the incredible longevity (like, 600 years) of these solid fir buildings.

Jay C. White Cloud

QuoteIf anyone is going to pursue this craft past the point of just novice interest, you should acquire all the traditional skill sets that form the craft of hewing and shaping trees to bolt-Bolt to Cant, then Cant to finished timber, to fully appreciate the wonders of this specialized craft.  This includes mastering all the tools I have listed, both in use and in there care.  The reward of doing so, is boundless and most fulfilling, but if all you choose to do is use a well formed broad ax to shape a timber you will be more than happy with the results.

Hello David,

Sorry if you thought that was directed at you.   :-\   It was for the original poster, and just my opinion of the craft as I have known it for over 30 years.  I have gone back and corrected the language to be more general and inclusive.

QuoteMy comment about the adze is based on my experience of people mistakenly assuming a broad axe finish was done with an adze.
You are correct that many hewn surfaces have been mistakenly identified as being finished with a adze, this is true, and often done by historians running on assumptions not any skill set or experience performing the work. This includes Mr. Sloan, who back in the late 70's I had a correspondence with.  He was a wonderful illustrator, painter and author.  He was very knowledgeable about the many tools, a master collector of them, and an avid academic of Colonial life skills, however, he was not a practitioner to any great extent, as he explained it to me.

QuoteI'm sure that adzes are used in some cultures for finishing, I think I've seen it in Timber Framing in Tibet, but in the US neither I, nor the many people I have talked to about it, have seen any evidence of adze work for finishing timbers in historic work.
Now, at this time, I could conservatively say I have be in thousands of barns, and other representatives of "working," architecture, and though not common, (especially in barn wrighting-more so by the house wright,) the adze was most assuredly used.  Once you have seen the tooling marks, more than once, side by side, the smoother cleaner finish of most adze work is distinct from hewn.  Not to say that you cannot achieve a very smooth, (almost polished,) finish with a good broad ax. 

Jack is but one authority that questions the commonality of adze use, I do know this, and I'm sure that good hearted academic debate will continue on this subject for many years to come.  I will point out something I have heard more than once on this debate, even by Eric S. himself.  If the adze was not used to do such work, why are there so many examples of them in collections, antique stores and attics.  If they had not been used to refine a finish on a timber, what where they used for, because a 75 to 120 mm (~3" to 4") cutting edge has only so many places to be applied, and hewing large timbers would seem to be it, as I was taught to do.  It is also how I have seen them used in every wood working culture I know.

Regards,

jay

"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Jay C. White Cloud

Hello D.L.,

What a beautiful example of a Goose-Wing Ax, thank you for posting such a wonderful picture of one.  You can adjust what I'm about to write accordingly.  As I have stated on many of these finer examples of the tool, the concavity may have only been achieved by the grind of the bit (edge).  What you can find on the flatter (more refined,) representatives of these tools, (which are for more refined work,)  is the "toe" and "heel" (beard) is ground in such a fashion, that the "bit" (cutting edge,) will always engage the cut before any other portion of the the blade does, rending an almost perfectly flat and smooth surface.  With such as tool, the proper "bit" geometry and the skill to wheeled it, in that instance no other tool refinement of the timber is required, other than layout and joinery. This was seldom achieved by many hewers and often done with other tools, such as planes, or an adz.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

D L Bahler

regarding the adze
I learned of the adze as a joining tool. it is used to cut tenons and shape housings much like a slick might be used to clean a mortise.
only the adze allows you to do all of the shaping quickly and with a single tool.

Jay C. White Cloud

That is very true for the small members of the family.  They can be amazing in their versatility, wielded in trained or attuned hands.  It seems that every wood culture, and every craft in those cultures, have a entire family of these wonderful shaping tools.
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Dave Shepard

There are many uses for the adze that are other than for finishing timbers. Many adzes are railroad adzes, I have two that are even marked as such, one is a Boston and Maine RR, and I don't recall the other. These would be used to level rough ties for the rail plate.

Ship builders also used adzes, and I suspect many of the adzes used by timber framers came from a nautical background. Some of the uses in house and barn work (house wright and barn wright as you call them, were they not really one and the same, I wonder?), include reductions on floor joists, rafters and floor boards.

Many floor boards in old house I have seen were reduced to a common thickness only at the edges, and this was used as a gauge for adzing across the width of the board only at joist locations.

Clapboards are often joined with an adzed "scarf". I have also seen marks that were likely from an adze on the large diminished haunches on the Dutch barns I have worked on. They may also have been from a schnieck (definitely spelled that one wrong) which is the Dutch version of the slick.

I don't believe that the adze must have been used for finishing timbers solely based on their prevalence any more than I think somebody walking down the street in sagging pants and work boots has any actual intention of doing any work.
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jimparamedic

As it was told to me and this is not gospil. The broad axe was used on the ground or floor level to square long timber for beams or to be sawn into planks.

The adze was used in the air to bring joist and beams into the same plane so floors and wall plates would lay flat. Also the adze was used on curves like ships keels and ribs and the broad axe was used on the flat side. So they were used together.

Every tool can do multiple tasks but they were made to do one task really well. Like the felling axe; it was to fall trees but they were used to split wood, drive stakes, some times nails. And the will work to do the jobs of the broad axe and the adze it just does not do those jobs well.

There are stories of people building homes with just an axe. Because that is what they had so they made it work.

D L Bahler

My adze is what you might call a carpenter's adze. To me, it is a joining tool.

The bit is about 3.5" or so, maybe a little less, the handle is quite long and curved, etc.
There are a few such adzes still to be found in old families in this area, somewhere up in the barn, often misunderstood and abused by their modern owners who find them useful tools for chopping roots and such.

For example, I used my adze extensively this summer to plane the edges of timbers to be laid up together in the walls of our building -this was, in fact, a joining use. I also used the adze to trim out the housings of the special corner joints used in this type of construction.

But I have never used the adze to finish an exposed timber surface. I do not like the appearance it creates, and I find it much slower at getting the job done than my German axes



  

  

 

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi Jimparamedic,

You bet me to it... :o.  I was coming back to make a few more points, and couldn't have made them better myself.  I guess I could add that what you said is a rule of thumb, but pretty close to the truth.  The adze family of tools excellent at curved timbers, and could be why they became prevalent in any wood culture that used cures or live edge timbers in their work.

D.L.,

It looks like some excellent work you are doing.  I did note that you put your beautiful frame onto a cinder block foundation?  Why did you do that, with as much traditional hand work on the frame as you did?  Not judging, just curious.  It looks like you are truly mastering the skill sets of hewing.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

D L Bahler

about the foundation..
below grade, we have a 42 inch deep trench with a tile at the bottom, lower levels filled with rubble and a top layer filled wityh random field stone. on top of this , the ground level of the foundation is a mixture of sand and lime rammed together to form a very hard concrete.
then on top of this is concrete block, mortared with lime
on top of this is a trreated board to satisfy the county.
this is unfortunate, but we did not have the time or resources to gather limestone in order to do this the traditional way. but after the building is completed we will plaster over the blocks, so it will be ok
also, this is not a frame building. this is Bernese Blockbau, square log.

timberwrestler

I'll add my 2 cents.  I feel that the finished surface created by double bevel broad axes is significantly more scalloped than that created by a single beveled axe.  I've hewed a lot both ways, and I tend to prefer the single beveled finish.  My unfounded theory is that what is sometimes taken as an adzed hewn surface, is actually a double bevel hewn surface. 
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